Writing question: Patching holes

[Liar]

I guess this is a sign of bad authorship, but I have a little problem when I write stories - the longer and more complicated plots the merrier. And I'm kind of a fan of intricate multi character plots.

Problem is: I get sloppy. I start to lose track of characters, let readers invest empathy in them only to discover that they fade out of the story and is never mentioned again... I get space and time mixed up, so that travellers depart in the morning, and arrive at sunset - 20 minutes later... I let my characters and plot wander to the extent that there is no way in hell that I can tie all the knots sogether for that really cool ending that I had in mind...

Things like that, all the time. I tend to get forced to scrap half or even whole stories I've written, because I messed up somewhere early on. Since I sometimes come out with an end product that works, I thought I had it covered, but I recently came to the conclusion that 75% or my writing time consists of undoing too tangles plots and rewriting. Time I could spend better.

What do you do when you have written yourself into a corner, when you have characters contradicting themselves, unmatching timelines and leaps of logic too blatant to suspend that disbelief? Is there any good way to just go back, change a few magic key-words and fix the whole thing? Are there good writing methods to keep track of stuff going on? Do I need a personal assistant?

Or do none of you ever run into this problem, you lucky fucks?

#L

 

[Svenskaflicka]

When things like that happens to me, I try to do what my great idol, JKR, does for her 7-book epic.

She got herself a giant noteboard, drew a timeline on it, made 7 columns for 7 books, and then wrote in all the people that would be introduced/killed off in their places, all the new events and stuff she'd present, and every little odd detail she had to include.

Then, while writing, she goes back to check this board regularly, so that she'll not forget to send one character out of the story by a scholarship, a job offer, or death-by-Voldemort-and/or-his-minions, AND so that she'll remember to explain some riddle she hinted at two books ago.

She also says on her webpage that she goes back and re-reads her own work, making notes, to make sure that she hasn't left any loose threads before finishing the 7th book.

Works for her, and she has a huge group of fans that applaud her for her ability to hint things in one book that she further explores in another, making her fans wonder why they didn't suspect it all along.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Okay, when the story is really big and my twisted psyche is incapable of keeping it stored right, I fill a big sheet with the key points I want to hit and the character list and character transformation sheet.

An example from a non-erotic play. I had the characters, their personalities, and a list of how they were to act from Act to Act. I also labeled when their main cathartic moments were too occur.

I then had a list of the Acts and what would occur in them and later on I began to label the scenes themselves labeling what I wanted to occur in each particular section. I try to resolve as many logic breaks and stylistic breaks as I can as early as possible so that I'm not scrapping a beautiful exchange of dialogue or turn of phrase because it can't occur there. I did that in that play, resolving a difficult deus ex machina because of stage setup, by making the deus ex machina a humourous part of the play. A character named Mr. Deus has a bitter ex named Machina who causes the deus ex machina.

After that it's usually easy. I generally plan the bizarrities and plot twists ahead of time and add the quirky side character or strange moment as an add-on to the main action, sometimes rewriting a little of the future plot to make them important. And all of it is scattered over the single sheet in pure chaotic majesty.

Anyway, if you have wandering plot syndrome, that's the main thing you need to start doing. As far as rewritting when it's already down, that's tougher. You cna't do too many big fixes easily. You can slip references in certain places, change the array of times so that temporal fuck doesn't occur and if there is an unremovable deus ex machina or logic break that is just too damn integral and difficult to remove, make a joke out of it and your readers will likely forgive you for it. Beyond that, you're on your own, good luck.

 

[snooper]

As Sv'a said, it's the only way.

I have all this as a series of files on the machine. The time line and ages of characters at certain critical moments are in Excel because it does the arithmetic for me. Details of characters' names, dates of birth, descriptions at various ages, roles in different stories, together with descriptions of places are all in a Word file using tables. Another file has spare (unused) characters ready to slot in.

It all takes time, but it helps to organise ideas and to ensure consistency.

 

[Weird Harold]

I guess this is a sign of bad authorship, but I have a little problem when I write stories - the longer and more complicated plots the merrier. And I'm kind of a fan of intricate multi character plots.

For long, complicated, multi-character, multiple plotline stories, and outline (of where you intend to go and who is going to do what to whom, when,) is almost essential.

That does NOT necessarily mean you have to outline the story before you start and then adhere strictly to the outline.

It does mean that you should make notes as you write -- on paper, in another window in your word processor, or by using the comment function of MS Word's reviewing tools -- so that you know the names, actions and timing of all of your various plots.

If you build an index of characters with a reference to every appearance of that character as you write, you can then go back and edit just one character's storyline (lather, rinse and repeat for ech character until everything matches up.)

One thing that really bothers me in some long and complicated stories is an author who keeps changing the names of the characters -- often because of cutting and pasting from other stories without making the required changes to names and places.

Your problem isn't so much a problem of bad authorship, but of bad editorship. You don't have any organized way set up to check continuity and consistency when you go back to edit a story.

 

[Liar]

Re: Re: Writing question: Patching holes

One thing that really bothers me in some long and complicated stories is an author who keeps changing the names of the characters -- often because of cutting and pasting from other stories without making the required changes to names and places.

You're kidding. Does people actually do that? Seriously, that just...plain bad.


It seems that spreadsheets, character 'cards' and keeping notes on a regular basis is the key. I have tried this though, but obviously I don't quite know what to do with it.

What's funny is that I have no problem at all keeping things together, even when there are a multitude of little micro threads (seeminly insignificant things mentioned, that will play an important part in the plot later on), a whole gallery of dynamically changing characters, crazy flashback jumps in timelines and perspective... no problem at all when I write play scripts.

But as soon as I get my hands dirty with prose - novels, novellas, short stories - that part of my head stops working.

Any good resources for hands-on workable methods that I can steal?

 

[wishfulthinking]

Quick fix

The quick fix for when you write yourself into a corner, can't remember if you're coming or going, and generally lost the plot:

Post a cry for help in the editors forum or nag someone on the boards to give you a bit of editing and advice.

Otherwise, I've heard planning and plotting out stories, and maybe one day I'll give it a try...

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Re: Re: Re: Writing question: Patching holes

You're kidding. Does people actually do that? Seriously, that just...plain bad.


It seems that spreadsheets, character 'cards' and keeping notes on a regular basis is the key. I have tried this though, but obviously I don't quite know what to do with it.

What's funny is that I have no problem at all keeping things together, even when there are a multitude of little micro threads (seeminly insignificant things mentioned, that will play an important part in the plot later on), a whole gallery of dynamically changing characters, crazy flashback jumps in timelines and perspective... no problem at all when I write play scripts.

But as soon as I get my hands dirty with prose - novels, novellas, short stories - that part of my head stops working.

Any good resources for hands-on workable methods that I can steal?

page of paper man, i'm telling you. You stick to a single sheet so that you don't box yourself in too much and yet have room to put the big shit and when you want it too happen once it's set in stone. Don't need nothin' but that.

 

[sincerely_helene]

Multiple dream sequences

(Or a bad acid trip)

 

[Liar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Writing question: Patching holes

page of paper man, i'm telling you. You stick to a single sheet so that you don't box yourself in too much and yet have room to put the big shit and when you want it too happen once it's set in stone. Don't need nothin' but that.

So you say. But how do I navigate the blighter? It may sound easy and obvious to you, but I just might be 'page of paper' dyslectic.

#L

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Multiple dream sequences

NOOOOO!! It's second only to a deus ex machina for overcliched cop-outs. Don't go to the dark side.

Unless you find a way to make it really f-ing funny, that is.

 

[sincerely_helene]

I somehow knew I would attract that response

 

[Liar]

Don't go to the dark side.

Funny to see you say that.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Writing question: Patching holes

So you say. But how do I navigate the blighter? It may sound easy and obvious to you, but I just might be 'page of paper' dyslectic.

#L

You set up in large letters or underline the sections: major plot points, character progression, temporal progression, etc... The single page makes sure that if you're searching, you don't waste too much time reaming through page after page or your collection of bulletin boards. If the paper itself is the problem, you can use Notepad or a similar application running alongside your Word Processor. Personally, I dislike doing this, but it may be easier for you.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Funny to see you say that.

Hey I don't need to tempt anyone anymore. I've got lawyers and marketers doing that for me. Besides, I already own her soul, so it'd be silly for her to return.

 

[sincerely_helene]

Too contrived for my tastes, but nonetheless I agree it is better then my dream cliche. The very thought of all that organizing just seems to suck the spontanious fun out of writing though.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Too contrived for my tastes, but nonetheless I agree it is better then my dream cliche. The very thought of all that organizing just seems to suck the spontanious fun out of writing though.

That's why I stress that the sheet be singular in number. I only use it for my doubleplus-long works when I'm having trouble keeping track of my fancies. For my short fiction, it's almost all improv baby. Write only as much as you need to keep track and feel free to toss it if the story heads on a different highway. The sheet is just a marker, a map when you need it.

 

[sincerely_helene]

Men read maps now????

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I guess this is a sign of bad authorship, but I have a little problem when I write stories - the longer and more complicated plots the merrier. And I'm kind of a fan of intricate multi character plots.

Problem is: I get sloppy. I start to lose track of characters, let readers invest empathy in them only to discover that they fade out of the story and is never mentioned again... I get space and time mixed up, so that travellers depart in the morning, and arrive at sunset - 20 minutes later... I let my characters and plot wander to the extent that there is no way in hell that I can tie all the knots sogether for that really cool ending that I had in mind...

Things like that, all the time. I tend to get forced to scrap half or even whole stories I've written, because I messed up somewhere early on. Since I sometimes come out with an end product that works, I thought I had it covered, but I recently came to the conclusion that 75% or my writing time consists of undoing too tangles plots and rewriting. Time I could spend better.

What do you do when you have written yourself into a corner, when you have characters contradicting themselves, unmatching timelines and leaps of logic too blatant to suspend that disbelief? Is there any good way to just go back, change a few magic key-words and fix the whole thing? Are there good writing methods to keep track of stuff going on? Do I need a personal assistant?

Or do none of you ever run into this problem, you lucky fucks?

#L

I have never run into exactly this problem, I tend to be able to keep everything straight in my head as I write. But I have a bad habit of thinking of something new, or cool, or just that I want to add, that hasn't been mentioned previously. Rather than go back, I often just pick up with the new idea and run with it, promising to go back later & write in the neccessary set up for it.

If you can't be bothered to block it all out before you start, you might try what I do in stories that are long enough to include 2 or three such additions mid stream.

I just take a sheet of notebook paper & make a flow chart as I read. In the first read through I will box out location changes, if it dosen't flow, I fix it till the read through works with a flow chart. Then I go back & do it again for characters. A third time through, to pick up anything that's nagging me usually cleans it up and irons out the detail inconsitancies for me.

-Colly

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Men read maps now????

Yup, or at least half-demon freaks do. The rest read maps behind women's backs. They read them almost all day for pleasure. It just happens they drive to cool down from all that mapreading and hate to interrupt it to read a repeat of an old map.

 

[sincerely_helene]

I knew it just reeked of conspiracy.

Do you also put the toilet seat down when you are finished and then rush back to put it up again just before we go to use it?



We now return you to your regularily scheduled topic.

 

[oggbashan]

When one of my stories runs into plot/character difficulties I save it and leave it for at least a week.

Then I print it off, sit down with a cup of coffee and a red ball-point pen. I mark all the difficulties and try to work out a solution. If I can't, the story stays incomplete until I have writer's block on something else.

Then I print it off...

I try to have a relationship map. The centre circle is the main character or narrator. I draw lines to link to the other characters' circles to show contacts, relationships, interaction:

A (centre circle) was married to B. A has a one-night stand with C who shares a flat with D who is in the same golf club as B so B gets to know about A's one-night stand with C and is concerned because B knows that C is supposed to be in a semi-permanent relationship with E...

It looks much simpler with circles and labelled lines. Inside the circle can be written some characteristics of each character.

Even so, I still get messed up stories.

Og

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: Re: Writing question: Patching holes

You're kidding. Does people actually do that? Seriously, that just...plain bad.

Yeah, some lazy authors do C&P from previous stories and/or other authors' works. I don't see that much here at Lit, but other sites with lower literary standards are rife with such stories.

It seems that spreadsheets, character 'cards' and keeping notes on a regular basis is the key. I have tried this though, but obviously I don't quite know what to do with it.

What's funny is that I have no problem at all keeping things together, ... no problem at all when I write play scripts.

But as soon as I get my hands dirty with prose - novels, novellas, short stories - that part of my head stops working.

If you can write a play with no problems, try writing your story as a play first, and then "novelize" it -- i.e. use the "play" as your outline and flesh out the stage directions into narration.

 

[Boota]

When I'm writing a novel I dedicate a notebook to that novel and use it continuously. I go back and re-read chapters and make notes over each chapter. My notes include new characters introduced, plot items that I need to keep track of, and ideas for moving the story from that space into the next. I have specific ideas about where I want to go when I'm writing, but I am pretty spontaneous in how I get there. So as not to let the spontaneity get out of hand and get me lost, I keep my notes.

For one of the novels I'm currently working on I have a timeline that I am following. This is the first time I have needed that device, but it is helping immensely.

 

[carsonshepherd]

I have tried all these things and none of them really work. When things get too complex, I split them. Write one chapter about one set of characters, then another about the other, blah blah. Once I have them and all their stories written out, I blend them into the right config.

Does this work for me? sometimes, but also, I've never finished a novel! I think that's more me losing interest than losing track though...