Will Lit Ever Be Legit?

[dr_mabeuse]

Do you think the kind of stuff we write in Literotica will ever be considered mainstream? (I mean, questions of quality aside. )

On another thread, Chimney Sweep made a little joke about what her HS English teacher would think if she could see how CS used what she had been taught. I remember being in grammar school and being forbidden to write sci-fi or violent stuff, the kind of stuff that you see all over in bookstores these days.

Do you think erotica--porn, if you'd prefer--will ever make it to the mainstream? I'm aware of the occasional "9 1/2 Weeks" or Anais Nin retread, and I'm aware that most best sellers now have obligatory graphic scenes, but do you think our stuff will ever gain respectability?

I know what you're going to say: you're going to say it depends on the quality of the writing. But look, there's a lot of really bad quality horror and romance and sci-fi out there, all representing genres which were once dismissed as being low class. I'm just wondering whether what we write will ever gain that kind of acceptance that shlock from previous generations has achived today.

---dr.M.

 

[Pure]

Well, "Story of O" is in our university library. Does that count?
Probably also Henry Miller's _Sexus_.

 

[bridgeburner]

I honestly couldn't say, Dr. M. There has been a huge trend in the Romance genre in recent years for "erotic" romances. Emma Holly who is a long-time erotic author for Black Lace has written some cross-over romances that were well received by a large number of romance readers.

I think it would be great if porn were to be legitimized by romance readers with all their attendant stereotypes. That joke would keep me laughing for years. It just might happen, too.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if I necessarily want porn to be legitimized. Certainly it would be a healthy thing, but there's a part of me that feels some of the titillation factor would go out of it if I could pick up The Years Best Non-Consent Stories at the corner grocery.

Other than the loss of the taboo, I can't think of a single bad thing about the legitimization of porn. I think it's unlikely to happen in the US first, though, especially with the current administration and the howling of the Religious Right. I'd look to the UK. After all, Virgin's Black Lace label has been up and running for years and doing quite well. If only they could do something about those awful covers!


-B

 

[prtylilstranger]

Hmmm...I'm thinking on this one, and I think there is more than one answer I like.

I was going to say yes, as really good authors knock down barriers, blah, blah, blah. But then I thought, you know what? No. Because part of the call of erotica, part of the thing we love about it, is that it's NOT mainstream. Take away the naughty factor, and it loses a lot of its gloss, don't you think?

 

[Seattle Zack]

In the 70's I remember porn being pretty mainstream, part of the "sexual liberation" and all. Deep Throat was shown at our local movie theater, with couples on dates and husbands and wives going to see it -- nothing like the seedy theaters today. Of course, the emergence of videotape and the mega-porn industry had a lot to do with the decline of pornographic "features."

Many popular writers got their start writing porn; Lawrence Block wrote lesbian porn for years before hitting it big with his detective novels, and Anne Rice is another example.

With the emergence of so many smaller niche publishers and e-books nowadays, it's easier than ever to get published. Amazon.com has a huge selection of erotica from hundreds of different publishers. Erotica is a burgeoning market, and there are quality writers that are recognized.

I doubt it will ever be truly mainstream, though, because that requires widespread distribution. Somehow, I doubt I'll ever see "The Best of S/M Erotica" for sale at Safeway or Wal-Mart.

 

[Quasimodem]

Interesting question, Doc.

In "Future Shock," if your memory reaches that far back into the past, Alvin Toffler stated that science fiction would become more important as a method of insulating one from the drastic changes future societies would be forced to undergo.

I am not certain that his hypothesis was completely correct. However, upon the announcement of the genesis of Dolly the sheep, almost everyone other than politicians and fundamentalist ministers had already encountered the concept of cloning.

They had already accepted it, if only as a fantasy.

Larry Niven wrote of "Organleggers" in the late 60's.

Now, one occasionally learns of people murdered for their organs. More commonplace is the situation wherein old farts, blessed with a sufficiency of funds, are curiously found at the head of organ donation lists, while poor youths – even children – don't make the cut.

When governments start harvesting organs from death row, we will have arrived at Niven's point of departure.

While I have occasionally learned new concepts from Pornerotica – For example: only after going online did I learn the definition of a "Golden Shower" – I have never encountered anything that I could not have survived, in ignorance.

When pornography educates a little, as well as titillates, perhaps it will carve out its own area of legitimacy.

As long as one can encounter serious criticism that the pornographer's function is ONLY to conjure cum, raise hard-ons, or satisfy ‘stroke' readers, I doubt that any era of legitimacy is near.

 

[MathGirl]

As long as one can encounter serious criticism that the pornographer's function is ONLY to conjure cum, raise hard-ons, or satisfy ‘stroke' readers, I doubt that any era of legitimacy is near.

I would have to agree with Quaz on that one. I just can't see B.Dalton having a smut section.
MG

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Times change. My mom wore a panty girdle in the 50's, every proper young woman did (I have one, talk about no admitance!). The moral pendulum of the country was at it's full swing away from the liberal times of the flapper. The countries moral values seem to swing from one pole to the next, sometimes slowly sometimes quickly.

No matter what you do there will always be a reactionary/radical element to society who will oppose you and it. When it comes to erotica as mainstream there will be the oblicatory "we're going to hell in a handbasket" sermons, but I doubt they will have much more effect than they did on rising hem lines in the 60's.

Books that are more or less erotic are already slipping into respectable book stores like B Dalton and Waldens. They are hidden in categories like new age, alternative, health and self improvement, or women's studies, but they are making inroads slowly.

I don't think your typical beatoff bookshelf stroke pornography will be "appearing at fine retailer's everywhere" anytime soon, but well written well crafted erotica probably will in the near future. Starting with Regan and only slightly slowed by the womanizer in chief Clinton the country has swung over to "old fashioned" morales. I think G.W. is the culmination of that trend. We should start swinging back towards a more liberal outlook in the not too distant future. When we do I think pornography will get a break from the witch hunt currently being waged against it.

After each cycle of Liberal vs. Conservative some new things make it into common practice. I can vote, I don't have to wear a corset or panty girdle, I can work outside the home, if I don't marry I am not ostrazied. Playboy is avialable at most any convienience store or magazine shop in the airport, I can order videos on practically any subject and have them discreetly delivered to my home, I can get Anne Rice's Taming of Sleeping Beauty without having to go to an adult book store. Lit's print anthology can be bought at Barnes & Nobles I think.

The question will probably fall to quality. Somewhere between stroke and Romance lies erotica as distinguished from porn by some arcane formula I am not sure of. When that line is drawn firmly those stories that come down on the erotica side of the line will become mainstream acceptable, those that fall on the porn side will continue to remain the one market that remains stable no matter what the economic enviorment of the country

-Colly

 

[Jenny _S]

Dr. M
Your real question seems to me to be:

"Will the porn on Lit ever become acceptable, mainstream fair?"

I give that a resounding NO. Not because much of the material written on lit isn't acceptably from a technical writing stand point, but because Lit seems to move on with the times.

Let me rephrase the question to read: "Will the stories currently published on Lit someday be acceptable mainstream literature?"
Asked in that way I say YES with out a doubt it will. But when the current stories become accepted, what will the new stories on Lit be like?

Lit seems to push the margin between literature and porn constantly. That margin is moving deeper and deeper all the time into the area of porn. And what about porn? It too is moving outward into new areas as yet unexplored.

Just my thoughts

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Do you think erotica--porn, if you'd prefer--will ever make it to the mainstream

Erotica, yes. It's already happening and the process will be complete within a few years. But, it won't be due to any high-literature crusade for free speech, but to commercial fiction, especially Romance, looking for profits.

Porn, no. Books that are primarily sex for the sake of sex, will continue to have a market, but it will remain in the dark corners of the publishing world.

Rumple "NotreDameus" Foreskin

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I remember when "Deep Throat" was big. Well, maybe chic is a better word. It was kind of like slumming for the trendy set. I also remember when some drugstores--always independents, which are now mostly gone--used to have a rack of dirty books in the back. Made sense: you go to a drug store for your health needs, might as well pick up a masturbation aid while you're there. Certainly society has become more sexually open in the last 50 years, at least in terms of what it's willing to talk about and show in the media...

I remember when Sci-Fi was pretty much non-mainstream, and it was like anyone could break into the field. It was all wild and wooly. Now it has its masters and awards and has gotten all sophisticated. The quality is better, but it just doesn't seem like it's as much fun.

I don't know. I hope porn never becomes legitimate. Then we'd probably get some best-sellers and a porn establishment and all these standards we'd be trying to write up to and masters we'd try and imitate. One of the great things about Literotica is just how wild and unregulated it is. Everyone can write, everyone can fool around, everyone gets a chance to be heard. I'm afraid if it ever goes mainstream we'd lose all that, and then what fun would it be?

---dr.M.

 

[ladylust]

Bridgeburner, "On the other hand, I'm not sure if I necessarily want porn to be legitimized. Certainly it would be a healthy thing, but there's a part of me that feels some of the titillation factor would go out of it if I could pick up The Years Best Non-Consent Stories at the corner grocery."

At the corner groceries around here, it's one better; porn films.

Is that legitmacy?

LL

 

[Icingsugar]

Sex is already mainstram. There are shops all over the place selling nothing but sex. Videos, books, sex-aid tools, clothes, condoms and kinky gear. In Stockholm, every year there is a big Erotica Fair, where the everyday Joes and Janes prance around looking at strapons, crotchless panties and blow-up sheep or whatnot. A few years ago a nation-wide TV gov'ment sanctioned network over here sent softcore porn on friday nights. Page 3 girls, Playboy and Penthouse becoming hip lifestyle magazines, a major sex scene in every Hollywood flick, Cosmopolitan writing about orgasm techniques to an audience wherrea great deeal of them are teenage girls. Compared to this, what are some little erotica stories?

The only thing that are keeping erotica from becoming as publically accepted (unless we count the rantings of the moral mafia of the world) as Harry Potter is this:

Smut should be kept from children, and will thus never gain prime time exposure, or it's equivalrent in other media. (excessive violence have however aready passed that line, but that's another story)

 

[Guest]

Yes, Porn, erotica, sex, nudity will all become mainstream. It won't happen quickly, and as someone else said, there will be naysayers and preachers yelling and screaming about it the entire time.

It has already started as others have noted. It will go even further in the next few years. Within ten to fifteen years, all TV's in the USA will have the V-chip. The greatest baby-sitter in the world will suddenly become PC because the parents will be able to tell it not let their kids watch the sex, drugs and the violence that will appear. And, yes, it will appear. The netorks in this country have censored themselves for 50 years. Once they no longer need to, and with the spread of cable and satellite TV, they will need to compete on all levels with the cable channels. They will have to, or they will go under. Once Sex and nudity become a regular thing on TV, Books will quickly follow. Porn and erotica, (I think of them differently. Erotica has a plot. Porn doesn't) will become legitimate. There WILL be a section in bookstores. There WILL be a widespread occurence of nude beaches. Clothing optional buildings etc.

The conservatives, the religous right to be precise, WILL fight it and will say we are going in the wrong direction. They will lose this time and porn, erotica and naturalism will spread and become second nature. I think it's a good thing.

That's it for me playing ALvin Toffler today. I hope I'm right.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

. Within ten to fifteen years, all TV's in the USA will have the V-chip. The greatest baby-sitter in the world will suddenly become PC because the parents will be able to tell it not let their kids watch the sex, drugs and the violence that will appear.

I absolutely agree about the V-chip. It's going to unleash an absolute flood of porn and violence in broadcast media. I have no sympathy for the bluenoses, but you've got to wonder what they were thinking when they backed this idea. They're going to get exactly what they don't want.

I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that VCR's didn't really take off until porno tapes became widely available. It's a fact that the industry doesn't like to talk about. I've heard that the same is true for the internet, that it didn't become really popular untill people learned there was porn available, and then suddenly everyone wanted to be hooked up.

---dr.M.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

. Within ten to fifteen years, all TV's in the USA will have the V-chip. The greatest baby-sitter in the world will suddenly become PC because the parents will be able to tell it not let their kids watch the sex, drugs and the violence that will appear.

I absolutely agree about the V-chip. It's going to unleash an absolute flood of porn and violence in broadcast media. I have no sympathy for the bluenoses, but you've got to wonder what they were thinking when they backed this idea. They're going to get exactly what they don't want.

I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that VCR's didn't really take off until porno tapes became widely available. It's a fact that the industry doesn't like to talk about. I've heard that the same is true for the internet, that it didn't become really popular untill people learned there was porn available, and then suddenly everyone wanted to be hooked up.

---dr.M.

 

[Icingsugar]

I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that VCR's didn't really take off until porno tapes became widely available. It's a fact that the industry doesn't like to talk about. I've heard that the same is true for the internet, that it didn't become really popular untill people learned there was porn available, and then suddenly everyone wanted to be hooked up.

I don't have the factsa on the impact porn had over the internet's growth, but I do know this:

Pornography was, and still is, where the online commerse works best. It was the early siccess of smut sites that lead everyone and his mother to believe that making money off the web was easy business. Porn was one of the biggest catalysts behind the dotcom-circus. And it's still there that the new, innovative and somtimes sucessful business models for online commerse emerges. At the moment, many a businessman pays close attention to the ever growing world of interlinked online porn teaser sites, to see if it can be applied on their field of the market. (Yes, they probably pays close attention for..ahem..other purposes too. I guess you CAN mix business and pleasure after all.. )

Sex shows the rest of us the way. Hallelujah.

 

[sanchopanza]

how is marquis de sade treated these days?

 

[bridgeburner]

LadyLust,

I forget that many places really do have "corner groceries". We even have our fair share here in SoCal and many of them do sell porn. I was thinking more along the lines of Safeway, Winn Dixie, Ingles, Lucky, Albertsons etc.



-B

 

[flawed_ethics]

how is marquis de sade treated these days?

His name was brought up on ESPN one night. I forget why, but I was like, whoa! What's he doing here?

Interesting discussion. As I am too young to realize the evolution of print over the past half-centry, I'll sit back and state that I agree with current views and trends already posted (a swing from conservative America in the future and the error of the V-Chip).

Anyway, I think de Sade is doing fine.

 

[Sabledrake]

I just can't see B.Dalton having a smut section.
MG

Waldenbooks does ... at least, the one at my mall

Sabledrake

 

[destinie21]

There's always been smut in books
Now that it's unveiled and straight forward, which is to say undisguised we call it porn.

 

[Alex De Kok]

Waterstone's - national bookseller chain - has an 'Erotica' section in at least one of their two branches in Newcastle, here in the UK. I haven't looked at it for a while, but I remember seeing the Literotica book on sale there.

Alex

 

[Guest]

No excuses for bragging about my home again. In the SF bay area one can find erotica sections in any bookstore. We also have more bookstores per population including NYC. I can and do go into a shop and ask for the location of the erotica section w/o lowered voice or blush. No big deal.

FYI, erotica sections include smut, porn, whatever, and "literature".

Perdita

 

[Chicklet]

I think that Erotica is already a fairly popular genre, book form or no. Smut, though...pure sex scenes like we sometimes find on Literotica, I don't think will ever be recognized. As others have mentioned, there are many erotic novels already considered classics. Hey, take Anne Rice's books, for instance. But ya gotta have more than smut.

-Chicklet