Working on a Sci-Fi story (non-erotic)

[daevil1]

Working on a Sci-Fi/Fantasy story (non-erotic)

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[3113]

Hey, I've been having this sci fi story in my mind for a few weeks now, and been writing a bit sporadic on hoiw I imagine it's written. I'm pretty much stalled in the process now, so I thought I'd ask what you guys think about it. I want to make this into something big, you know like a book or ten. Here's pretty much my thoughts about it. It's quite messy, but I think you'll understand what it's about.

This is way too long to wade through. Could you give us a shorter--MUCH shorter version?

But I'll tell you right off..."dark forces" and "nothing but joy and happiness" reads like a FANTASY, not sci-fi. And the old man with the staff....*SIGH* Frankly, if I read that in a book, I'd burn it. Right into the fire. I'm so fucking SICK of old men training the young with staffs and shit. I'm so FUCKING SICK of Kung-fu masters no matter what costume they wear.

If you're in love with it, fine, but you are really, really wading into cliche fantasy story at this point. No sci-fi involved.

Science fiction has to have some element of science, technology or probability. Such things rarely involve such keywords as "dark forces" and old masters with white beards and glowing, indestructable, one-of-a-kind-Harry-Potter-"This was your father's light sabre" staffs (am I getting through to you here?)--and if you're thinking Star Wars, well, that's really fantasy, not Sci-fi.

Oh, and you OTHER guy is the main character. Your hero is his side kick.

To get more characters, you'd better figure out how big this empire is, how many planets (or whatever), what kind of creatures live on these planets and what the political situation is that allows them to be rules.

I recommend you read Frank Herbert's "Dune" to help you out and inspire you, especially given that it appeared some 10 years prior to Star Wars and had all the shit in it that Star Wars stole--including the "one special" young man, the training masters, special ways of fighting, etc.

 

[daevil1]

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[3113]

Well, I don't really care how you categorize it. I haven't completely decided on who the story will revolve around (although quite a bit will obviously revolve around our hero), so how you got "the other guy" as a main character out of that, beats me.

Easy. Look at your quickie descriptions of their personalities (which matter far more than their histories):

Our Hero:

he is very constant in his mood, he never gives away his true feelings for some reason. He is also easy going with most people (except people he feel uncertain about or don't like), but he rarely trusts his friends with his own secrets or real opinions. He talks when he feels there is a need for him to talk, otherwise he usually never speaks.

The other guy:

Is a clever guy who is well acquinted with his words and win our her over on his side with his way of words. But as time passes he reveals more and more of himself like when he is put under pressure, he snaps and blames everyone when he himself has the blame. Deep in he is a good guy, but he is a bit blind like he can't see the forest for all the trees (when he invites all the outlaws to the new planet for example). And as time goes by he more and more loses his roots with a willing to make something new and divine for everyone, and it is replaced with a hunger for power that just grows and grows.

You spend TWICE as long on the "other guy" than you do the hero. That means you KNOW him better. As a person. The hero's background is generic and could fit anyone. But the personality, what they are like and what they will do in a situation...that's what matters. And from these two paragraphs, you let me know which one you KNOW and which one you don't. Which one you REALLY like and can write.

Your *other* guy, as well, has inner conflict (good), talks (good in book where dialogue is useful--unless you'd rather write this a as a comic/move? They work better for silent characters), has faults and problems. What's more, he has a weakness inside him that he'll need to overcome.

We call that a "character arc."

Your "hero" has none of that. He's just "secretive."

Trust me on this. If you were to write a few chapters with this hero, you'd find yourself stopping dead and you would no know why the story wasn't working. You don't love your hero. You love his ubercool staff. And that's just not enough.

I basically just wrote an opening, and described an outline of some of the story, and described the characters a bit. Plus my Übercool STAFF!

You need to give us some idea of what the plot is--the general plot, not the large complex plot. This thing about old emperors and new and secret elders....that isn't a plot. A plot is: "Man falsely accused of murder must prove his innocence before he's caught and executed." Or "Young man must get the secret plans for a planet destroying weapon to the rebels before it's too late."

What is the one thing that has gone terribly wrong that the hero must fix? What magic ring must be destroyed, or planet taken control of, or true prince put on the throne, or princess rescued, or monster killed?

Do you have any idea what your central plot is?

 

[daevil1]

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[Harry Leg]

3113 is right about the staff.

I don't see anything here that sticks out at all. I'm not trying to be overly critical but the whole thing seems rather naive at this point. There is no direction that guides the story that I can see. But then again it was difficult to get much out of your incredibly long and convoluted synopsis.

Your main character (at least I think it is) seems pretty bland. Character flaws make people interesting and he comes across as a kind of boring.

There is so much work that needs to be done here that its hard to give any advice. But if you want to write some science fiction, you need some science. You need something that makes your world (or worlds) distinct and different from other works of sci-fi, not just a star wars rip off. And most importantly, you need some science. There is so much you need to fill in. How do these people travel? How do they terraform planets in 888 days? There are so many gaps its hard to see what the point of it all is.

You really need some plot.

Just my 2 cents for whatever its worth.
Good luck.

 

[Harry Leg]

Well, our hero is an image of myself how I see myself ( a bit glorified perhaps, but still), so I doubt I'll run out of how to write things about him. And I love myself quite much. To put it this way, what happened with the hero is basically "what happened to me", although a bit bombastified and fantasy'ish etc.

Well the central plot in this story though is:

Things seems to be well on the main planet. They aren't, and the Sojols seems to make life miserable for everyone. Our hero find a guy who seems to want to do something about it. They move to another planet, things looks good on the new planet, things start to turn wrong, our hero gets more and more doubts about "the other guy". And from there I'm pretty much stuck although I think he'll turn evil, and our hero needs to get the hell away from there.

Anyway, about the characterisations, they were made at a very early point in my thought process, and haven't been modified after (if you read below you'll notice quite a few things happning that dosen't match up with the characters), and if you read more on it, you'll see how I try to define our hero through things happening with him and around him etc, rather than what's going on in his mind and how he behaves etc (wether or not it's successfull, you'll have to tell me).

btw keep all the critisism coming, I am already noticing your replies clearing up the mess of a story that's in my brain atm

Thats still not really a plot. Thats just a background for one.

I could be wrong, but I don't think 3113 was saying you should rip off Dune, I think she was suggesting that you should read something that is different from star wars. There's more (and better) sci-fi out there that might give you some idea of how to approach things differently.

 

[3113]

Thanks Harry!

Thats still not really a plot. Thats just a background for one.

I could be wrong, but I don't think 3113 was saying you should rip off Dune, I think she was suggesting that you should read something that is different from star wars. There's more (and better) sci-fi out there that might give you some idea of how to approach things differently.

Thanks, Harry. That's exactly what I was saying.

 

[3113]

Well, our hero is an image of myself how I see myself ( a bit glorified perhaps, but still), so I doubt I'll run out of how to write things about him. And I love myself quite much. To put it this way, what happened with the hero is basically "what happened to me", although a bit bombastified and fantasy'ish etc.

You were trained to use a staff by a wise old man who was part of a secret society, and an aristocracy was worried about you and you saved a planet

As for the hero being you and you loving to write about yourself...if you want to do that, have fun. Writers have a name for this kind of writing by the way: Self-indulgence. Also masterbation.

Let me tell you right off what the result will be: to your amazement given how much you love yourself and want to write about yourself, 90% of readers will not be so fascinated by you as you are. And they will no more want to read one or ten books about you (or your idealized image) than they want to watch you masterbate.

If you're secretive, silent, etc. as your "hero" is, then I'm sorry to tell you that you're pretty boring. I'd rather read about the other guy.

But, hey, whatever floats your boat. Have fun with yourself and your, er, ubercool staff (it all makes perfect sense now....and you said it wasn't erotic!)

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Maybe what you need is a definition of "Science Fiction". First it's NOT space ships, ray guns and light sabers. It's NOT alien monstors a la Fredick Pohl. All that is fantasy, not sci-fi.

Sci-Fi is an "ALTERNATE UNIVERSE" that works. That universe can be in the present (PK Dick's Man a the High Castle, or LaGuinn's Lathe of Heaven. It can be in another time (future or past) like Henlein's Starship Trooper (the book not the dog of a movie, Steven King's Dark Tower Series or as 3113 suggested, Hurbert's Dune.

But the other part of the definition is "...that WORKS." That means it has good character and plot development, but more it should be something new and imaginative. In other words is should be as good a story as any non-sci-fi story.

Back in the 50's and early 60's much of Sci-Fi was pulp fiction. A few of the writers were good though (Cornbluth, Williamson, etc). Since the mid 60's Sci-Fi has grown up and become a ligit literary genre. Along with the improvement in writing skills among the authors, the readers have become much more savey and selective about good Sci-Fi.

You need to think this through a little more and come up with a viable universe and plot before you get too far into Star Wars.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Weird Harold]

Well, I don't really care how you categorize it. I haven't completely decided on who the story will revolve around (although quite a bit will obviously revolve around our hero), so how you got "the other guy" as a main character out of that, beats me. I basically just wrote an opening, and described an outline of some of the story, and described the characters a bit. Plus my Übercool STAFF!

I agree with the others that your synopsis is a generic "Epic Fantasy" rather than Science Fiction.

The distinction DOES make a difference in how you write the story. Science Fiction "worlds" are built around a "single" change (usually a technoogical change) and extrapolates how that change affects characters and society; you're limited to that single change and extrapolation from that change in building your "world"

A good example is S.M. Stirling's Dies The Fire Trilogy, which explores what would happen to the world if all out modern techology stopped working.

Epic Fantasy gives you a lot more freedom to rewrite the way the world works, but even then you have to estblish rules for the way your alternate reality works and stick to them. Check out The Rivan Codex by David and Leigh Eddings for a lot of good information on how to build a fantasy universe -- and the amount of background work that is required; even if it never gets into the actual story.

Whether you call it "Science Fiction" or "Fantasy," the kind of story you're contemplating is a LOT more work than contemporary fiction.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Whether you call it "Science Fiction" or "Fantasy," the kind of story you're contemplating is a LOT more work than contemporary fiction.

You are absolutely correct, Harold. In order to make good a good Sci-Fi universe work, in a way, you have to begin with Genisis and work forward from there. You have to develop a time frame, an environment, costumes and, most important, a basis for the existance of the universe.

That's the minimum you have to do to make the story "believable". Modern readers will always look for that while fantasy readers are far less selective.

 

[3113]

That's the minimum you have to do to make the story "believable". Modern readers will always look for that while fantasy readers are far less selective.

Good point, Jenny. Of course, we're assuming into the far future here--but Star Wars books got read because they're a media tie-in. Most science fiction books still have a very demanding audience. They don't go for anything sloppy or too cliché, not even books that are closer to Space Opera. Even books with big space battles need some science (like the popular Honor Harrington books).

Decades of science fiction, with growth and development behind them, make the readers almost as mature as the literature.

Fantasy readers, on the other hand, are far less picky (though, IMHO, they should not be!). They're will accept and enjoy clichés and even stories based on a game, so long as that game is as much fun for them to play as they read as it was for the gamer to play.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Good point, Jenny. Of course, we're assuming into the far future here--but Star Wars books got read because they're a media tie-in. Most science fiction books still have a very demanding audience. They don't go for anything sloppy or too cliché, not even books that are closer to Space Opera. Even books with big space battles need some science (like the popular Honor Harrington books).

I'm not sure it has to be assumed that it's future, 3113. After all, HG Wells Time Machine was contemporary when it was written but went into the past. At that point, Wells was faced with the same problem of building an alternate universe that worked from the ground up. Many of PK Dicks works were contemporary but set in alternate universes (Counter Clock World, etc.)

Fantasy readers, on the other hand, are far less picky (though, IMHO, they should not be!). They're will accept and enjoy clichés and even stories based on a game, so long as that game is as much fun for them to play as they read as it was for the gamer to play.

There's a lot of truth there. The original Star Wars books were not all that great, even for the Space Fantasy. But the movie series coupled with the advertising hype and all the associated merchendising (Lunch Boxes, for God Sake!) made all the difference.

 

[ChilledVodkaIV]

I'm so fucking SICK of old men training the young with staffs and shit. I'm so FUCKING SICK of Kung-fu masters no matter what costume they wear.

Except, of course, for 'Sweeper'. You love him. And you want to marry him and bear his children.

Nice site for skiffy types. They have an 'aspiring writers' board.

 

[daevil1]

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[Harry Leg]

Let me just put this clear, no matter how cliché, or uninteresting my writing is here, it's just basically all my thoughts so far around the subject. Of course I need to think things through, but to be fair I'm not even sure what's gonna happen yet, why etc. (Writers block). I don't care if it's gonna sell a million copies, or just one copy of (a) potential book(s) that'll come from this story. (well I care a bit since I'll earn some money in the first case scenario). Anyway, I'm writing this mostly for myself since I always wanted to write a book or two, if you want to complain about how clichéfilled and boring it is, be my guest, but you could at least have the decency to tell me what I should do instead, when you feel the need to tell me how much wrong I'm doing. Just my two cents.

I'm trying not to be overly critical, and it's not that you're doing something wrong; it's just that there isn't alot there to go on. They are just vague ideas that lead to no where. In my humble opinion, you need to first work out a plot, then a believable world to place it in. There are many different approaches to accomplish what you want to achieve, but you don't have much of a basis to work from.
I think you need to work out alot more before you can expect anyone to give you any kind of constructive feedback.

 

[3113]

I'm not sure it has to be assumed that it's future, 3113.

My mistake there. I had to get going and didn't finish the thought. I'd better go back an edit it. What I meant was, we're assuming that in the future, Daevil1 will not only write this book, but present it to be read either in paper or internet form and that it will be as he describes it now. Project into the future, thus, we can make assumptions on how readers may respond, but we don't know what will happen between this idea and the finished product is there is one

Sorry for the sloppy and incompleted/unedited post. Bad 3113! Bad writer!

 

[cloudy]

Let me just put this clear, no matter how cliché, or uninteresting my writing is here, it's just basically all my thoughts so far around the subject. Of course I need to think things through, but to be fair I'm not even sure what's gonna happen yet, why etc. (Writers block). I don't care if it's gonna sell a million copies, or just one copy of (a) potential book(s) that'll come from this story. (well I care a bit since I'll earn some money in the first case scenario). Anyway, I'm writing this mostly for myself since I always wanted to write a book or two, if you want to complain about how clichéfilled and boring it is, be my guest, but you could at least have the decency to tell me what I should do instead, when you feel the need to tell me how much wrong I'm doing. Just my two cents.

Dude....a word of friendly (I promise) advice: grow a thick skin. If what people are saying here is getting to you that badly, just wait until a reader trashes your baby (story) in public comments, and tells you how horrible/stupid/sick/(insert derogatory comment here) you are.

Writing for yourself is fine, in fact....most of us here write because we would go insane if we didn't. That said, you are also putting something out there for an audience to read, and hopefully, enjoy.

This board may be sort of unforgiving of cliche' (such as mirror scenes, or the infamous "I'm cuuummmmmmiiinnnnnggg!"), but we are also your best bet to bounce ideas off of, and get some perspective on what you are planning to write, as well as a great place for research help, finding someone to proofread/edit, or just a place to whine when you have writer's block. BUT if you're going to get all that upset because someone tells you something is cliche', you've got a hard row ahead of you.

Tryin' to help, no shit.

and that, folks, is my good deed for the week.

 

[Dr_Strabismus]

daevil1, you remind me of my 15-year-old nephew, bless him, who writes pages and pages of characters and weapons, and huge maps drawn in felt-tip pens. He then tries to get me to read his "story", because he knows how much I love science fiction. I haven't the heart to tell him that his stuff is as close to a story as a drawer full of action figures.

 

[Weird Harold]

...at least have the decency to tell me what I should do instead, ...

I did: read The Rivan Codex by David and Leigh Eddings. At least read the introduction, where the checklist for writing an Epic Fantasy can be found. The checklist pretty much applies to creating a Science Fiction Epic as well as it does to writing Epic Fantasy.

Right now, you're essentially blocked at step two, "The Quest" -- you don't have a clear definition of what the story is going to be about.

 

[ChilledVodkaIV]

Right now, you're essentially blocked at step two, "The Quest" -- you don't have a clear definition of what the story is going to be about.

not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[3113]

Anyway, I'm writing this mostly for myself since I always wanted to write a book or two, if you want to complain about how clichéfilled and boring it is, be my guest, but you could at least have the decency to tell me what I should do instead

I will give you 5 things to do instead. You tell me if you are willing to do any or all of them. But if you're not, don't come back here and complain that no one is willing to help you. We're willing. But you've got to be willing as well to plunge into this and do some real work.

That work includes giving us some tangable answers to our questions and an organized and clear synopsis instead of a mess. You can't work with a mess and neither can we. Putting it another way: you've taken all your favorite ingredients out of the refrigerator and pantry, piled them up in the middle of the kitchen floor, and told us, "I want to cook a meal from all this, what should I cook and how should I cook it?"

THAT is what your original post looks like to us.

Pretty obnoxious, no? How the fuck should we know what you should cook or how from that mess? It's up to YOU, not us, to pick out the stuff you really, really, really want to work with, put it neatly on the counter and then tell us, "What can I make from this?" And when we make suggestions, it's up to YOU to say, "I'd like to make THAT" and then we'll offer you suggestions on how to cook it, and whether those are the best ingredients, etc.

Does this make sense?

Any one or all of the following will break your writer's block and help you to decide what ingredients you really want in your story, and what kind of story you might want to write so we can advise you on how to write it:

1) Think about why you like the cliches you like. For example, why do you like Batman type characters who are silent and secretive--rather than ones who talk? If you really like them, that's fine. But you must THINK about what kinds of stories work well for them. Batman doesn't talk a lot. But he has villians and side characters who do. Batman also works well because he's got tragedy in his background, a CLEAR mission, rules he follows, etc.

This means that your character must as well if he's going to work. Is this getting through to you? You can't just say, "My character is secretive and silent." You have to figure our WHY he's secretive and silent. What happened in his childhood to make him that way? What good does it do him? And how will it help or hurt him in the story?

2) Think about what playgrounds (universes) you want to play in and WHY. What's fun about them? What do you enjoy most? Does your silent, secretive character REALLY work in it? Batman works in Gotham city, but he's not going to work in Star Wars.

Fit characters to setting. Make sure they work together.

3) Get a plot. Get a plot. Get a plot. One that you can tell us in three sentences or less. At the very least, think about what the problem is that your hero must face. What is going to be the central problem in the story that the hero must solve? And if he doesn't solve it, what will happen? Will the Death Star destroy the rebellion?

4) You are on a forum filled with writers. Many of us have short stories you can read to judge whether we are worth listening to or not. But I assure you that any new writer like you, who boasts about how much they're going to be able to write about their character because it is them and their story, and how "ubercool" is the weapon they've created--that writer is going to be greeted with skepticism. WHY? Because we read and we write. We read and write and read and write and read and read and write.

Which means we've read the story you want to write more than once and we might even have written it ourselves a few times as well. For example, that ubercool weapon of yours: is it as cool as Green Lantern's ring? Elric's sword? The gadgets used by James Bond? Or how about that white-haired mentor--is he as likeable as Obi Wan Kenobi? As tough as Stick from Daredevil? As intreguing as Gandalf the Grey?

Which is why, if we tell you to FUCKING READ SOMETHING, then you should. You should because it going to help you. It's going to help you because it's going to give you an education in how to write those cliches in a good way rather than in a boring way. Every, single one of us is a reader as well as a writer. Reading is how you gain vocabulary, knowledge of sentence structure, plot, characterization and dialogue. You have to be willing to read.

5) It doesn't matter if you want to write for your self or others, if you're serious about writing a story, then you have to put the story first. Putting the story first means that if something is not working, then however much you love and adore it, you will get rid of it. Ask any of us, we'll tell you--there have been characters we loved that we dumped. Scenes we adored that we cut out. Ubercool weapons that we shredded in the paper shredder because they did NOTHING for the story.

What matters to us is writing the best story we can write. Always.

So the fifth and last thing I will tell you to do is to make that the thing that matters most to you. That it be the best story you can write, no matter how much reading, editing, research or re-writing it takes. Can you do that?

 

[Harry Leg]

Ah...Elric's sword. I loved that.

 

[dirtylover]

Hi daevil1 - great to hear that you're writing and have got loads of enthusiasm.

It seems that you've made an important first step – imagining a world and its people.


My advice: (1) Start off aiming to write something much shorter, say 2,000 words. Restrict yourself to no more than 2 or 3 main characters. Describe one thing that happens to your main character. By doing this you’ll get a nice, clear story; it could even be your first chapter!

(2) Don’t try and describe every detail of your world. Let your characters reveal it for you:

e.g. “I can’t believe what’s happened to The Emperor,” said Mr Hero. “He was a good guy.”

This conveys more information to the reader – they learn about the world and Mr Hero. Narrative also helps make the story more immediate and exciting.

(3) Spell check your work before asking people to read it.

(4) Don’t give up. You’ve got some great ideas and it sounds like your having fun. Criticism is always hard to take, but use it to help you rather than deter you.

If you have a piece you’d like me to read through, let me know (I’m also a fan of Sci-fi), but please proof read it first.