Wicked Witches vs Evil Wizards

[AllardChardon]

Born in 1952, I was raised on Walt Disney animated versions of age old European stories. In almost every tale, the antagonist is a horrible woman. Whether an evil queen, wicked witch, mean step-mother or powerful sorceress, it is still a woman. No much mention of evil male figures.

Has this topic been discussed before on LIT? If not, does anyone have any idea why this was the case?

It makes me wonder if I need a good female antagonist in my second novel, like in The Devil Wears Prada.

 

[Trombonus]

Here's the official list of Disney movies. I put the main villain's gender after the title.

1. Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs - Female (Wicked Witch)
2. Pinocchio - Male (Monstro, the guys at the carnival, etc.)
3. Fantasia - N/A
4. Dumbo - N/A (Didn't really have a true villain)
5. Bambi - Male (The hunter)
6. Saludos Amigos (I don't know this one)
7. The Three Caballeros - N/A
8. Make Mine Music - (I don't know this one)
9. Fun And Fancy Free - (Again, I'm not familiar with this one)
10. Melody Time - (Another one I'm not sure of)
11. The Adventures Of Ichabod And Mr. Toad - (Haven't seen)
12. Cinderella - Female (Wicked Step Mother/ Ugly Step-Sisters)
13. Alice In Wonderland - Female (Queen of Hearts)
14. Peter Pan - Male (Captain Hook)
15. Lady And The Tramp - N/A (The Rat?)
16. Sleeping Beauty - Female (Maleficent)
17. 101 Dalmatians - Female (Cruella Deville)
18. The Sword In The Stone - Female (Mad Madam Mimh)
19. The Jungle Book - Male (Sher Kahn)
20. The Aristocats - Male (Edgar)
21. Robin Hood - Male (Prince John, Sheriff of Notingham, Sir Hiss)
22. The Many Adventures Of Winnie The Pooh - N/A
23. The Rescuers - Female (Forget her name, but I do know it's a woman)
24. The Fox And The Hound - N/A
25. The Black Cauldron - Haven't seen it
26. The Great Mouse Detective - Male (Rattigan)
27. Oliver & Company - Male (Loan Guy)
28. The Little Mermaid - Female (Ursula)
29. The Rescuers Down Under - Male (Hunter guy after the Eagle)
30. Beauty And The Beast - Male (Gaston)
31. Aladdin - Male (Jafar)
32. The Lion King - Male (Scar)
33. Pocahontas - Haven't seen it, but pretty sure it was male.
34. The Hunchback Of Notre Dame - Male (Forget his name)
35. Hercules - Male (Hades)
36. Mulan - Male (The leader of the Hun)
37. Tarzan - Male (The hunter guy)
38. Fantasia/2000 - N/A
39. The Emperor's New Groove - Female
40. Atlantis: The Lost Empire - Haven't seen
41. Lilo And Stitch - Male (Hamsterville, Gantu)
42. Treasure Planet - Haven't seen
43. Brother Bear - Don't remember
44. Home On The Range - Haven't seen.

My count:

Male - 17
Female - 9

Even if you don't count the animal characters or lesser villains, it ends up being practically even, with a slight edge to males.

Perhaps it seems there are more evil women characters because those that have them seem to be more popular (Cinderella, Snow White, 101 Dalmations, Alice in Wonderland, etc.)

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, of course a powerful woman has to be evil!

Disney was a stingy bastard. He didn't pay royalties to his voice actors until Peggy Lee successfully sued him over "Lady And The Tramp." And the fairy tales were free of copyright.

I think Disney was interested in the commercial appeal of innocent young women, and the popularity of Cruella De Ville and Malificent might have been a bit of a surprise to him. He could have made other choices, there are plenty of evil wizards in those old stories. One thing that's very interesting, is that the villain usually matches the sex of the young protagonist-- princes battle wizards, princesses battle witches.

I'd like to see a strong female bad guy up against a strong female protagonist in one of your stories!

 

[CharleyH]

Born in 1952, I was raised on Walt Disney animated versions of age old European stories. In almost every tale, the antagonist is a horrible woman. Whether an evil queen, wicked witch, mean step-mother or powerful sorceress, it is still a woman. No much mention of evil male figures.

Has this topic been discussed before on LIT? If not, does anyone have any idea why this was the case?

It makes me wonder if I need a good female antagonist in my second novel, like in The Devil Wears Prada.

I always thought, and correct me if I am wrong, that the term "fairy tale" came from the world of brothels or perhaps "salons" in French?

If you consider LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD? There is no evil woman.

 

[AllardChardon]

Walt Disney animated old world European stories that featured a lot of bad women. Even though he did not do Hansel and Gretel, it is just another example of what I am trying to linvestigate here.

Yes, I agree that male antagonists were used is alot of those other stories, but I was thinking of the classics, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Cinderella. The Brothers Grimm collected these tales and Disney used them. My mother read these stories to me from books before some of them were ever animated.

It makes me wonder why females got the heavy role way back in Europe, which would have to include the Russian witches that liked to eat children. I wonder if my mistrust of women for many years was based on this early stereotyping of powerful and ruthless females, some carnivores, for goodness sake. These are bedtime stories for children? More like horror stories.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I always thought, and correct me if I am wrong, that the term "fairy tale" came from the world of brothels or perhaps "salons" in French?

If you consider LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD? There is no evil woman.

Someone better go back and watch Fantasia again. The greatest of all Disney villians is in it. Unlike other villains who are villains because they do evil, the unmatchable Chernobog is a villain because he is Evil. All you have to do is watch the dancing naked witches transformed in his fiery hand and the expression on his face to understand this.

 

[nightengale70]

wow

trombone dude that was quite painstaking! Obviously a lot of thought went into your answer!

As for fairy tales...I can remember in my Child Lit classes in college...they were NOT for children originally. Charles Perrault's versions were for adults of the French court (if I remember that part of the class lol)...and his versions were NOT like Grimm! They were more of cautionary tales....I also like to read the different variants from around the world.

It's a shame that 95% of the kids that watch Disney will never read the actual Grimm versions. Much better stories than what Walt put on the screen. I like the eroticized version of fairy tales, and there is a new one at Waldenbooks I want to get on Snow White...not sure if it's like A Roquelaire's Beuaty series or not....
oh well just lurking and posting around here....
teresa

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Walt Disney animated old world European stories that featured a lot of bad women. Even though he did not do Hansel and Gretel, it is just another example of what I am trying to linvestigate here.

Yes, I agree that male antagonists were used is alot of those other stories, but I was thinking of the classics, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Cinderella. The Brothers Grimm collected these tales and Disney used them. My mother read these stories to me from books before some of them were ever animated.

It makes me wonder why females got the heavy role way back in Europe, which would have to include the Russian witches that liked to eat children. I wonder if my mistrust of women for many years was based on this early stereotyping of powerful and ruthless females, some carnivores, for goodness sake. These are bedtime stories for children? More like horror stories.

The original fairy tales were not bedtime stories for children. They were told by adults to adults around the fireplace during the long European winter nights after the kids were asleep upstairs in the straw in the loft. If you think the modern versions are bad, see if your nearest university library has a copy of the original English translations of the Brothers Grimm! And they bowlderized heavily, too.

For example, the original story of Little Red Riding Hood is a rape tale and rather a nasty one, so I've read in scholarly reviews.

 

[CharleyH]

Someone better go back and watch Fantasia again. The greatest of all Disney villians is in it. Unlike other villains who are villains because they do evil, the unmatchable Chernobog is a villain because he is Evil. All you have to do is watch the dancing naked witches transformed in his fiery hand and the expression on his face to understand this.

No offence, but I could not get through Fantasia as a child (too much bad music in my young eyes - really bad music - lol). I will try again, but don't hold out hope for me in this regard because I am still not partial to instrumental music unless it involves Jimmy Page or Dave Navarro.

 

[Liar]

Walt Disney animated old world European stories that featured a lot of bad women. Even though he did not do Hansel and Gretel, it is just another example of what I am trying to linvestigate here.

So, to make this clear, your question has nothing to do with Disney really. But with them ye olde folk tales.

Yes, I agree that male antagonists were used is alot of those other stories, but I was thinking of the classics, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Cinderella. The Brothers Grimm collected these tales and Disney used them. My mother read these stories to me from books before some of them were ever animated

Same reason there were witch hunts, I suppose. Or possibly one of the reasons for them.

No not because of the Grimms, they merely wrote stuff down. These were tales that had been around, in one way or another, for centuries. And the witch myth in them plays well into the dark ages' paranoia surrounding anything female.

 

[Liar]

For example, the original story of Little Red Riding Hood is a rape tale and rather a nasty one, so I've read in scholarly reviews.

I've read what's supposed to be a more "true" version, as it was told back in the days. It would definitely not be allowed on Lit.

 

[AllardChardon]

My mother read to me from a very old illustrated Charles Perrault. I have it still, packed away. I loved looking at the pictures and hearing the tales. 1001 Arabian Nights as well. And I love the classical piece by Rimsky-Korsokof that tells the story of Scherezad.

But back to evil queens and the lot of them. How did the women end up being the most menacing back then? How can a woman be scarier than a man when you add in that he has brute force on his side. If sorcery is involved then that equals the playing field a bit.

Nice women seemed to be the underdog in most of these tales, as well. One of my favorites is Snow White and Rose Red about two sisters that encounter a fairy and recieved gifts that matched their personalities. The good one spoke and precious jewels and beautiful flowers flowed from her lips. When the bad one spoke, she spit out lizards, frogs and snakes with worthless rocks. A good moral to this one and my daughter had to listen to me say, "Lizards, frogs and snakes is all I hear", more than once in her upbringing.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I've read what's supposed to be a more "true" version, as it was told back in the days. It would definitely not be allowed on Lit.

Really? I've only heard about it. Where did you encounter the "original"?

 

[Liar]

Really? I've only heard about it. Where did you encounter the "original"?

Local literary mag. I can't vouch for the truthiness of it, but they said their version was adapted from an old French folk song based on the story. Which is why it was better "preserved" than the old tale itself. It's hard to "clean up" a rhyming couplet ballad or distort it over time, I suppose.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Local literary mag. I can't vouch for the truthiness of it, but they said their version was adapted from an old French folk song based on the story. Which is why it was better "preserved" than the old tale itself. It's hard to "clean up" a rhyming couplet ballad or distort it over time, I suppose.

Hence probably in Swedish? That figures. Odd, though, I always thought of the story as being German, rather than French. Could be Alsation, I suppose.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is one reason -- out of so many-- why I am a feminist.
The messages in these stories are;

Powerful women are evil. Powerful women can only become so via supernatural means.

Powerless women are lovely and desirable.

Women should not trust each other; Women treat other women with more cruelty than men treat women. Women will not share their power or knowledge with younger women, will not mentor unless their own bloodline is involved.

Women must be saved from themselves by men.

 

[3113]

But back to evil queens and the lot of them. How did the women end up being the most menacing back then?

Okay. Lesson in fairytales. Fairytales were usually created by poor people--with some obvious exceptions, but even so, those stories relate back to these common fairy tales and their usual tropes--and they featured elements that poor people liked in their stories. Royalty was usually bad or bland, no matter the sex. Don't trust the establishment. Wishfulfillment (i.e. happy endings) always includes the hero/heroine giving up the hard work and living a life of luxury in power and in a palace, usually through marriage. Poor people are the clever ones who figure things out, and the aristocrats don't figure out the riddle and lose their heads.

Now, given this, let's take a look at life among the common folk at the time when fairytales were told and took form, up till they were written down and read by a growing, literate middle class with middle class values. Remember, that as oral history, these stories changed and changed a lot from storyteller to storyteller--and remember that the Brother Grimm--prime examples of a literate middle class--made their own nasty changes to the stories (they added violence to really punish the bad guys, and made the heroines far more passive--the Grimm boys didn't like uppity women. They also made almost all the mothers in the stories "step mothers" as they didn't approve of disrespecting mothers).

Now, among the common folk back in those days, there was a high likelihood of death in childbirth. Step-mothers were very common, far more common than they are now (that is, with birth mother dead, not divorced and having custody of the child). A man might marry, be widowed two or three times ,and remarry--and given that there was no birth control, if he married a widow, she might bring in her kids. So it was not uncommon for step-mothers, in reality, to favor their kids over step kids. Especially with inheritance of whatever property the family had in the balance. Inheritance laws being what they were, a new wife might well want to "accidently" kill off the first born by starving or working them to death, and, thus, leave her kids with the inheritance. Remember, she didn't usually inherit. Her kids did.

And given that dad did work and moms did take care of the kids, well, it's a lot easier and more believable to your audience to have a wicked mom there at home making life miserable for Cinderella than a wicked dad. Brothers, as well, are going to be off working, so evil sisters are all that's left. When you begin to think of it this way, it becomes a no-brainer as to why Cinderella is slaving for her wicked step-mother rather than a wicked step-father, and why Snow White's beauty is a challenge to her Wicked Witch-Queen step-mom but not to a Wicked Wizard step-dad--why would a Wizard care if Snow White was the fairest in the land?

If you view the times when these stories were created, even without the Grimm brother biases, they actually make a lot of sense. I think the real question you should be asking yourself, however, is why the evil women of these stories made you distrust women, rather than the good women--Cinderella, Snow White, the Fairy Godmother--made you trust them.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Okay. Lesson in fairytales. Fairytales were usually created by poor people--with some obvious exceptions, but even so, those stories relate back to these common fairy tales and their usual tropes--and they featured elements that poor people liked in their stories. Royalty was usually bad or bland, no matter the sex. Don't trust the establishment. Wishfulfillment (i.e. happy endings) always includes the hero/heroine giving up the hard work and living a life of luxury in power and in a palace, usually through marriage. Poor people are the clever ones who figure things out, and the aristocrats don't figure out the riddle and lose their heads.

Now, given this, let's take a look at life among the common folk at the time when fairytales were told and took form, up till they were written down and read by a growing, literate middle class with middle class values. Remember, that as oral history, these stories changed and changed a lot from storyteller to storyteller--and remember that the Brother Grimm--prime examples of a literate middle class--made their own nasty changes to the stories (they added violence to really punish the bad guys, and made the heroines far more passive--the Grimm boys didn't like uppity women. They also made almost all the mothers in the stories "step mothers" as they didn't approve of disrespecting mothers).

Now, among the common folk back in those days, there was a high likelihood of death in childbirth. Step-mothers were very common, far more common than they are now (that is, with birth mother dead, not divorced and having custody of the child). A man might marry, be widowed two or three times ,and remarry--and given that there was no birth control, if he married a widow, she might bring in her kids. So it was not uncommon for step-mothers, in reality, to favor their kids over step kids. Especially with inheritance of whatever property the family had in the balance. Inheritance laws being what they were, a new wife might well want to "accidently" kill off the first born by starving or working them to death, and, thus, leave her kids with the inheritance. Remember, she didn't usually inherit. Her kids did.

And given that dad did work and moms did take care of the kids, well, it's a lot easier and more believable to your audience to have a wicked mom there at home making life miserable for Cinderella than a wicked dad. Brothers, as well, are going to be off working, so evil sisters are all that's left. When you begin to think of it this way, it becomes a no-brainer as to why Cinderella is slaving for her wicked step-mother rather than a wicked step-father, and why Snow White's beauty is a challenge to her Wicked Witch-Queen step-mom but not to a Wicked Wizard step-dad--why would a Wizard care if Snow White was the fairest in the land?

If you view the times when these stories were created, even without the Grimm brother biases, they actually make a lot of sense. I think the real question you should be asking yourself, however, is why the evil women of these stories made you distrust women, rather than the good women--Cinderella, Snow White, the Fairy Godmother--made you trust them.

I was going to go get something useful done but this might just make me put my feet up, fold my hand across my belt buckle and watch the discussion develop. Carry on, ladies, I'm fascinated. And no, there is no sarcasm intended, just for the record.

 

[AllardChardon]

3113,

Thank you very much for that insight into fairy tales and the times of their creation. I love history. Everything you said makes sense and put that way is rather a no-brainer. I knew someone on this lovely site would know the answer to my query and you are the one.

As to your last very good question. That is easy. I saw myself as the leader of the good girls who would have to do battle with these mean women to help protect the weaker females. Strength was never a problem for me, physically or emotionally, when my mind is made up. I have often thought I was more male than female, but my body does NOT reflect that side of me.

Allard

 

[Liar]

Hence probably in Swedish? That figures. Odd, though, I always thought of the story as being German, rather than French. Could be Alsation, I suppose.

From what I understand, there were a bunch of tales that popped up in different places with local twist. People travelled back then too, yannow. The french version might have originated somewhere Germanic, or they could both have an even earlier, for instance Slavic tale as it's root.

 

[only_more_so]

If you view the times when these stories were created, even without the Grimm brother biases, they actually make a lot of sense. I think the real question you should be asking yourself, however, is why the evil women of these stories made you distrust women, rather than the good women--Cinderella, Snow White, the Fairy Godmother--made you trust them.

My thoughts exactly! I was halfway through writing something about how the protagonists in all of those stories were female as well. The male characters in the story are so bland they might as well be the same prince, who even remembers their names?

 

[glynndah]

My thoughts exactly! I was halfway through writing something about how the protagonists in all of those stories were female as well. The male characters in the story are so bland they might as well be the same prince, who even remembers their names?

Charming, of course. Every single time.

The helpless females had names, Snow White, Rose Red, Rapunzel, etc., but I don't remember many hapless heroes' names. Weren't they all Jack -- Jack the Giant Killer, Jack and the Beanstalk; or known by their occupation, the tailor, the shoemaker, the fisherman?

 

[AllardChardon]

Come on, ladies. Prince Phillip in Sleeping Beauty was hot for a little girl in a cool theatre.

But let's get down and dirty. Who was the best prince or stable boy or whatever in any cartoon or motion picture? I must review them in my mind before voting and I guess that list would include Peter Pan and Robin Hood. I want to say any role Errol Flynn played including Robin Hood but that would be showing my age, again!!

 

[emap]

The last part actually has a reason as well. Even the king was away alot, either on hunts or overseeing wars and whatnot. It fell to the mother to teach the kids, share stories and keep them entertained. So for rather obvious reasons, the men are not much more than the nice guy who happens by to help like in Little Red Riding Hood or the handsome prince in the princess stories.

The stories paralleled life of the times as has already been said. A farmer is always away for the day, taking a brief break for a sandwich at lunch. A barreller is busy all day everyday making barrels, so on so forth. The men are always away doing men's work, wives and daughters are stuck in the house mending, cooking and cleaning. If you have ever spent time doing that you know it's alot of boring time, why the fairy tales are the way they are, put upon women are saved by helpful animals and eventually gets taken away to be waited on hand and foot. The man saving her from hard work is not much of a part of the story beyond he brings you to the better life.

I am a firm believer in just about every single fairy tale was thought up by the women.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Charming, of course. Every single time.

The helpless females had names, Snow White, Rose Red, Rapunzel, etc., but I don't remember many hapless heroes' names. Weren't they all Jack -- Jack the Giant Killer, Jack and the Beanstalk; or known by their occupation, the tailor, the shoemaker, the fisherman?

Ah now, you're in different territory with Jack tales. Jack is Loki, he is Coyote, he is . . . Jack, the Trickster. In every tale that Jack appears, he is a rogue, he is what in Yiddish is called a Noodlehead. He steals, he murders, he cheats, he lies and he always wins against the powerful. Just because the most familiar tale to us is Jack and the Beanstalk doesn't mean that there aren't a hundred more just like it. There are. Jack is not the faceless hero. You may be amused by his pranks but you wouldn't want him living next door.