Writerly question.

[Colleen Thomas]

I have a story in mind, that I think requires me to try a new technique. I need the narration...realy everything, to be somewhat detached from the main character. Not as detached as hemingway, but much more so than what I usually write.

Has anyone here worked with a sort of detached 3rd person POV? Any tips on how to kep the story engrossing and moving, without geting too close to the Protag?

For specifics, it's a sci-fi story, with some air combat sequences wehre I can kep it detached, I've done those before. But I also plan some more personal scenes where I'm not sure how to keep the detached POV, without looseing the audience.

 

[impressive]

Bel & I have been writing in 3rd omniscient. It's difficult.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Bel & I have been writing in 3rd omniscient. It's difficult.

Hey Imp

Do y'all tie the POV closely to the characters? Or is it more like an observer, just watching wwhat's going on?

 

[impressive]

Hey Imp

Do y'all tie the POV closely to the characters? Or is it more like an observer, just watching wwhat's going on?

It's in between. We stay out of their heads in terms of those italicized thoughts -- but the narrator is obviously aware of them.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

It's in between. We stay out of their heads in terms of those italicized thoughts -- but the narrator is obviously aware of them.

I'mnot trying to make the character mysterious, but she is a loner and aloof. I would like the naration to help build that quality in her. To help make the reader cognizant of how she is aperson apart. I don't even know if it's a workable idea, but that's my aim.

 

[neonlyte]

I have a story in mind, that I think requires me to try a new technique. I need the narration...realy everything, to be somewhat detached from the main character. Not as detached as hemingway, but much more so than what I usually write.

Has anyone here worked with a sort of detached 3rd person POV? Any tips on how to kep the story engrossing and moving, without geting too close to the Protag?

For specifics, it's a sci-fi story, with some air combat sequences wehre I can kep it detached, I've done those before. But I also plan some more personal scenes where I'm not sure how to keep the detached POV, without looseing the audience.

It does require a discipline, particularly if you are used to writing in 1st person. If your 3rd is dealing with the generality of things, the overall field, explaining the why and how, it shouldn't be too difficult for someone of your talent. The problem arises (for me) when I want to deal with the charactors thoughts and overview, and I've found the easiest way to do this is to link it direct to the personal scenes, it keeps the logic of the flow, otherwise you run risk of confusing the reader. Try to maintain protag's 3rd perspective within dialogue sequences, penesive reflection, that type of thing. It easier then to step outside of the personal to the general and your story flow is punctuated by patches of personal story. Doubt whether that helps, there are so many ways of working.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Hmm, I write 3rd person omniscent and 3rd person omniscent wanderer all the time. The best way to learn is to look at sci-fi or fantasy and note how the author's use 3rd person omniscent.

If you want detachment, avoid going in the protagonist's head. Use descriptors about their facial expression. The best idea would be to think of them as a supporting, yet key character and write them like you would write that character. Think of them like you would the main love interest and you will thus write them intimately, yet detached.

Though for most of the detachment, the key will be the tone. A detached narrator in itself will likely carry itself over in a detached character. Watch your tone.

 

[3113]

Has anyone here worked with a sort of detached 3rd person POV? Any tips on how to kep the story engrossing and moving, without geting too close to the Protag?

Is this 3rd preson omniscient (switches view point from character to character) or 3rd person selective (one character's pov, but instead of "I" you're using "He")? I'm assuming 3rd person selective.

What you really seem to be talking about here is not how to do 3rd person--but how to stylize your writing to reflect a theme of detachment and isolation. Hemmingway really is your best example of how to achieve this. You go less into the character's feeling and thoughts about what is happening around them and keep descriptions and action factual.

Instead of: "The grass was a vibrant mint green"--suggesting the energy and joy the protagonist gets from seeing it, you write, 'The grass was very green."

Likewise when she sees people--"He smiled at her. She nodded back." Instead of, "He smiled at her, making her pulse jump. Nervously, she nodded back."

You can also use this to your advantage by going into more detail/thoughts when it comes to non-human and non-natural things, making her seem more robotic (or Vulcan if you're a Star Trek fan). "The engines were powered by a photon drive requring...." (fill in some very hard science here). If she saw a dead body, she would focus, perhaps, on the wound and contemplate what weapon might have made it, rather than focusing herself (and us) on the dead man's agonized face, etc.

Let us into her head when what she's thinking is very detatched (hard science), and keep us out of her head when it might involve something human and emotional.

How to keep it engrossing? Two ways:
1) Action and plot and fascinating science (hey, always worked for the pulps!)
2) Give us something from others around her? If they're emotional when she's not, if we overhear them talking, etc., then we might get engrossed in the contrast. Putting it another way, Mr. Spock isn't alone on the ship--it's full of humans who can't figure him out, who get emotional when he doesn't . While they're crying and weeping and throwing up on seeing the dead body, he's thinking about what made the wound. Instant separation and isolation.

This includes sex. Scientific terms detatch. "Penis" instead of "Cock" will create a sense of detatchment even if it still arouses the reader.

Does that help?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Hmmm.....this is helpful to me too, 3113. Even my 3rd person is generally close to a main character/hero/protagonist, although lesser characters' perspectives are shown. Very useful.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I'mnot trying to make the character mysterious, but she is a loner and aloof. I would like the naration to help build that quality in her. To help make the reader cognizant of how she is aperson apart. I don't even know if it's a workable idea, but that's my aim.

Oh, mystery! A nice touch of enigma. That could be fun. Yep, I'd take Luc's and 3113's advice about this.

 

[gauchecritic]

If you're doing third person Colly and you need the main character to be aloof then you have indeed got a good way of working it but, there is no real need to keep the readers from identifying with her, which is what you seem to be implying.

Like you say, when it's action you're describing or plot details then detachment is quite easy, because action and plot don't have emotions but when you're dealing with people they do. The way you describe the protag. doesn't seem to need an emotionless droid rather a person who works hard at not betraying their feelings. This, is the key.

The kind of words you use to describe those emotions. Similar to 3113's idea but more subtle. (and a lot more difficult to pass off)

A character might guard their emotions and be afraid of discovery but an aloof character would never betray their emotions and they would flush angrily at discovery.

I'm not entirely sure if I've put this over correctly but similarly to Luc's view it seems to be a matter of tone. Descriptive rather than emotive.

In a breathless rush the protagonist carromed about the vacuuming stairwell frantic with haste.

In ill-judged momentum the protagonist fell about the vacuuming stairwell, speed her only ally.

Not quite but gives you some idea.

 

[R. Richard]

Has anyone here worked with a sort of detached 3rd person POV? Any tips on how to kep the story engrossing and moving, without geting too close to the Protag?

For specifics, it's a sci-fi story, with some air combat sequences wehre I can kep it detached, I've done those before. But I also plan some more personal scenes where I'm not sure how to keep the detached POV, without looseing the audience.

I generally write my novels with a main, 1st person point of view. I then use 3rd person point of view to contrast what the main character sees with what the other person sees. In your scenario, I might have the main character observe an air combat situation from her point of view. I would then layer that with the point of view of the person actually engaged in the air combat. Later, I might have the two characters discuss the situation to contrast the experience from two [or more] points of view.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Has anyone here worked with a sort of detached 3rd person POV? Any tips on how to kep the story engrossing and moving, without geting too close to the Protag?

I have one I've been working on for quite some time where the main character is pretty much detatched, emotionally I mean. I don't know if I've managed to succeed with it so far, but I think I'm doing fairly well, and it's even written in the 1st person. Perhaps my advice might help you, maybe not.

For specifics, it's a sci-fi story, with some air combat sequences wehre I can kep it detached, I've done those before. But I also plan some more personal scenes where I'm not sure how to keep the detached POV, without looseing the audience.

I'd Say the people here have given you fairly good advice, and to add to it (though you already know this particular part of what I have to say) I'd say the best thing to do is to always follow your instincts. Trying to impose on the natural flow of the story, or more specifically, to the way the story flows out, can lead to a poor result.

I don't see that writing this way should be so difficult. It seems to me that most of how the reader sees the characters, or more how the writer characterizes, can come down to many things besides the thoughts in their heads and the writing stating simply their beliefs. Style, meaning the way the words are written, not the point of view, can come strongly into play here. I'd advise you to keep the sentences short and simple. Keep the descriptions brief yet too the point. Overindulgence by the author tends to bring the readers too close to the story, therefore bringing them too close to the character. That closeness might invade the character's space, destroying the attachment you're trying to create. Avoid adding meaningless detail to the story. Mentioning things outside of the point would again seem to be too indulgent. You'll probably have to keep the reader's attention wondering what will happen next, at times when the story is strongly focused on the main character.

When I say that above, I'm referring to how you write for the main character. I think, to sum that up (or perhaps to add to it; I'm not sure which) I should say that I feel those things will keep the readers from finding things within the character to relate to. It would probably be wise not to use this technique with all the characters, though, like 3113 may have been saying (I'll always be careful not to assume I understand fully ). Using the other characters' thoughts in your favor, and using a more complete undetatched writing style, complete with longer sentences and introspective statements, might help to place that character apart. Create a contrast in short.

I'm working in too many windows at once, so perhaps I should stop writing here. i may be back to say something else, since I don't know where my train of thought left off here.

Q_C

 

[HeyNonnyNonny]

I know it isn't the same as being entirely detatched, but have you thought about writing in a 3rd person selective and simply switching the character who you "tie" your narrative to?

I think this might be not only easier to write, but also easier and potentially more erotic to read. However, it isn't the same thing, and your idea is certainly more original.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Thanks all for the responses

I don't want to do a hemmingway, because to me that's not detached, it's impersonal. The difference, I am sure, is in my head, but I can feel it.

I will Try to stay out of my character's head, I think that is probably the best way to achieve what I want, if it's achievable.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I know it isn't the same as being entirely detatched, but have you thought about writing in a 3rd person selective and simply switching the character who you "tie" your narrative to?

I think this might be not only easier to write, but also easier and potentially more erotic to read. However, it isn't the same thing, and your idea is certainly more original.

Though that can work too. It sounds similar to some of the stuff I've done in the past.

 

[BlackSnake]

...
Has anyone here worked with a sort of detached 3rd person POV? Any tips on how to kep the story engrossing and moving, without geting too close to the Protag?

...

Well, I'm worth about two cents...

Make sure that you only write things that are important to the story. Do not do flash backs and background. Get your actors acting. Start with the fight scene. Avoid; "he did this because..." Keep your timing straight. Remember its a short story and not a novel. Get to the point.

There...two cents

 

[BlackSnake]

Hey Imp

Do y'all tie the POV closely to the characters? Or is it more like an observer, just watching wwhat's going on?

Think of it like listening to baseball on the radio. The reader only knows what you tell them. You need to be clear. Use sentence structure to dictate the rhythm.

Again and again, she smacked him. Tearing at his shirt begging him to show more emotion.