Writers Groups Pro/Con?

[Ray Dario]

I wanted to start this thread because a discussion arose in the "Story Feedback" forum and I thought this would be a better place for it.

In short I recommended that a new author find and join a writers critique group to help improve their writing. I am an active member of one online and I find it very helpful.

I see many writers here starving for feedback from their readers, most of them are interested in new viewpoints and good constructive critisism. I believe that these are things that good writers groups offer.

Does anyone have opinions about critique groups, either online or offline? Do they help or inhibit writing?

I would love to have a good open discussion about this.

Ray

 

[vgrey]

I have participated in writing workshops offline before and I was amazed at how much it helps a writer to get responses from other people reading their work. Even an inexperienced or uninformed opinion will provide a useful perspective.

In the end the writer is responsible only to themselves for what they write. The great thing about all of that wonderful feedback is that you can ignore all of it if you so decide.

The only exception is when you write something that only you are going to read. (which can happen quite a bit)

I read that thread that prompted you to start this one Ray, and I didn't get the feeling that p_p man was really bashing writer's workshops so much as he was pointing out that the final decision was the writer's. Basically, too thine own self be true, was what I got out of it.

VG

 

[KillerMuffin]

I think they're invaluable, but darned if I can find one.

 

[cymbidia]

I think them very useful, yes. However, since i'm only writing erotica/porn at the moment, and only BDSM-themed stuff at that, AND usually pretty edgy to boot, i'm feeling understandably inhibited about approaching any group not composed of people who write sorta the same kinda stuff that i write. So i second Muffin's exasperation: darned if i can find one.

 

[nitengale]

Well I just got started with a writers workshop and will be getting reviews on my writings....so I have yet to explore the benefits. I do hope they are there!

 

[Ray Dario]

I agree, it would be very nice to have an erotic literature based writers critique group, and I'm with you guys there doesn't seem to be one around.

I am in a Science Fiction/Fantasy/Horror online group and I think it is wonderful. If I find an erotic writers critique group I'll let everyone know.

and VGrey, you are probably right, I over-reacted to the ego comment.

So far the comments are all pretty positive, which makes for a pretty boring discussion, maybe someone will come along and play the devil's advocate!

Ray

 

[CreamyLady]

Another point of view:

I don't do well in groups. I loathe groups. I especially loathe the idea of anything that is written by committee, which is what happened when a group got hold of my work. True, it happened during my first go-round in college, but I've avoided any such situation since.

I've even put off getting editing help because, frankly, I don't want to have another personality involved in my work. Selfish and egotistical, possibly, and I'm working on it. I'm not there yet (thank you, Mistress Hecate!), but I'm close.

I've received emails for all my stories. They were positive; I assume those who hated the stories either didn't feel the need to say so or voted a low score or didn't vote at all. However, having gone through the initial anxiety, the need for outside approval, and the misery of competition, I'd just rather go on writing for me. It's a lot easier on my nerves.

 

[p_p_man]

Hello Ray...I found you

Copied from Story Feedback wriiten in response to Sateema's post

"Feedback is useful but...
...I once belonged to a writer's discussion group but couldn't handle the massive egos I found there.

Nowadays I write only for myself. I've found that I'm the best judge of whether one of my stories is good enough for publication or whether it's a borderline case.

I love having feedback and I do receive it on a fairly regular basis but I wouldn't lose any sleep if I didn't receive any at all. The enjoyment I get out of my work is in the fact that a magazine publishes it or Literotica posts it and, more recently, Literotica's Top Lists Category (but I put that down to the competitiveness that's in us all).

You can write your own feedback if you're totally honest with yourself. Read other peoples' stories compare them with your own and - hey presto you have feedback!

All I'm trying to say with this rambling post is don't get too hooked up on it. If you enjoy writing, and you obviously do (and incidentally I thought your work was very good - but I do agree with Mickie's point about loosening up slightly) then continue. Everything eventually comes good. Writer's blocks don't occur because you're writing for fun, improvements can be made to your work by relentless, and strictly honest, self criticism and plots begin occuring to you even in the most unlikliest of places and when you're doing the most mundane and unrelated tasks. My "The Chess Game" came to me completely out of the blue during a business meeting I had last week. And no the meeting was not related in any way to my writing, so no deep hidden meanings there.

Enjoy it, have fun and feedback will follow.

Almost forgot - this is not so much feedback but something you might like to bear in mind. Geoffery Archer the English author once said during a TV interview that he didn't write novels, he told stories.

And when you think about it that's what it's all about..."

Ray,

Since writing the above I've re-examined my thoughts on the matter and cannot find any change in my attitude towards writers' discussion groups. I did give the one I attended a fair crack of the whip (staying with them for almost a year) but at the end of the day I wrote the way I was comfortable with and followed my own route. Before I joined the group I had been published on a fairly regular basis and so was not exactly a novice but afterwards as I listened to and endeavoured to follow some of the advice offered, my writing became stilted and far too rigid to be enjoyable to the reader and far less enjoyable to write, which was reflected in the increase in rejection slips I received. I found myself worrying more about syntax than following a cracking good plot I'd started. Without putting to fine a point on the matter some of the more severe criticisms and extreme advice came from those who had never had anything in print!

My advice to anyone starting out or who has been in the game for a short while is, don't listen too earnestly to others ( hopefully you'd walk your own path anyway regardless of "advice" - including mine) If you want to follow some of things you are told, do so, but not for long. Just because some people have been around longer than others It doesn't mean that they know any better.

Write for yourself and if you like it it's good. The only advice/criticism you should be heeding is that from an editor. Now that is truly unbiased.

 

[p_p_man]

My thoughts precisely Creamy Lady

After posting my last reply I saw that you had posted your piece on the matter. So I'll add a postscript to mine.

Feedback in itself can be dangerous. Like you I receive some very nice and pleasant comments about my writing words like "fantastic", "superb" and "when are you writing again?" spring to mind, but too much of a good thing leads to complacency. I know my work isn't fantastic or superb or whatever and so I accept the feedback as proof that the readers who sent it like my style.

But then I have no argument with that I do as well!

 

[Cockatoo]

There's more to groups than feedback

I've been in lots of writer's groups (none for my nasty filthy stuff, though), and there are lots of variables that go into it being good or bad.

In one or two of the groups I've joined over the years, the feedback was lousy and/or useless, but it was good for me anyway because I had an audience that would talk to me and keep me honest about writing every day. The experience of community helps a lot more than you'd think in this oddly solitary endeavor of ours.

So, when I'd get frustrated with something, I wouldn't simply abandon it or quit for the day. I'd take it in a different direction, or work on something else, just so I'd have something new to bring to the group. It kept me productive, even if I couldn't use the feedback or the perspectives they offered.

To be honest, that's part of why I'm posting here. I like having an audience, not just writing for therapy. And, I know that there are one or two out there who are waiting for my new stuff.

 

[Ray Dario]

I agree Cockatoo, the group I am in has much more to offer than the critiqes, although I do find them helpful in showing me weak spots in my writing that I need to work on.

They have writers resouces, which include articles on how to get published, what format editors want submissions in and so forth. Valuable information for beginning writers.

They also offer you the opportunity to read what other struggling writers are working on. This helps because as I critique their work, I can often see the same mistakes in my own writing. I wouldn't have seen it otherwise.

I DO STRONGLY agree with P_P_Man's assertion that we are all the final authority on our own work, and I hope that I never allow my work to get stilted because of worrying too much about what other people think. I have noticed my writing slip in quality at times when I get too many positive comments. Funny how that works.

As far as feedback being dangerous, I guess it can be, like I said above, by making you too cocky or causing you to change something that was good. But not getting feedback can keep you from seeing something you may be doing wrong too. So I guess I believe there is a fine line there and P_P_Man's suggestion of "To thine own self be true" should be your guiding light.

Thanks for all the opinions and discussion. This is great!

Ray

 

[Mickie]

Feedback is invaluable, if, like everything else you see and hear in the world, it is taken with a grain of salt. Some people just won't like your work, and other's will like it even if you consider it awful. Just like every other writer, I love positive feedback. To have someone tell me how great I am is definite ego boost. But too much is too much, like wine at a romantic dinner for two. I want to know why those who didn't like it, didn't like it. And those are the people who shrug, vote, and move on to the next site. It isn't worth their time to comment. That's why feedback from other authors is far more important to me. People who are in the same boat, so to speak. Hearing bad things is a goad. Do better. You can.

Discussion groups can spawn real growth as a writer because you hear more than "Love it. Do more." or "Hated it. Don't quit your day job." You hear from writers who don't really give a damn about your subject. They care about the mechanics.

Now my story. I've been working on a novel with a friend. I caution you not to do this. Personalities get in the way. (All right, mine is in the way. SHE says so, anyway.) The novel is all but finished, last draft, etc. She backs off of the writing part and takes on the feedback, editor, etc. I continue plogging along, trying to seam it together. She says -- 'Good. Keep going.' to each installment I send of the final draft. I KNOW there are problems and try to point out what I need. She says 'You think too much.' I sigh and let it sit. A good writer's group would have tried to help figure out what I'm grousing about. If one person can't help, then someone else will. Yes, I've found some of the problems on my own, and she agrees with me when I'm finished. Silly me. I think too much. Bah.

Okay, so enough of that, but it still stands that a group of similar minded people critiquing your work is much better than the opinion of a friend, no matter how well intentioned. It pulls out the best in you, and forces you to look at your work objectively instead of emotionally.

Thanks for listening
Mick

 

[nitengale]

I'm just looking to be adopted by someone who has the time to help a struggling beginner...someone who has REAL time to look, read, review, comment, instruct, etc. It's not a big wish...just a little one. Tiny.

 

[Mickie]

Adoption

Nitengale's adoption thought is a good one. However, who decides who is experienced enough to adopt a fledgling? And who decides what fledgling is? Personally, I've been writing since I was four. (Gram LOVED my picture stories! *g*) Most authors here have been writing something since childhood, I would think. And having had something published isn't a good definition, either. There's plenty of books on the shelves that I wouldn't read past the first few pages.

It sounds to me like a lot of work to find 'parents', and no one is going to drop out of the sky with an offer. Mentors are not chosen, they happen, and its as much of personality thing as a writing clinic for two. Groups offer so much more in terms of spotting problem areas or different ideas.

While I agree that to have an adopted 'writer-parent' would be heaven, I'm afraid that I'm far too realistic to expect anyone to commit to something that doesn't give them fantastic benefits as well. The best suggestion I can give with the structure as it is on this board is to review someone else's writing, then specify that you would like to have them review your own work. Tit for tat, on an individual basis. Give and you shall receive.

With that, I'm off to play some more. A free afternoon is worth its weight in gold. Thanks for listening.
Mick

 

[p_p_man]

I just wouldn't dare adopt someone who is just starting out. I would be too worried that as my comments, critiques or advice may be taken literally by the fledgling author I could be destroying a rising talent far superior to my own.

The way I started was to go to my local library and completely absorb myself in self-help books on how to become a writer. I found I could, quietly at home, make my own notes, discover how to get published, what editors look for in a manuscript (and they look for different things depending on the magazine they're editing), how to format a submission and even the practical side of writing like finding an agent. The feedback came in the shape of rejection slips and advice from editors (and if you show some promise for the future they are quite happy to give advice - after all they have a business to run). I tried different genres, Romantic Fiction one moment and Horror the next. And do you know what? As my output increased my work improved and so did the enjoyment I had in writing it.

It's like that story about Gary Player making a hole in one when a voice from the crowd shouted "Lucky shot Gary" to which he replied "Yeah its funny how the more I practice the luckier I get"

It has taken a long time and a lot of hard work to reach this far but I know I'm not going to be the author of the century and so I think I've probably reached as far as I'm going to get.

No fledglings I wouldn't have the courage, apart from passing on small snippets of information and leaving you to figure it all out, to take anyone under my wing.

Re-reading the above I sound as if I write full time. I don't. It's a hobby which gives me a lot of pleasure. a bit of extra money and a lot of relaxation. I do have a day job!

 

[Ray Dario]

I've been thinking alot about the "Adoption" idea here. It isn't quite the same, I guess, but your relationship with your volunteer editor could almost be like that.

Some editors are willing to "Take you under their wing" so to speak, some are not as willing. My advice is to search around for an editor that you hit it off with and develop that relationship. It isn't quite the same as being adopted but you can learn a lot from the excellent editors that are here on literotica.

Ray

 

[KillerMuffin]

I have set myself up on the site as an editor. I offer only two things, a natural ease with the mechanics of the language that some people need, and the ability, as a reader, to articulate why I like or dislike something. Nothing else. I do not consider myself a professional writer (haven't earned money for it yet), nor do I consider myself the be all end all knowledge. Even though I usually act like I know everything. That's just one of my many character flaws. I don't like the adopt a writer idea, it just rubs me the wrong way. I have an online friend I speak with who also writes here. We bounce ideas off of each other when plots move slow, or characters don't behave, or we're stuck. We look for typos and run-on sentences. She points out where my characters need more clearly understood motivation and I point out where her characters get just a tidge out of character. She tells me when I'm done with the story. I don't always recognize that part. It's a good relationship, I'm very glad I have it because she's extremely intelligent, a gifted writer, and an excellent grammarian. I try to hold up my end. *sigh*

Different writers need different things from other people. Some writers just need someone to read it, anything else is unnecessary. Other writers don't even need that much. Some writers need feedback simply to "fix" whatever may be wrong with the story. Things that may make it better like more character development, complete sentences, not using "started" every other verb. Some writers only need help with where they are confusing to the reader. Some writers need validation for their writing, to be told it's good and other encouragement otherwise they won't write.

Writer's groups are invaluable, depending on the writer and the group they get into. Obviously someone needing constant encouragement won't benefit from a group where the only thing the group does is make sure no one has typos.

It just depends on the writer.

 

[Madame Pandora]

This is going to sound really arrogant...

Lord, I know how this will sound, but oh well.

My problem with the handful of writer's groups I've joined over the years is that...frankly, most of the people in them cannot write well. Inevitably, it got to a point where it was obvious I was on one level and they were on another and I ended up playing "teacher" to everyone else. I don’t have time for that.

Plus, you have to have a strong sense of your writing to be part of a group. You have to be able to recognize what may need to be improved in your work, and what is just the opinion of others. I welcome all criticism, but I don't pander to it.

For example, recently, I got two emails on the same story. One said I used too much detail, the other said I used not enough. I am pretty damn happy with the amount of detail used in the story and I think they're both wrong. However, I welcome the opinions. And, had they said something specifically needed more detail or less, I would have focused in and reevaluated THAT particular element.

Any focus group/critique group should not be a "dictative" element of a writer's work, but a "suggestive" element. I have been devastated to suggest things and have writers alter their own work without a second thought. Always makes me want to go "Wait...wait...wait...are you NUTS? That's just MY opinion!" Which is another reason I am hesitant to join groups. For some reason, because I express myself boldly, others sometimes have a tendency to shrug and go along with what I say, and I don't want to exert that kind of influence over someone else's writing.

I would LOVE to be part of a group where I could get and offer negative and positive criticism from people who I felt were talented enough to be my "peers" but, often, I find there are many more people who WANT to write and less who actually CAN.

Some people are wonderful editors, but lousy writers. Some people are great writers, but lousy editors. Some people write and edit well, but have difficulty offering constructive criticism.

I think good and valuable writers' groups are few and far between. If I ever found a good one I'd grasp onto it with both hands and never let go, but all my attempts thus far have met with unimpressive results.

MP

 

[Ray Dario]

Hmmm, well MP I surely don't know which level you would consider me to be on, probably don't want to know, but I agree with much of what you said. Especially the part about writers groups being suggestive not dictative. I thought that was a given.

Any suggestions I recieve about my work are immediatly taken with a grain of salt, except when it is from an editor who says "I want to publish your story and pay you buttloads of money, but you need to change ..." These guys I listen too. Everyone else I look at their suggestions and review my story and make up my own mind.

Back to the subject, I am in a good group. Email me and I'll give you the URL. There are people of different levels of expertise and talent in the group but overall it is a good group. It is an online group, because I had the same experience with RT groups. You always had the one or two arrogant assholes who loused it up for everyone else, and then you also had the one or two neophytes who really just wanted someone to tell them how wonderful they were. With the online group, I get critiques from a wide variety of people and I don't have to listen to any whining. Best of all worlds to me. Except that I have to submit a critique every week, which is hard to keep up with during those busy times.

Okay time to step down off my soapbox again.

Ray