Working Women

[littlegirlslut]

So I just read an article in Forbes that truly pissed me off. I'm offended as a female, feminist, slave, submissive, daughter, friend... I guess I'm not marriable because I have a successful carrier.

Thoughts?

PYLs do you want your pyls to work?


I would love to see this discussed.

http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/21/ca...cx_mn_0821women.html?partner=daily_newsletter

 

[L_homme]

It looks like a contentious issue.

 

[littlegirlslut]

It looks like a contentious issue.

To each their own - but this article just annoyed me. My Master knows i work and want to continue to work and that my career is important so that's what matters to me and Him.

Maybe the article is right - i don't know.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

I think that makes perfect sense. The more money a woman makes, the less likely she'll be dependant on a man to help her financially, the less likely she'll stay married if things go bad?

 

[L_homme]

I really haven't had the time to read it. I just glanced at the main points. I'm saying that it's a contentious issue because it's not 50s america where the woman was often seen in a more ''traditional'' role. women have had careers for a long time now and i'm not sure why you think that having a career ruins a woman's chances of being successfully married.

 

[soakersue]

brings up alot of issues

yes well, this brings up several things. Because the women are the ones to do most of the adjusting in any moves, we many times put our careers on hold. Or make decisions that are not the best for us. I used to be married to someone in the Navy, and have now been on my own for 11 years. If I had made different choices I would be in a completely different economic situation.
Marriageable, in that if we have our own goals and careers. Then who is the home support? Also If a young woman is on a career path, she may not be looking at marriage possibilities, so when you do not look or pursue, that can make a difference as to if marriage will even come up.
Example, you date different, you look at relationships different.
I have read in other threads, and come to realize myself. I have the relationships I set myself up for. Very eye opening.

 

[littlegirlslut]

I think that makes perfect sense. The more money a woman makes, the less likely she'll be dependant on a man to help her financially, the less likely she'll stay married if things go bad?

So the only reason a woman should stay is because she financially dependent - forget happiness. Just stay because you have no other choice.

Doesn't this mean though - that when the man makes the decision to leave - it leaves the woman with nothing?

Was this post sarcasm?

 

[littlegirlslut]

yes well, this brings up several things. Because the women are the ones to do most of the adjusting in any moves, we many times put our careers on hold. Or make decisions that are not the best for us. I used to be married to someone in the Navy, and have now been on my own for 11 years. If I had made different choices I would be in a completely different economic situation.
Marriageable, in that if we have our own goals and careers. Then who is the home support? Also If a young woman is on a career path, she may not be looking at marriage possibilities, so when you do not look or pursue, that can make a difference as to if marriage will even come up.
Example, you date different, you look at relationships different.
I have read in other threads, and come to realize myself. I have the relationships I set myself up for. Very eye opening.

Good points thank you for commenting.

 

[shy slave]

Well I didn't enjoy reading that but in my experience there may be some truth in it. The reasons behind why are what really interest me.

If you take the concept that men want to have small images of themselves running the world, then it is possible to see this article as having merit. After all, if you want children a career focused woman may not have them until later in life.

That said, it could also be a cultural thing. Some countries have the concept that women work regardless of the the child responsibilities and child care provision or family help are the norm to allow for this.
Other cultures mothers stay home for X amount of years.

Another reason why this article makes some sense, is that men I have known say they are NOT threatened by a woman who earns more, and joke about it.
But in reality it can be an issue. I am not sure whether they feel it undermines them in some way, or if it is a status thing or a lacking of a role within the relationship. I am not a man, how could I know?

Like all articles it depends on who funded the research, what the aim was, what country it is aimed at, and (being a cynic) what subliminal message they are hoping to get acroos.

Remember Bush said he wanted American families to be more like the Waltons and less like the Simpsons.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

So the only reason a woman should stay is because she financially dependent - forget happiness. Just stay because you have no other choice.
Doesn't this mean though - that when the man makes the decision to leave - it leaves the woman with nothing?
Was this post sarcasm?

Not at all. I think many women (with or without careers) stay in marriages for the financial aspects. If career women are not consider a 'safe bet' for marriage as the article indicates, one of the reasons would have to be - they don't NEED to stay. They have the financial means to leave.

 

[littlegirlslut]

Not at all. I think many women (with or without careers) stay in marriages for the financial aspects. If career women are not consider a 'safe bet' for marriage as the article indicates, one of the reasons would have to be - they don't NEED to stay. They have the financial means to leave.

Ok now I understand what you were saying. Thank you.

 

[blue kat]

PYLs do you want your pyls to work?


I would love to see this discussed.

Oh hell yes. Amber loves her job; she'd be miserable if I made her quit. Career women tend to be more self confident and happy with themselves, and that is sexy. I'm not sadistic enough to tell her that she'd have to quit for me, even though I can probably support us both at this time. If her job were making her unhappy, then I would encourage her to find something she likes. I wouldn't enjoy an unhappy pyl.

 

[chris9]

My thoughts, might be quite populistic

professional women are more likely to get divorced, more likely to cheat, less likely to have children, and, if they do have kids, they are more likely to be unhappy about it

Here I had the same thought as crazybbwgirl had. Especially this first part "more likely to get divorced" had me thinking that of course they are, as they are financially independent. Littlegirlslut, in a way I believe you are correct. In traditional marriage, if the man leaves, it indeed leaves the woman with nothing. Maybe a sort of proof can be seen in this:

A few other studies, which have focused on employment (as opposed to working hours) have concluded that working outside the home actually increases marital stability, at least when the marriage is a happy one. But even in these studies, wives' employment does correlate positively to divorce rates, when the marriage is of "low marital quality."

All of the work must get done by somebody, and this pairing, regardless of who is in the home and who is outside the home, accomplishes that goal. Nobel laureate Gary S. Becker argued that when the labor specialization in a marriage decreases--if, for example, both spouses have careers--the overall value of the marriage is lower for both partners because less of the total needed work is getting done, making life harder for both partners and divorce more likely.

It seems that the problem is that while women started doing less housework and more paid out of the home work, men did not start doing more housework. Because by the calculation of this snip of the article, it should be possible to have both doing half the inside home work and half the outside home work. If men don't do their share of this work, there will be frustration.
That's where for me the children come in. If I have a carreer (which I'm almost sure I will have) and first have to sacrifice getting higher because of having kids, or making less money (statistically shown that's what happens to mothers), and then second have to do most of the housework/children raising, I can see me not being happy with my situation.

Now some random thoughts related to the article, but not really to any single statements:
- If educated men want educated women for their spouse (which makes sense, because that way I suppose discussion/conversation/interests are more likely to match), and educated women don't make good wives (either they are unhappy because they gave up their carreer, or divorce is more likely because of that career), I'm sorry to say, but maybe these men are cursed and cannot marry at all.
- I don't think that many people can be completely 'employed', contended with working 'only' at home. I know that for my grandmothers it was necessary that one stayed at home, because all the cooking, cleaning, washing, preserving food in summer for winter, growing own veggies/fruit etc. was a full time job, often more than employed work. But today we don't need to do all this. It's different when there are small kids, I believe they are still so much work to keep one occupied the whole time. But I know too many stay-at-home moms who become really annoying persons once their children are grown up. They tend to be VERY stressed, not having time for anything. I believe that's their way to show they have a right to exist.
- For many couples developing in very different ways (one working outside all the time, one staying at home) can be disastrous.
- I don't believe it would be possible to live life with the advantages and luxuries I'd rather not do without with a single income. I know we will have to pay tons of money for the retirement of our parents' generation (many parents, few children paying for them) and at the same time save lots of money for our own retirement, because we will get little to none. I want to raise my children in a healthy and good environment, thus I need more money. I'd like to eat good food, travel, live in a nice house. All this cannot be done with only one person making money.

Littlegirlslut, I do understand your being upset. I am, too. This article seems so stupid, so full of prejudice, yet giving it as the ultimate statistically proven truth.
Two points that in my eyes show the faulty logic especially: One, it's stated that working people are more likely to cheat and to leave their marriage for a new partner. If both are working, of course the chances increase for that reason of divorce. But if there's only one working, that person will cheat/leave with the same probability as the second.
Two, in the end it says that

As with any social scientific study, it's important not to confuse correlation with causation.

In the article this only references to the 'marriage=better health' statement. It can be applied to the whole theme of the article.

 

[graceanne]

I haven't read the article, just read comments. That said, K would be thrilled if i started making more money than him. He'd stop working, and go to college.

 

[littlegirlslut]

chris9 thanks for so much insight. you made a lot of good points.

 

[littlegirlslut]

So this leads me to another question:

I've always felt a little guilty that I don't want to be a stay at home mom. I think it's such a great role for some women to play. I was in day care at a very young age and I think I've turned out ok. But a friend of mine and I were talking about when we have kids and I thought she was going to turn me in to the "bad moms to be" because I didn't want to stay at home. This is not saying I want to work 75 hours per week.

My mom had a flexible schedule - went to work after I left for school and both parents always made it to every school event I ever had (and there were tons).

I know both sides "stay at home moms" and "career moms" get crap for their choices but why? Ideally I would like to find a stay at home mom to watch my child(ren) while I work, but who knows what hte future holds.

 

[graceanne]

So this leads me to another question:

I've always felt a little guilty that I don't want to be a stay at home mom. I think it's such a great role for some women to play. I was in day care at a very young age and I think I've turned out ok. But a friend of mine and I were talking about when we have kids and I thought she was going to turn me in to the "bad moms to be" because I didn't want to stay at home. This is not saying I want to work 75 hours per week.

My mom had a flexible schedule - went to work after I left for school and both parents always made it to every school event I ever had (and there were tons).

I know both sides "stay at home moms" and "career moms" get crap for their choices but why? Ideally I would like to find a stay at home mom to watch my child(ren) while I work, but who knows what hte future holds.

Because no matter what you do you'll find someone who says you shouldn't. Period. She doesn't sound like much of a friend to me, if she's going to act like that. Just tell her that the world is not black and white, and neither are choices about staying home. Beyond that if you were miserable at home, you'd be a lousy mother. Children are abused as much by stay at home mothers as they are by working mothers.

 

[littlegirlslut]

Thanks Grace!!

 

[graceanne]

Thanks Grace!!

You're welcome. *hugs* And sorry if I ranted, people like her seriously tick me off. It's like the people who gave me crap for bottle feeding, cause I wasn't healthy enough to breast feed. Evidently a sick, breastfeeding mother is better than a healthy, bottle feeding mom.

 

[chris9]

So this leads me to another question:

I've always felt a little guilty that I don't want to be a stay at home mom. I think it's such a great role for some women to play. I was in day care at a very young age and I think I've turned out ok. But a friend of mine and I were talking about when we have kids and I thought she was going to turn me in to the "bad moms to be" because I didn't want to stay at home. This is not saying I want to work 75 hours per week.

My mom had a flexible schedule - went to work after I left for school and both parents always made it to every school event I ever had (and there were tons).

I know both sides "stay at home moms" and "career moms" get crap for their choices but why? Ideally I would like to find a stay at home mom to watch my child(ren) while I work, but who knows what hte future holds.

I grew up in an arrangement of that sort, after school I stayed at a friend's place, where her mother gave me lunch and took care of me until my mom was done working. Before school my dad was responsible for us, giving us breakfast, making sure we had everything we would need and left on time, that sort of thing. I actually was at home alone from quite early (10 yo) for two hours every afternoon after school until my mom got home. It didn't hurt me at all.
I don't feel guilty because I want to work when I have children. In a way I feel I own it to my countrey. I go to university, paid by the state. It seems right to pay it back by working in the field I am taught to work in.
I do feel worried about not finding a good place for my children to stay. A stay at home mom watching them would be perfect, but there are not as many of those around anymore than when I was small, and I would want a 'high quality' care-taking mom. I really hope that stupid German politicians will very soon figure out that allday school would be WAY better than the pretension of doing only morning school that's in existence now. Children in grade school are often back home by noon. Having someone take care of them for the endless hours until I can hope to get home doesn't feel right.
Mostly when I get worries like that, I tell myself that I still have some time and that I and my partner will figure it out then. Sometimes I'm not sure it will work at all. It's depressing.


edited: From my experience, and the experience of friends with either working or stay at home moms, I believe that the important bit is to have time for your children. It doesn't really matter if you work or stay at home. In both varieties parents either care, or don't care, take the time to talk/play/read/cuddle/sing/teach/whatever or not do this. And staying at home is no guarantee that you'll take better care of them.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Quote: Chris9

"It seems that the problem is that while women started doing less housework and more paid out of the home work, men did not start doing more housework. Because by the calculation of this snip of the article, it should be possible to have both doing half the inside home work and half the outside home work. If men don't do their share of this work, there will be frustration."


BINGO. This to me sounds more like the REAL reason women with careers don't stay married as long. The point is - if you're making enough money AND doing all the housework as well - who needs all that extra crap? Why put up with a marriage - just find yourself a nice little boy toy who goes home at nite and doesn't leave dirty clothes, dishes, garbage around?

 

[Hester]

wow. i won't get into how the presentation of those studies is a bit skewed (i'll leave that to the letter-to-the-editor writing types), but i will say no man in his right mind would marry me while i was working. i've made no secret that marriage isn't a priority of mine, but in the odd event i found a man i wanted to marry i'd give up my career and stay home and tend the home and my investments. *maybe* i'd take on some part-time consulting.

i fit into the "ultra-achieving" category and my career is where it is because i'm so focused and driven and insane about it. i can understand how this would totally fuck up a marriage, which is why i'd leave my career if i ever decided to get married---if i commit to something i need to make it my priority and i know this about myself. marriage would definitely fit into that category and there's no way i could honestly give both my career and my marriage the attention they deserve at the same time. i'm not wired that way. i am also lucky enough to be in a position where this is a choice for me.

that said, i've yet to encounter a man who would make me seriously consider a move like that and don't know if such a beast exists.

 

[Hester]

Quote: Chris9

"It seems that the problem is that while women started doing less housework and more paid out of the home work, men did not start doing more housework. Because by the calculation of this snip of the article, it should be possible to have both doing half the inside home work and half the outside home work. If men don't do their share of this work, there will be frustration."


BINGO. This to me sounds more like the REAL reason women with careers don't stay married as long. The point is - if you're making enough money AND doing all the housework as well - who needs all that extra crap? Why put up with a marriage - just find yourself a nice little boy toy who goes home at nite and doesn't leave dirty clothes, dishes, garbage around?

i think it's a bit more complex than the housework issue, although i do believe that plays a part. educated, financially able women know their power more, know they have more options, travel more, have more temptations and have the confidence that if caught they can survive on their own. less educated, more financially dependent women might be less likely to cheat or complain in a marriage because of concerns about their futures.

this all is not to say that there aren't women who can have their cake and eat it, too. apparently, though, statistically it's less likely than previously thought.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

...snip... this all is not to say that there aren't women who can have their cake and eat it, too. apparently, though, statistically it's less likely than previously thought.

Maybe NOT being married IS having your cake and eating it too?

 

[graceanne]

I got an email recently it said:

We've all heard 'why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free', right? Well many women are beginning to wonder 'why buy the pig, just to get a little pork?'