Would you lend a priceless Greek Statue to Russia?

[oggbashan]

The British Museum has lent to Russia an important part of the Elgin Marbles that are the subject of a long running dispute with Greece.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ims-Greece-never-formally-asked-returned.html

The headless statue of the River God Ilissos was a major feature on the Parthenon in Athens.

The loan is partly to help celebrate the 250th anniversary of the founding of the Hermitage Museum in St Petersburg.

Political relations between Russia and the UK are at a low ebb, but cultural exchanges have continued in the past despite the respective governments abusing each other in public.

But would you trust President Putin's Russia with such a priceless and controversial item?

Will the British Museum get it back?

 

[Queersetti]

Haven't they been telling the Greeks for decades that they can't give the Marbles back because they are too delicate to move?

 

[The Greek]

Yeah...they will get it back right after Robert Kraft get's back his Superbowl Ring

 

[oggbashan]

Haven't they been telling the Greeks for decades that they can't give the Marbles back because they are too delicate to move?

The Greeks haven't formally asked for them back.

They have made political statements about the Elgin Marbles and persuaded celebrities to back their campaign, but there has not been a formal request from the Greek Government to the UK Government. If there had been, that would have opened a whole can of worms.

Countries all over the world have Ancient Greek artefacts, many of them with far less justification than Lord Elgin who bought them from the then ruling power - the Ottoman Empire.

If the Greeks are justified in seeking the return of the Elgin Marbles, then Museums all over the USA, AND The Hermitage in St Petersburg, would face losing their most precious exhibits. Those would not just be Greek, but items that were Roman, Indian, Chinese and from many other sources. It would cause cultural chaos.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I'm certainly not going to loan it to Greece.



All you're gonna get back is a used Chia pet...

 

[Sean]

The Hermitage isn't Russia.

 

[Equinoxe]

I don't know that loaning a portion of the Elgin Marbles to Russia will be an issue, besides antagonising Greece (which I'm not sure is really much an issue, either, to be honest). The Hermitage is a major prestigious international museum, so the likelihood of something so obviously underhanded as what would amount to stealing the statue seems virtually nonexistent to me. True, some of the artefacts taken by the Soviet Union from German museums after World War II still haven't been returned (perhaps most famously the Pushkin Museum has much from Schliemann's excavations of Troy), but there are unique circumstances surrounding that.

And even if the Hermitage did keep it, at least the risk still would not be anything like, for example, if the Pergamon Museum in Berlin decided to repatriate the Ishtar Gate to Iraq, which could very realistically result in its permanent loss.

Now, where the Elgin Marbles belong in the first place is a very much more complicated issue. Lord Elgin's securing of them was not half as questionable as a great deal of archaeological work in the 19th century, even into the 20th century, but it was not exactly to modern standards. Repatriation of priceless artefacts is hardly unheard of, either—take the restoration of Tutankhamun's mummy to Egypt. And the disputes over the Elgin Marbles are far from unique. One can look at Peru's dealings with Yale for the return of artefacts excavated by Hiram Bingham at Machu Picchu (which ultimately ended in Peru's favour).

On the other hand, museums throughout the US and Europe have a variety of artworks and artefacts from all over the world which could be subject to extensive disputes, even legal disputes, over their ultimate home. If it became the absolute standard that artworks and artefacts must be returned to the country of their origin, whole museums (such as the aforementioned Pergamon Museum) could be in jeopardy. There's a whole realm of attached politics that I don't really want to get into here.

The Elgin Marbles are somewhat distinct, and perhaps have a better claim to repatriation than many others, though, because they are not isolated standalone artworks but have a specific and known place in a building which still very much exists. Although I am not sure that, if repatriated to Greece, they would be restored in situ—I suspect they wouldn't be (although Tutankhamun's mummy was returned to his original tomb in Egypt, albeit in a climate controlled glass case).

Of course, then there's a whole debate over whether ancient artworks and artefacts are meaningfully part of the unique heritage of any modern nation, especially with a meta-historically significant culture like Ancient Greece (and so, in this particular instance, whether modern Greece is anything more than trivially a greater inheritor of Ancient Greece than other European nations—which, for the record, I'm of the opinion that it isn't). In that vein, it's a more difficult issue; the significance of Ancient Greek culture to Western civilisation as a whole arguably renders Ancient Greek artefacts as much a part of the world's heritage as any one country's [incidentally, and tangentially, I'm also of the opinion that neither Ancient Greece nor Ancient Rome were part of Western civilisation, but rather the most significant influences thereupon—Western civilisation begins in 476 (date traditional and semi-arbitrary)].

All in all, I am mildly in favour of restoring them to Greece (but not bothered by their not being there).

Okay, I digress.

So, ultimately, other than offending Greece, I'm not sure that there's really much of a risk involved.

 

[oggbashan]

About one third of the remaining Parthenon marbles are in Greece, housed in a special building nearby.

About one third are the Elgin Marbles in the British Museum, with one currently loaned to the Hermitage in St Petersburg.

The rest are scattered around many museums.

The Greek Government has made it very clear on several occasions that IF the Elgin Marbles were loaned to Greece, they would NOT give them back.

Greece (and Italy) have real problems looking after their historic sites and artefacts. They have so many, and not enough money to conserve them properly. For example Pompeii is at risk with some parts of it crumbling away.

They aren't alone. The UK has a longer list of historic buildings at risk in 2014 than in 2013, and than in 2012, 2011... Part of that is because more historic buildings are identified; part is because government funds for repairs/maintenance have been cut; and part because the standard of repair work expected by English Heritage is very expensive.

 

[tributemisty]

Yes

Yes I would. I think it was a nice thing to do to lend the sculpture to Russia.

What a lot of fuss over some dusty old boring sculpture. If they get broken they can just make a copy anyway so that's OK

 

[Queersetti]

I don't know that loaning a portion of the Elgin Marbles to Russia will be an issue, besides antagonising Greece (which I'm not sure is really much an issue, either, to be honest). The Hermitage is a major prestigious international museum, so the likelihood of something so obviously underhanded as what would amount to stealing the statue seems virtually nonexistent to me. True, some of the artefacts taken by the Soviet Union from German museums after World War II still haven't been returned (perhaps most famously the Pushkin Museum has much from Schliemann's excavations of Troy), but there are unique circumstances surrounding that.

And even if the Hermitage did keep it, at least the risk still would not be anything like, for example, if the Pergamon Museum in Berlin decided to repatriate the Ishtar Gate to Iraq, which could very realistically result in its permanent loss.

Now, where the Elgin Marbles belong in the first place is a very much more complicated issue. Lord Elgin's securing of them was not half as questionable as a great deal of archaeological work in the 19th century, even into the 20th century, but it was not exactly to modern standards. Repatriation of priceless artefacts is hardly unheard of, either—take the restoration of Tutankhamun's mummy to Egypt. And the disputes over the Elgin Marbles are far from unique. One can look at Peru's dealings with Yale for the return of artefacts excavated by Hiram Bingham at Machu Picchu (which ultimately ended in Peru's favour).

On the other hand, museums throughout the US and Europe have a variety of artworks and artefacts from all over the world which could be subject to extensive disputes, even legal disputes, over their ultimate home. If it became the absolute standard that artworks and artefacts must be returned to the country of their origin, whole museums (such as the aforementioned Pergamon Museum) could be in jeopardy. There's a whole realm of attached politics that I don't really want to get into here.

The Elgin Marbles are somewhat distinct, and perhaps have a better claim to repatriation than many others, though, because they are not isolated standalone artworks but have a specific and known place in a building which still very much exists. Although I am not sure that, if repatriated to Greece, they would be restored in situ—I suspect they wouldn't be (although Tutankhamun's mummy was returned to his original tomb in Egypt, albeit in a climate controlled glass case).

Of course, then there's a whole debate over whether ancient artworks and artefacts are meaningfully part of the unique heritage of any modern nation, especially with a meta-historically significant culture like Ancient Greece (and so, in this particular instance, whether modern Greece is anything more than trivially a greater inheritor of Ancient Greece than other European nations—which, for the record, I'm of the opinion that it isn't). In that vein, it's a more difficult issue; the significance of Ancient Greek culture to Western civilisation as a whole arguably renders Ancient Greek artefacts as much a part of the world's heritage as any one country's [incidentally, and tangentially, I'm also of the opinion that neither Ancient Greece nor Ancient Rome were part of Western civilisation, but rather the most significant influences thereupon—Western civilisation begins in 476 (date traditional and semi-arbitrary)].

All in all, I am mildly in favour of restoring them to Greece (but not bothered by their not being there).

Okay, I digress.

So, ultimately, other than offending Greece, I'm not sure that there's really much of a risk involved.

I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of the Greek heritage belonging to all of the West. You've made some very interesting points.

 

[Queersetti]

About one third of the remaining Parthenon marbles are in Greece, housed in a special building nearby.

About one third are the Elgin Marbles in the British Museum, with one currently loaned to the Hermitage in St Petersburg.

The rest are scattered around many museums.

The Greek Government has made it very clear on several occasions that IF the Elgin Marbles were loaned to Greece, they would NOT give them back.

Greece (and Italy) have real problems looking after their historic sites and artefacts. They have so many, and not enough money to conserve them properly. For example Pompeii is at risk with some parts of it crumbling away.

They aren't alone. The UK has a longer list of historic buildings at risk in 2014 than in 2013, and than in 2012, 2011... Part of that is because more historic buildings are identified; part is because government funds for repairs/maintenance have been cut; and part because the standard of repair work expected by English Heritage is very expensive.

The Italians are terrible preservationists, but I'll make a few points in their defense.

First of all, most historically significant buildings in Italy are in daily use. People live, work and do business in them. So the wear and tear continues on a regular basis. In addition, restoration would necessitate removing people from their homes and closing down businesses while the work is done. Obviously, no local politician wants to step into that issue.

Those buildings that aren't still in everyday use are nearly all important tourist attractions. It's a huge battle to get them restored, because no one wants to cut off that tourist money. They have finally started much needed work on the Colosseum, but it took years of fighting to get it approved.

Oh, and one other thing. Earthquakes. They don't help.

 

[JohnnySavage]

About one third of the remaining Parthenon marbles are in Greece, housed in a special building nearby.

About one third are the Elgin Marbles in the British Museum, with one currently loaned to the Hermitage in St Petersburg.

The rest are scattered around many museums.

The Greek Government has made it very clear on several occasions that IF the Elgin Marbles were loaned to Greece, they would NOT give them back.

Greece (and Italy) have real problems looking after their historic sites and artefacts. They have so many, and not enough money to conserve them properly. For example Pompeii is at risk with some parts of it crumbling away.

They aren't alone. The UK has a longer list of historic buildings at risk in 2014 than in 2013, and than in 2012, 2011... Part of that is because more historic buildings are identified; part is because government funds for repairs/maintenance have been cut; and part because the standard of repair work expected by English Heritage is very expensive.

So is Naples, so at least there is some consistency.

 

[Equinoxe]

About one third of the remaining Parthenon marbles are in Greece, housed in a special building nearby.

About one third are the Elgin Marbles in the British Museum, with one currently loaned to the Hermitage in St Petersburg.

The rest are scattered around many museums.

Oh yes, I had forgotten that there were some in Greece, but that is what I figured. Things are rarely left in place.

The Greek Government has made it very clear on several occasions that IF the Elgin Marbles were loaned to Greece, they would NOT give them back.

Greece (and Italy) have real problems looking after their historic sites and artefacts. They have so many, and not enough money to conserve them properly. For example Pompeii is at risk with some parts of it crumbling away.

They aren't alone. The UK has a longer list of historic buildings at risk in 2014 than in 2013, and than in 2012, 2011... Part of that is because more historic buildings are identified; part is because government funds for repairs/maintenance have been cut; and part because the standard of repair work expected by English Heritage is very expensive.

Especially given the recent Greek economic troubles, it's anything but surprising that the country is having trouble funding conservation of historic sites.

But, no, you're right; Greece is hardly alone in that. Sites all over the world are threatened due to cost issues and sometimes, far worse, outright neglect (not to mention looting and modern development, though those are less commonly issues in Europe and the US). The perceived inability to maintain artefacts is a commonly cited reason against repatriation—it was, for instance, a major argument made by Yale against restoring artefacts from Machu Picchu to Peru.

Occasionally, at least, there's a degree of foresight about preservation—China, for example, won't excavate the tomb of Qin Shi Huang until there's certainty everything can be preserved. Other times, perhaps even most times, not so much—China, again, when it does attempt to preserve existing sites often just replaces them with modern material replicas that look like the original (Japan has a history of this, too—most "surviving" Japanese castles are concrete replicas).

I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of the Greek heritage belonging to all of the West. You've made some very interesting points.

Oh, thank you. I'm glad to have given you something to think about.

I think, in that respect, Ancient Greek heritage and disputes over Greek artefacts are perhaps somewhat different from many other such disputes. For example, the dispute between Mexico and Austria over the feathered headdress of Moctezuma—Austria acquired it legally, but regardless of that, Aztec artefacts are arguably an absolutely fundamental part of Mexico's heritage and inarguably absolutely not at all a part of Austria's.

Now, how important that factor is, or whether that's a reason to keep things where they are, I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Mr Noone]

The Hermitage isn't Russia.

Or even Nashville.

 

[Noor]

The Hermitage isn't Russia.

St. Petersburg had succeeded from Russia?

 

[Libsam]

a nice consolation prize for russia considering what happened in cyprus.

 

[phrodeau]

As long as the US doesn't decide to bomb St. Petersburg, it should be fine.

 

[PayDay]

Considering this part:
"that are the subject of a long running dispute with Greece."

No.