Women have complicated clothing

[Harryasaboy]

As a writer in training it never ceases to amaze me at how ignorant I am about things. Right now my biggest problem is describing women's clothing. As a male, I have always viewed clothes as an impediment to nudity. Now I realize that good writing isn't always how fast can I get her naked. I need to describe what she is wearing and how it stimulates the imagination and makes the reader look forward to what will happen next. Easier said than done.

Why is it so difficult? When I was young and single, my laundry was simple. I just threw it all in, add some detergent and press the cold wash button. Now married and with a teen daughter, I am still baffled by the level of difficulty in cleaning their clothes. Not only by the complex care instructions, but by the sheer variety. How many styles of undergarments are there? Shoes, shirts, dresses, skirts, hats and whatnot it boggles my mind, what's a man to do? The last story I wrote I decided to do a little research on cheerleader undergarments. Of course that was the moment my daughter walked by and asked me why I was looking at women's panties. I told her it was for my story, but she looked at me weirdly anyway.
Is there a dummies guide to women's fashion out there?

 

[lovecraft68]

Is there a dummies guide to women's fashion out there?

Yup, google.

search women's fashion, skirts, dresses, thongs etc...pick something you like and describe it in your words.

 

[legerdemer]

For starters, try Victoria's Secret for (mid-priced) lingerie.

How old is your character? That will affect where you should look for other clothing. Price range she would be willing to pay also affects what she'd wear.

Or you can keep it simple. Pants, skirt, blouse/shirt/T-shirt, dress etc.

 

[sr71plt]

No, you don't have to describe in detail what she's wearing--unless there's some plot- or character-driven need to include it.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

As a writer in training it never ceases to amaze me at how ignorant I am about things. Right now my biggest problem is describing women's clothing. As a male, I have always viewed clothes as an impediment to nudity. Now I realize that good writing isn't always how fast can I get her naked. I need to describe what she is wearing and how it stimulates the imagination and makes the reader look forward to what will happen next. Easier said than done.

Why is it so difficult? When I was young and single, my laundry was simple. I just threw it all in, add some detergent and press the cold wash button. Now married and with a teen daughter, I am still baffled by the level of difficulty in cleaning their clothes. Not only by the complex care instructions, but by the sheer variety. How many styles of undergarments are there? Shoes, shirts, dresses, skirts, hats and whatnot it boggles my mind, what's a man to do? The last story I wrote I decided to do a little research on cheerleader undergarments. Of course that was the moment my daughter walked by and asked me why I was looking at women's panties. I told her it was for my story, but she looked at me weirdly anyway.
Is there a dummies guide to women's fashion out there?

Haha, now try actually wearing some of this nonsense.
You have already been given some good suggestions of researching via google or clothing magazines/websites, but if you're looking for a lingerie thread to read/join in on:
here's one, and the op works in the lingerie industry.

 

[lovecraft68]

No, you don't have to describe in detail what she's wearing--unless there's some plot- or character-driven need to include it.

To a degree, I think "a red dress" isn't quite enough, but it doesn't have to be so specific it reads like a menu.

 

[jenibee]

Briefly mentioning the fabric, at least for me, is a nice touch and still suspends the disbelief.

With that said, try to avoid "silk" and "satin"; I think they're overused and usually used incorrectly.

Denim shorts can be cute. Knit tights can be sexy (think yoga pants). Lacy bras are nice.

Silk Stalkings is a TV show from the 1990s, however.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

Is there a dummies guide to women's fashion out there?

No. I had a friend who was into fashion and had a great eye for what looked good on her. She spent a lot of time with online catalogs and some with fashion blogs, and one day I got curious enough about her world to have her explain what she was looking for and how she decided what to choose.

Forget it. I'm convinced there's a sex-linked gene for caring about this stuff. It's either in your blood to care and care deeply about clothing and the messages it sends, or it isn't. She made a genuine effort to explain the rules that drove what she'd wear and when, but there were too many factors and special cases. We never got past shoes. All I can tell you is that for some people, it really DOES take a half an hour to decide between closed toe and open toe, and to them, it matters. In her defense she got fantastic results.

The good news is that if you're writing from a male point of view, you'll never notice. For you it comes down to how much skin is showing, and maybe some stuff you'll never consciously grok about how certain colors bring out her eyes. Your character doesn't have to know the names of any of the literally dozens of shoe styles out there; he only needs to understand them mechanically so he can get them off, if he's going to bother.

I made one attempt to write a story in which a woman gets dressed - it's called "Getting Dressed" and it's my attempt to capture a little of what I learned. It rates ok for a one page story, but a couple of people have told me "I did a good job, but they could tell it was written by a guy."

 

[PennLady]

Speaking as a woman, but not a very fashion-conscious one, I almost never describe clothing beyond the most basic in my stories. Of course I've also been known not to describe my characters very much either, so I suppose it's not surprising I wouldn't do much on the clothing either.

I guess the question is -- does it matter? Does it matter what the woman is wearing? It might if it's what the guy (or other woman) notices -- maybe the short skirt emphasizes nice legs, or the color brings out her eyes or makes a contrast, etc. Maybe the lace makes her look vulnerable, whatever.

But I'd say there's no general need or requirement to describe the clothing, but if you feel it's important to the story some how, then sure, provide some detail. But I don't think it's as complicated as it might seem.

 

[legerdemer]

One thing I might add, in support what others have said - keep it simple, but something like "a body-hugging dress" or "a skirt that flirted with her thighs" might denote an aspect of the character's personality. We (women) dress very much in accordance to our personalities. When we step outside our comfort zones, it's to impress (sometimes successfully, sometimes not) or to give ourselves greater confidence or to give a misleading impression of how demure we might be. This is the only reason to go into any detail about clothes, and it should be spare.

 

[Handley_Page]

Why is it so difficult? When I was young and single, my laundry was simple. I just threw it all in, add some detergent and press the cold wash button. Now married and with a teen daughter, I am still baffled by the level of difficulty in cleaning their clothes. Not only by the complex care instructions, but by the sheer variety.

Is there a dummies guide to women's fashion out there?

Just chuck it all in the machine as you once did;
No point in labouring the point.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Speaking as a woman, but not a very fashion-conscious one, I almost never describe clothing beyond the most basic in my stories. Of course I've also been known not to describe my characters very much either, so I suppose it's not surprising I wouldn't do much on the clothing either.

I guess the question is -- does it matter? Does it matter what the woman is wearing? It might if it's what the guy (or other woman) notices -- maybe the short skirt emphasizes nice legs, or the color brings out her eyes or makes a contrast, etc. Maybe the lace makes her look vulnerable, whatever.

I'm not big on visual description for the sake of visuals, but I do find clothing is handy as a social signal. If I mention that a woman wears jeans and T-shirt at a workplace where everybody else is in skirts and dresses, that can be quite a compact way to suggest how she relates to her colleagues. There's a bit in one of mine where the young narrator finds common ground with her girlfriend's conservative grandma over pockets in dresses.

If I'm not using it for that sort of role, then I tend not to think about it. One of my readers picked up a continuity glitch in my latest story where somebody got out of the same clothes twice, because I just don't visualise that stuff while I'm writing.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

I find some of the responses here surprising. I am by no means a fashion conscience person myself, but I am highly visual in nature, and am well aware that clothing can alter perceptions. I enjoy a bit of people watching, and I definitely take notice of what people are wearing and what message they are trying to project with that wardrobe. No, brand names and specific sizing is not needed, but detail, whether it's the kind of fabric, the cut of something, ect. may be exceedingly important to include, if that detail means something to one of the characters. Specific clothing can highlight specific fetishes. Maybe one character catching sight of someone else wearing a long fashion scarf sparks a bondage fantasy for that character while another drools over certain shoes, or is always looking for a glimpse of a slip to get them going. Maybe a character is providing a strip tease; just saying 'she took off her tight black dress to reveal her matching knickers' would be boring in such a scenario. I like the written visuals, because of the insights they can provide about the characters, and I think it's great that the op would like to broaden their knowledge base, even on something so supposedly trivial as clothing.

 

[TxRad]

Clothing trivial? Not even close. If the average guy tries to undress a woman with his eyes, what does a nudist do? From a nudists point of view (everyone naked) there are no clues as to who or what a person is until they open their mouth.

Clothes say a lot about a person and the image they are trying to convey. What they wear and how they wear it. What they might not be wearing that most people would. No bra and or no panties under a long dress or a long skirt and blouse.

Someone mentioned bondage. How about wearing long skirts and long sleeved blouses until the rope bruises go away. So the lady dresses normally most of the time but is all covered up for short periods of time. I have a young friend who likes self bondage. She ties a rope corset with crotch ropes, puts on a loose fitting dress and goes out to do her shopping.

Clothes hide many things or they can highlight many things.

Clothes are a writers dream if they take the time to use them.

 

[oggbashan]

In some of my stories women's clothes take up too much of the story. It is something I have to watch when writing because I can overdo the descriptions. In a couple of stories I have characters commenting on the excessive detail of clothing.

I am thinking of writing a set of stories about clothing, just for the few readers who like my femdom with clothing stories. I have a folder with half a dozen part complete linked stories but whether I will actually post them? I'm not sure.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

I'm not big on visual description for the sake of visuals, but I do find clothing is handy as a social signal. If I mention that a woman wears jeans and T-shirt at a workplace where everybody else is in skirts and dresses, that can be quite a compact way to suggest how she relates to her colleagues.

This is exactly what I mean. I'd assume she liked jeans. If there's some larger message about her interaction with her coworkers, it's sailing right by. Unless a woman is dressing to be sexy (says my male mind), who cares who wears what? I get that it's an artform, but honestly I can't tell a Rembrandt from a Picasso either (and I'm reliably told that's not hard to do). So with this.

Is she supposed to be signalling that she has no romantic interest in office workers? If she's pretty that's not going to work; pretty women can wear rags and men will still assume they want to be hit on. If she's unattractive she's invisible no matter what she wears.

Eh. I write first person female characters well enough that female readers have assumed I'm female, until they checked my bio. I have my insights. Into everything but this. Genetic, I tell you.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

Is she supposed to be signalling that she has no romantic interest in office workers? If she's pretty that's not going to work; pretty women can wear rags and men will still assume they want to be hit on. If she's unattractive she's invisible no matter what she wears.

^I hate this mentality. Yes there are clothing signals, (to be left alone) and more men would benefit to learn them. If I'm working on a home project, and need to run out to the hardware store for something--in gross weekend warrior 'rags' covered in drywall, paint, stain, and/or some unidentifiable substance, without makeup, and my hair a mess--the last thing I want is for dudes to hit on me. I just want to get whatever I need for my project, and then get home to finish my project, but ^that, every fucking time. That shit is frustrating not flattering.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

^I hate this mentality. Yes there are clothing signals, (to be left alone) and more men would benefit to learn them. If I'm working on a home project, and need to run out to the hardware store for something--in gross weekend warrior 'rags' covered in drywall, paint, stain, and/or some unidentifiable substance, without makeup, and my hair a mess--the last thing I want is for dudes to hit on me. I just want to get whatever I need for my project, and then get home to finish my project, but ^that, every fucking time. That shit is frustrating not flattering.

I didn't say it was as things should be; I'm not defending the behaviour. I'm reporting it.

At root, at some primitive level below conscious thought, men are hunters and you're the prey and no one really cares what camouflage prey wears; camouflaged prey is still prey. We know what's under the rags (or finery) and that's what's interesting. How you dress is mostly just noise, unless you're dressing for sex. (Now that's a signal men are capable of understanding.)

Short of rewriting the Y chromosome, and rewriting culture, that "frustrating shit" isn't likely going away. But you can take some comfort in the fact that in 30 years, men will probably leave you alone.

Personally, I'd be happy if we could get a far as eliminating rape from the repertoire of male sexual behaviour. Flirting and ogling... sorry, no, those are never going out of style.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

I didn't say it was as things should be; I'm not defending the behaviour. I'm reporting it.

At root, at some primitive level below conscious thought, men are hunters and you're the prey and no one really cares what camouflage prey wears; camouflaged prey is still prey.

Every time I read that last line, it makes me laugh. So thanks for that. I pity you if you are not acquainted with any huntresses in your life; they are a fun bred.

We know what's under the rags (or finery) and that's what's interesting. How you dress is mostly just noise, unless you're dressing for sex. (Now that's a signal men are capable of understanding.)

Riighhht, because it's well documented that men have never misinterpreted such intentions.
Anyway...describing clothing while writing stories...discuss.

 

[legerdemer]

Anyway...describing clothing while writing stories...discuss.

In my own writing, I frequently do. Not brands, but types, the fit, and how the female character feels in relation to her clothing.

While dressing for the hunter is one thing, the truth is many women dress for themselves and in relationship to other women. When I feel sexy, I dress sexy. When I need to project a business-like mien, I armor up - almost literally - and it changes my attitude.

I think these types of attitudes conveyed using the vocabulary of clothing are critical even if men don't or can't read them correctly. They change the female wearer's stance, and they change the way other women perceive her, which may in turn affect how the hunter perceives her (or not).

And in my experience, all men are not equally oblivious. Some are quite perceptive, and receptive.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

In my own writing, I frequently do. Not brands, but types, the fit, and how the female character feels in relation to her clothing.

While dressing for the hunter is one thing, the truth is many women dress for themselves and in relationship to other women. When I feel sexy, I dress sexy. When I need to project a business-like mien, I armor up - almost literally - and it changes my attitude.

I think these types of attitudes conveyed using the vocabulary of clothing are critical even if men don't or can't read them correctly. They change the female wearer's stance, and they change the way other women perceive her, which may in turn affect how the hunter perceives her (or not).

And in my experience, all men are not equally oblivious. Some are quite perceptive, and receptive.

I agree with you, but would also add that women are not just judging each other, which may/may not affect the 'hunter's' perceptions, but also that women will judge the 'hunter' for what he is pursuing utilizing a multitude of social clues including her 'camouflage'.

So then, do writers here put such extra thought into stories and sweat over the readers judging characters based on a lack of detail when writing about clothing, like the op, or is the op over thinking the details?

 

[OliviaM]

My first post on lit and I'm using it to express opinions. Goodness!

Oh gosh. The clothing problem. I think "how to describe clothing" is a universal struggle for writers. I agree with the posters above who said generalizations or vagueness is best. Unless the exact piece of clothing is important for some reason, I think it's okay to let readers use their imaginations to figure out what you mean by a red dress or a tight white t-shirt.

It sounds like you’re already doing what you need to be doing. I think the key to getting clothing right is to ignore the clothing and focus on the person wearing them. Who are they? How much money do they spend on clothes? Do they even care about clothes? (Some women don’t!) What time period is this? A cheerleader in 1976 looks very different from a cheerleader in 2016. What was your character doing earlier that day? Where are they going? Who are they about to see? If I’m headed to the store, I throw on jeans. If I’m meeting my husband for drinks, I’ll wear a slinky dress and red lipstick. Base your searches around who the person is before you start thinking of items of clothing. Try phrases like “street fashion New York” or “cheerleader Alabama” and go from there.

I'd also like to second those who pointed out that women primarily dress for themselves. I may want to look nice for my dinner out with other women or dress up for my husband, but those are people I know. Sometimes random men just like to assume it's meant for them. Red dress because you just liked the color? Yoga pants because you were just at yoga and goddammit you just remembered you’re out of milk and there’s no time to go to the store later? Baggy sweats because it’s laundry day but you wanted a coffee first? Doesn't matter. You're wearing it because you want attention, and you want it from whichever guy happens to be hitting on you at the moment. I won't even get into the hunter/prey comments, which are not universally true. Ditching these outdated ideas will help you become a better writer, even when your writing is set in a universe where sexist or just plain wrongheaded ideas are fundamentally true (which, as a fan of non-con, can be completely fun, I admit).

 

[HandsInTheDark]

While dressing for the hunter is one thing, the truth is many women dress for themselves and in relationship to other women. When I feel sexy, I dress sexy. When I need to project a business-like mien, I armor up - almost literally - and it changes my attitude.

Which reminded me of

All that was left was the dress.

The dress would turn me into a slut. I knew that. Every dress turns you into something, that's what dresses do. When you just want to be yourself, there's jeans and an old t shirt. But dresses are alchemy; they change you. This one would make me into a plaything for the male eye and the male hand. I'd walk across the floor, in my red heels and my black, thin, stretchy, translucent-in-parts dress, knowing I'd put it on so I would be looked at and hungered after. And I knew from experience, that being in a room of men that wanted me, turned me inside out. You can't help thinking about what they are all thinking about. My fantasies would run wanton, wild. The dress would compel me to be bad...and make me want to be worse.

I hung the dress in the air, next to my body, and looked in the mirror. There was still time for the black shoes and navy dress. This dress was so light it felt insubstantial. Like it would be no protection at all. Like I'd be... naked.

Oh fuck, not that fantasy. Any fantasy but that one right now. ...

Dressing a female character for a hot date is something I can write about. Other written social situations, I don't try, or keep it very simple.

In the real world when women try to dress in "take me seriously" business attire, I have to struggle not to tune them out. In my profession, your value is proportional only to what is between your ears - it's an engineering discipline and competence and experience are all that matter. If you have to dress to impress, you've already failed, whatever gender you are. There's a reason "suits" is a dismissive term for a certain class of people (regardless of gender) among people who do actual work.

 

[OliviaM]

In the real world when women try to dress in "take me seriously" business attire, I have to struggle not to tune them out. In my profession, your value is proportional only to what is between your ears - it's an engineering discipline and competence and experience are all that matter. If you have to dress to impress, you've already failed, whatever gender you are. There's a reason "suits" is a dismissive term for a certain class of people (regardless of gender) among people who do actual work.

I will try to keep this on-topic as far as understanding women and clothing and why we choose to wear what we do...

The comment above is why women are damned if you do, damned if you don't. If we wear suits, we're trying too hard. If we wear casual clothing, we're not trying hard enough. And damn me if I wear a dress, because then I'm obviously not thinking about work. I just want to be fucked. (That passage you quoted was rather good, by the way.)

Tell me, darling, what exactly could women in your work environment wear that would be appropriate for you? And why does it matter to you? If they're a good coder or an engineer, it shouldn't matter either way, right?

 

[Paul_Chance]

I would chime in and agree that unless the clothing matters there is no need to go into great detail. The times I would include it would be if it moved the plot in someway or if it was clothing-erotica.