Writer query: When do pop references SNAP, CRACKLE, POP?

[CharleyH]

Sorry, this is not a looner thread.

I am so into pop culture when I write and I love adding little descriptions (sparingly after certain quotes of dialogue like "Defend from what? Imaginary weapons of mass destruction?” he said in a tone so similar to Homer Simpson that I could ...") and using references to music and movies to set an atmosphere and to give my characters a real life and present day (whether in the year 1970 or 2006) feel, not to mention to give them a third dimension.

Lets face it, we are all guilty of using and sometimes abusing pop culture.

Yet, as an author? When do pop culture references become too much? When are they overused, and are they even necessary?

Any opinion about pop culture is a great one. I am very interested in hearing your ops on this topic.

Cheers.

 

[CharleyH]

WriteResearch: When the library just doesn't cut the cliche' cake

oopsie

 

[neonlyte]

A while ago I asked about library research as a lost art. Today I face a new dilemma: research that cannot be had or found from books and is outside your experience.

Where do you find the fodder? I am currently writing queries for interview requests from people, and I don't expect to get them, but well, I have my devious ways.

Do you or would you do an interview to make your story as accurate as possible if you could not find the research?

Edit to because it's a lame yes or no question: How do or would you go about getting that interview, particularly from a near inaccessible source?

I can't answer your first post - I may be guilty of using 'pop' culture references, but I wouldn't knowingly be aware of them.

On the second - yes, I've interviewed people, in connection with a novel project, to obtain information not in the public domain. So happened that the person I interviewed e-mailed me today offering to proof read the specific chapters for historical accuracy. In return, I'm proof reading the English translation of the technical book he's writing. (Even the best translators can screw colloqualism).

How did I go about? Tangentially, fencing until we agreed we had common ground and could talk confidently and openly. Since the topic we were discussing was criminal, I guess my power of persuassion counted for something.

 

[CharleyH]

I can't answer your first post - I may be guilty of using 'pop' culture references, but I wouldn't knowingly be aware of them.

On the second - yes, I've interviewed people, in connection with a novel project, to obtain information not in the public domain. So happened that the person I interviewed e-mailed me today offering to proof read the specific chapters for historical accuracy. In return, I'm proof reading the English translation of the technical book he's writing. (Even the best translators can screw colloqualism).

How did I go about? Tangentially, fencing until we agreed we had common ground and could talk confidently and openly. Since the topic we were discussing was criminal, I guess my power of persuassion counted for something.

Apologies - I was talking as I was posting - these are two different threads. I will defer your post to a new thread.

 

[Liar]

Pop culture references is a bit of a gamble. On on hand, they can give a story a very precise context and, uh, flair.

On the other hand, if the reader doesn't know the culture item referred to, you as an author has either lost control of the definition to the free imagination of the reader (and you have no idea what cultural framework they have), or you'll have to describe the item referred to. In which case you didn't quite need the referrence in the first place.

I read "Their marriage was the bastard child of a Beckett play and a John Denver song" in a short story a few weeks ago. Now, I barely know who the fuck John Denver is, let alone have heard or remember any songs. So what did the metaphor mean? Damned if I know.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Topical or pop references can only limit a writer's work. Sometimes that's not a problem, and I freely admit to writing fan-fiction, which is as topical as it gets.

I stuck an Iggy Pop quote into a story, but I had one character actually not know who iggy was. the other character described an aspect of the show, and that led into further discussion... quite neatly, I thought

Liar's example is right opn the money. Not too many people would remember John Denver, or correlate him with Beckett. But it would have been clever had he lasted.

(Denver's music was sappy sunny-side-of-the-street stuff, with a side order of barefoot-in-the-blue-hills-of-Kentucky)

 

[CharleyH]

Pop culture references is a bit of a gamble. On on hand, they can give a story a very precise context and, uh, flair.

On the other hand, if the reader doesn't know the culture item referred to, you as an author has either lost control of the definition to the free imagination of the reader (and you have no idea what cultural framework they have), or you'll have to describe the item referred to. In which case you didn't quite need the referrence in the first place.

I read "Their marriage was the bastard child of a Beckett play and a John Denver song" in a short story a few weeks ago. Now, I barely know who the fuck John Denver is, let alone have heard or remember any songs. So what did the metaphor mean? Damned if I know.

Interesting. I get the Denver reference right away (LOL I AM a MILF) MY GOD! When did that happen?)!.

Bret Easton Ellis (as example) writes with a very forthright and a no excuse pop culture way ... I assume he thinks his readers are pop culture bound? (thinking out loud). You raise an interesting point, though, Liar. Is there free imagination in any story? As an authour? I should hope so and also should hope not.

 

[3113]

I read "Their marriage was the bastard child of a Beckett play and a John Denver song" in a short story a few weeks ago. Now, I barely know who the fuck John Denver is, let alone have heard or remember any songs. So what did the metaphor mean? Damned if I know.

That's a pretty obscure joke--and I know what both are!

Beckett is deeply pessimistic, compact and politically charged; John Denver, on the other hand, is overwhelmingly optimistic, almost sappy, and political only in being an enviornmentalist. His best known songs were all about the beauty of the wilderness (Colorado mountain range) and domestic bliss by way of country life and outdoor living.

Does that clarify the reference?

 

[CharleyH]

Topical or pop references can only limit a writer's work. Sometimes that's not a problem, and I freely admit to writing fan-fiction, which is as topical as it gets.

I stuck an Iggy Pop quote into a story, but I had one character actually not know who iggy was. the other character described an aspect of the show, and that led into further discussion... quite neatly, I thought

Liar's example is right opn the money. Not too many people would remember John Denver, or correlate him with Beckett. But it would have been clever had he lasted.

(Denver's music was sappy sunny-side-of-the-street stuff, with a side order of barefoot-in-the-blue-hills-of-Kentucky)

Well, I think a story is always dated - pop refs or not, so I suppose it comes down to audience. then?

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I read "Their marriage was the bastard child of a Beckett play and a John Denver song" in a short story a few weeks ago. Now, I barely know who the fuck John Denver is, let alone have heard or remember any songs. So what did the metaphor mean? Damned if I know.

And while I've had many a Rocky Mountain high, I've never seen a Becket play as far as I can remember. I agree with Liar, notwithstanding our mismatch on that one. (The reference would have worked if we read the story together.)

 

[CharleyH]

That's a pretty obscure joke--and I know what both are!

Beckett is deeply pessimistic, compact and politically charged; John Denver, on the other hand, is overwhelmingly optimistic, almost sappy, and political only in being an enviornmentalist. His best known songs were all about the beauty of the wilderness (Colorado mountain range) and domestic bliss by way of country life and outdoor living.

Does that clarify the reference?

"And the Colorado rocky mountain high
I've seen it rainin' fire in the sky
You can talk to God and listen to the casual reply
Rocky mountain high"

Not really THAT optimistic LOL

 

[3113]

Yet, as an author? When do pop culture references become too much? When are they overused, and are they even necessary?

Fine line to walk. And an excellent question.

On the one hand, pop-culture references can bring things very much home for a reader. Stephen King is a master of this--a kid doesn't just chew gum, he chews Wrigley Spearmint Gum...and that means that the reader can envision unwraping that tin foil, smelling it, feeling it fold into his mouth, taste the flavor, etc. The writer gives us all that without having to describe it, because he's tapping into something we all understand and have experienced.

It's not only useful, but often quite necessary in attaining versimiitude. If one is writing about a person living in the 1930's, you want those pop culture references to anchor the setting. You mention certain radio programs and things like ice-trucks, etc. It helps to transport the reader into that world.

But there are a few serious problems with the use of modern pop culture references:

1) They can become dated very quickly, as the Denver reference indicates. This dates the story as well and can end up confusing the reader who doesn't get the joke.

For example, if you watch the movie "Back to the Future," M.J. Fox's character goes back to 1950--he goes into a diner and asks for a "Tab." The joke was funny back in the 80's when Tab was a popular soft drink. But a 20 year old watching that movie now is not going to get the joke. Tab is long gone and the viewer is as mystified as the 1950's counter owner as to what M.J. Fox is talking about.

This particular dating problem might well be impossible to avoid, however.

2) An over abundance of pop-culture references can have the opposite effect--alienate readers rather than draw them in. This isn't to say they should be avoided, but if a writer piles too many specific cultural references into a book, it might well appeal only to a very narrow audience.

Rather like writing a book on skateboarding with a lot of unexplained references to popular skateboarders, skateboarding tricks, outfits, music, etc. Eventually, the only readers you get are those into skateboarding.

3) Some pop culture references come across as the AUTHOR rather than as part of the story. I see this a LOT in stories here with mentions to favorite Starbucks drinks. The main character will gush excessively over a White Chocolate Latte, and at that point, I suspect it's the author speaking, not the character.

In the end, I think it comes down to character and setting development. You give the character what they need to come alive, and if that includes something of popular culture, you go for it. Ditto with the setting. What you DON'T do, is give them some element of popular culture just because you think you should, or just because YOU get a kick out of it (like with the Starbuck's latte. There are other coffee places, and a character might seem MORE real if they insist on a double espresso from Pete's Coffee rather than the usual White Chocolate Grande from Starbucks).

Does that make sense?

 

[CharleyH]

Fine line to walk. And an excellent question.

On the one hand, pop-culture references can bring things very much home for a reader. Stephen King is a master of this--a kid doesn't just chew gum, he chews Wrigley Spearmint Gum...and that means that the reader can envision unwraping that tin foil, smelling it, feeling it fold into his mouth, taste the flavor, etc. The writer gives us all that without having to describe it, because he's tapping into something we all understand and have experienced.

It's not only useful, but often quite necessary in attaining versimiitude. If one is writing about a person living in the 1930's, you want those pop culture references to anchor the setting. You mention certain radio programs and things like ice-trucks, etc. It helps to transport the reader into that world.

But there are a few serious problems with the use of modern pop culture references:

1) They can become dated very quickly, as the Denver reference indicates. This dates the story as well and can end up confusing the reader who doesn't get the joke.

For example, if you watch the movie "Back to the Future," M.J. Fox's character goes back to 1950--he goes into a diner and asks for a "Tab." The joke was funny back in the 80's when Tab was a popular soft drink. But a 20 year old watching that movie now is not going to get the joke. Tab is long gone and the viewer is as mystified as the 1950's counter owner as to what M.J. Fox is talking about.

This particular dating problem might well be impossible to avoid, however.

2) An over abundance of pop-culture references can have the opposite affect--alienate readers rather than draw them in. This isn't to say they should be avoided, but if a writer piles too many specific cultural references into a book, it might well appeal only to a very narrow audience.

Rather like writing a book on skateboarding with a lot of unexplained references to popular skateboarders, skateboarding tricks, outfits, music, etc. Eventually, the only readers you get are those into skateboarding.

3) Some pop culture references come across as the AUTHOR rather than as part of the story. I see this a LOT in stories here with mentions to favorite Starbucks drinks. The main character will gush excessively over a White Chocolate Latte, and at that point, I suspect it's the author speaking, not the character.

In the end, I think it comes down to character and setting development. You give the character what they need to come alive, and if that includes something of popular culture, you go for it. Ditto with the setting. What you DON'T do, is give them some element of popular culture just because you think you should, or just because YOU get a kick out of it (like with the Starbuck's latte. There are other coffee places, and a character might seem MORE real if they insist on a double espresso from Pete's Coffee rather than the usual White Chocolate Grande from Starbucks).

Does that make sense?

You make some very good points and I can't argue - at the moment. Great post BTW

 

[rgraham666]

I'm so out of touch with pop culture that I can't really include it in a story.

Closest I've come is having Bob Marley lyrics in one of my pieces. But I'm not sure Bob can be classified as 'pop'.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, I think a story is always dated - pop refs or not, so I suppose it comes down to audience. then?

oh, always- but sometimes it's worth a try to make it exist outside the dates...

And I just came up with another one out of my own work- "Sarabande"
I've re-written references, but the story takes place in the eighties. The celebrities, the musical references are so damn dated. There are no cell phones.
And the era is't far enough back there to make it of historical interest.

but the sex scenes are still hot, at least!

(edited to say- 3113 reminded me)

 

[Oblimo]

Pop cultural reference choices are little different from choices of vocabulary. Both can enrich a story or date it, engage the audience or lose it, in mostly the same ways. The significant difference is the speed at which pop culture and vocabulary drift.

 

[CharleyH]

oh, always- but sometimes it's worth a try to make it exist outside the dates...

And I just came up with another one out of my own work- "Sarabande"
I've re-written references, but the story takes place in the eighties. The celebrities, the musical references are so damn dated. There are no cell phones.
And the era is't far enough back there to make it of historical interest.

but the sex scenes are still hot, at least!

(edited to say- 3113 reminded me)

damn you! STOP POSTIG JD PICS! I am intersted in your references? Which do you make? (cough cough, still hung on JD and distracted)

 

[Stella_Omega]

damn you! STOP POSTIG JD PICS! I am intersted in your references? Which do you make? (cough cough, still hung on JD and distracted)

LOL! That is one beautiful face, isn't it!
johnny johnny johnny
um... I referenced Prince, and The Time, a band that worked with him a lot back then. Those were the only references I haven't gotten rid of.
johnny johnny
I am proud of the young starlet I created- Krista Tesjan. You would swear you've seen her name in People magazine, wouldn't you?
johnny johnny johnny
Oh, and I reference People Magazine once, in fact...
johnny johnny johnny

...what's wrong?

 

[CharleyH]

LOL! That is one beautiful face, isn't it!
johnny johnny johnny
um... I referenced Prince, and The Time, a band that worked with him a lot back then. Those were the only references I haven't gotten rid of.
johnny johnny
I am proud of the young starlet I created- Krista Tesjan. You would swear you've seen her name in People magazine, wouldn't you?
johnny johnny johnny
Oh, and I reference People Magazine once, in fact...
johnny johnny johnny

...what's wrong?

I have been stuck on JD since his - UGG - 21 JUMP Street days. Who is this kinky starlet you speak of?

 

[JamesSD]

I'm guessing you're more likely to alienate readers with too many pop culture references.

Pop culture experience is very subjective. The same book/movie/celebrity that you love may really annoy the reader.

Of course, you can always put the clever references in your character's mouths. If the reader is annoyed with the character it's one thing, but with the author? Tough to get past that.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I have been stuck on JD since his - UGG - 21 JUMP Street days. Who is this kinky starlet you speak of?

I saw him in Cry Baby because of the music... and then i didn't notice him again untill Dead Man

Krista hasn't made an appearance yet. Tracy has an affair with her, which gets into the magazines, but in fact- she isn't kinky. This is Stella on the phone with Tracy, from Tokyo;

“Are those tits real?”
“All real. But you know what, she don’t have as much feeling in them as you’d think. I mostly go after her neck. She digs that.”
“Yeah, you aren’t much of a tit man.” Stella chuckled
“Nope. It’s the whole package, what I dig. Oh, baby, I do miss you, can you believe that?”
“You teach her to Tease you?”
“Uh-uh.” Tracy said thoughtfully. “You know, I don’t know if I would. She’s kinda into getting done. She lays back and spreads them legs, you know. I climb aboard and do the stud. Can’t diss her, she gets all hoity–toity.”
“No handcuffs, huh?” Stella sympathized.
“Nope. So I could never leave you for her, huh?”
“Don’t you ever forget it, boy”
Stella hung up, euphoric. Tracy was more hers than ever, and she wasn’t jealous. She rented Krista’s first movie. The sex scene was more to her liking. She re-played it. The male star became Tracy, and she watched it again. And again. “This is crazy,” she said aloud; “I gotta stop it.”

 

[Weird Harold]

Yet, as an author? When do pop culture references become too much? When are they overused, and are they even necessary?

Any opinion about pop culture is a great one. I am very interested in hearing your ops on this topic.

There's nothing inherently wrong with pop-culture references -- as long as the story doesn't hinge on the reader understanding the reference.

If you're writing a period piece, you have to make sure the pop-culture references aren't anachronistic.


For example, it's OK to compare a character to an actor, but its NOT OK to rely on the comparison to describe the character. If you rely on the comparison for the description, you'll lose half your readers -- a third because they don't recognise the reference and the other sixth because, like me, they think you're too lazy or inept to describe a character.

 

[amicus]

Well, I choose to lay a just a little literary snobbishness on this thread, for a very personal reason, I have lived so long that should I begin using pop references, or colloquialisms, they might accidentally refer to the 1940's and surely no one would remember Mockingbird Hill or the Pianist on the Benny Goodman trio/quartet/quintet, or the first time Bill Haley and the Comets sang what the hell ever they sang...was it Rock around the Clock?

As some have said, we date ourselves by using such devices and also expose our level of sophistication or the lack of it. And others said also, that even with well known pop icons, not all segments of society are familiar and certainly fewer international audiences.

But then, it really depends on the audience you are writing for. Fan Fiction, like comic books, come and go, penny thrillers and dime novels, also surely have their place as do wank stories on Literotica.

But if you have serious writing in mind, something that can be read and understood a hundred years into the future, then one should perhaps deal only with universal subjects that all humans can understand at all times without reference to current events, large or small.

And yes, that is a little snobbish and not absolute, for how could one write a 'war story' about world war two for example, without using cultural references?

Just some thoughts and not very well expressed ones either, interesting thread...good job...


amicus...

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Bret Easton Ellis (as example) writes with a very forthright and a no excuse pop culture way ... I assume he thinks his readers are pop culture bound? (thinking out loud). You raise an interesting point, though, Liar. Is there free imagination in any story? As an authour? I should hope so and also should hope not.

The thing with Ellis, though, is that he doesn't merely references pop culture to make a witty metaphor or a cute joke. He has characters that live pop culture, that are defined by pop culture, and so, instead of making isolated pop culture references that any one reader may or may not "get", he virtually drowns you in pop culture references, so many of them that a) you'd have to have been living in a cave in Mars not to get most of them; and b) you don't have to get them individually anyway. Together, they serve to paint the world where his characters live, (as in U2's quote: "We slide down the surface of things"). The references themselves could be entirely made-up and the message would still get through.

 

[Liar]

The thing with Ellis, though, is that he doesn't merely references pop culture to make a witty metaphor or a cute joke. He has characters that live pop culture, that are defined by pop culture, and so, instead of making isolated pop culture references that any one reader may or may not "get", he virtually drowns you in pop culture references, so many of them that a) you'd have to have been living in a cave in Mars not to get most of them; and b) you don't have to get them individually anyway. Together, they serve to paint the world where his characters live, (as in U2's quote: "We slide down the surface of things"). The references themselves could be entirely made-up and the message would still get through.

Ah, yep. Isn't Ellis more incorporating pop culture as a phenomena than alludes to single pop culture artefects? I'm not saying that it's universal and will have the same appeal three centuries from now. But the way pop culture is viewed and the attitude towards it from different people is the same mow as it was 50 years ago, even if the hot topic items have changed.

A little bit like what Kevin Smith does in his slightly different genre. It's not important what pop culture his characters bitch about. It's the fact that they habitually banter pop culture that defines them as characters.