Why the State should own natural resources.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SELENA

I compared myself to the FBI Serial Killer Trait List. I score at about the 90th percentile, but I like animals, have no criminal history, and generally think people arent worth the trouble of killing (I'd have to like people a lot more to want to kill them). But it is fun to poke their eyes with sticks.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Got a garden? = Manure is great fertilizer!

Yep, sure is!

 

[xssve]

That's what I get for not using smilies. I'm not sure what your point is xss. (or are you just fence sitting?)

I'm fence sitting: governments represent states, and these are essentially agencies and institutions comprised of individuals whom one cannot reasonably expect to represent anything other than their personal interests when you average it all out.

Thus, to speak of "government" as if it were a stable thing capable of predictable action over time other than as an aggregate of individual self interest, is a grievous cognitive error in my opinion, one is better sticking to empirical analysis of cause and effect with regard to specific cases, and the resulting policies they may suggest, than taking sides in any ideological debate which is usually a case of the deliberate introduction of syllogistic error.

In this case, R. Richard makes the assumption that all common resources are inevitably depleted, and conversely all privately held resources are conserved, a common conservative meme, whereas in reality neither can categorically guarantee sustainability, and while as a general rule, people tend to be more conservative with things they own, and are stuck with, than with things they are merely borrowing and not personally responsible for, examples abuses by either are seldom lacking.

The debate, as with all ethical problems, centers around a cost benefit analysis: i.e., are the costs and benefits distributed in a balanced manner?

If logging or mining on lands public or private for example, puts fisheries or other industries out of business, there is a cost benefit distortion at work that is very much a matter of public interest.

Another issue that has been the subject of heated debate concerns wetlands and and takings - it was argued by the sustained development camp that wetlands protect coastal regions from natural disaster, particularly as a buffer zone from hurricanes and flooding - the rapid development camp considers it an outrage that they can't drain swamps and build mini-malls, and sued for compensation.

Be interesting to see how the development camp is faring these days in LA and Texas.

The native Americans managed the hemisphere quite sustainably for centuries without the need to lay claim to every square centimeter of it, but then their cultural zeitgeist prioritized and sanctioned values other than relentless development and profit, values that are ingrained and largely unquestioned in ours.

Their government? Our government? etc.

 

[R. Richard]

What a load of bollocks, RR

Shit! You make it sound like the USA is the size of Littlehampton. Spend some years on an exposed peninsular. Watch what 'climate' does to shore lines. Don't give me bull shit about Indians and Rebels... the early settlers had a whole continent at their disposal for grazing. The deforestization of Cape Cod had fuck all to do with grazing!

Just in case you still want to argue, the New England settlers transported sheep, not cattle. Cattle didn't arrive in Cape Cod until the latter 18C (Texas Long Horns - a derivative of a Spanish cattle breed) Cape Cod has been much the same for 9000 years.

Neonlyte, I lived on Cape Cod? Did you?

I never said a word about cattle, or sheep for that matter. However, I do know about Texas longhorns. From Wiki, "The first cattle to set foot in North America and the only breed of cattle to evolve without human management, the Texas Longhorn can thrive in country where no other breed can live; subsist on weeds, cactus and brush; range days away from water; and stay fit and fertile whether it’s living in the scorching, parasite-infested tropics or in the arid, subzero winters of Montana."

By the way, sheep are a much worse problem as far as overgrazing foes, as they nibble down to the roots of grass and kill it if they overgraze. Leaving a desert behind.

 

[xssve]

XSSVE

But the horse is out of the barn in the case of America....except for resources on Federal lands, navigable waterways, and the continental shelf.

When the Federal Government controls resources it means that Dick Cheney and Halliburton get to cherry pick the resources they want for little or no cost to them. Everyone else gets to eat shit...until Halliburton finds a use for shit.

Under this administration, that is an accurate statement - George H. was very much in the pockets of the mining industry, Peter Munk specifically, for whom I believe he is still working.

I worked on superfund (taxpayer) cleanup at the Summitville mine - the Alamosa river, which feeds downstream reservoirs and agriculture, as well as being the focus of the local quality waters tourist economy was rendered essentially sterile from cyanide and heavy metals runoff - not even moss grows for a yard or two on either side of it.

 

[neonlyte]

Neonlyte, I lived on Cape Cod? Did you?

I never said a word about cattle, or sheep for that matter. However, I do know about Texas longhorns. From Wiki, "The first cattle to set foot in North America and the only breed of cattle to evolve without human management, the Texas Longhorn can thrive in country where no other breed can live; subsist on weeds, cactus and brush; range days away from water; and stay fit and fertile whether it’s living in the scorching, parasite-infested tropics or in the arid, subzero winters of Montana."

By the way, sheep are a much worse problem as far as overgrazing foes, as they nibble down to the roots of grass and kill it if they overgraze. Leaving a desert behind.

Of course not... no one has lived in as many places as you. But one doesn't have to live in New York or Paris to understand the climate or geography. Cape Cod is a celebrate geographical phenoninum, even I know about it.

Grazing: land supporting grass suitable for cattle or sheep.

Cows and sheep crop grass, goats pull grass, thereby denuding the land.

The point is, RR, Cape Cod was denuded of trees, not scrub land, not grass, not grazing. The trees re-grew, the grazing never went any where, and even then, the grazing was so poor on Cape Cod that late settlers would have used pasture elsewhere. The settlers stayed on Cape Cod for the fishing, not the grazing. The timber was felled to build boats and provide home heating, not by sheep, cows, or goats.

 

[xssve]

That's what I get for not using smilies. I'm not sure what your point is xss. (or are you just fence sitting?)

I'm mainly pointing out the irony of the right using a Malthusian argument when it's otherwise a dirty word, suitable only for mockery. The old "technology will save us" argument, usually employed itself, ironically, in course of vehemently attacking "Luddite" technological solutions (alternative energy, biointensive agriculture) with proven track records, while defending sexy new corporate profit centers with inconvenient externalities (GM, fossil and nuclear energy).

The sustainable development camp might be more immediately recognizable by the labels, "anti-growth", "anti-development", environmental "eco-terrorists", "eco-NAZI's" etc.

 

[R. Richard]

Of course not... no one has lived in as many places as you. But one doesn't have to live in New York or Paris to understand the climate or geography. Cape Cod is a celebrate geographical phenoninum, even I know about it.

Grazing: land supporting grass suitable for cattle or sheep.

Cows and sheep crop grass, goats pull grass, thereby denuding the land.

The point is, RR, Cape Cod was denuded of trees, not scrub land, not grass, not grazing. The trees re-grew, the grazing never went any where, and even then, the grazing was so poor on Cape Cod that late settlers would have used pasture elsewhere. The settlers stayed on Cape Cod for the fishing, not the grazing. The timber was felled to build boats and provide home heating, not by sheep, cows, or goats.

How wonderful that you know all about Cape Cod. I only lived at North Truro, more or less at the South end of Coastguard Beach. Ask SeaCat, he knows about the area.

If course the late settlers would have used pasture elsewhere. They would have driven their SUVs back and forth to tend to the animals.

Yes, there are 'fishermen' on Cape Cod. However, they are mostly Portugeues and they don't catch fish, for a wonder. SeaCat can tell you what they mostly catch. So could I, but you know everything already.

Those who study Cape Cod from a distance have their opinion. The locals have their opinion. As a former local, I share the local's opinion.

By the way, it will no doubt come as a shock, but even fishermen keep grazing animals, so that they might have a break from eating just seafood.

Have SeaCat tell you how they serve quahogs on the Cape. He knows and so do I. Without looking it up, you don't

 

[neonlyte]

How wonderful that you know all about Cape Cod. I only lived at North Truro, more or less at the South end of Coastguard Beach. Ask SeaCat, he knows about the area.

If course the late settlers would have used pasture elsewhere. They would have driven their SUVs back and forth to tend to the animals.

Yes, there are 'fishermen' on Cape Cod. However, they are mostly Portugeues and they don't catch fish, for a wonder. SeaCat can tell you what they mostly catch. So could I, but you know everything already.

Those who study Cape Cod from a distance have their opinion. The locals have their opinion. As a former local, I share the local's opinion.

By the way, it will no doubt come as a shock, but even fishermen keep grazing animals, so that they might have a break from eating just seafood.

Have SeaCat tell you how they serve quahogs on the Cape. He knows and so do I. Without looking it up, you don't

Hey... now we are humming. Portuguese fishermen. You mean the guys who catch whales with rowing boats, or the guys who sailed 3,000 leagues to plunder the Grand Banks?

Near to where I live are the graveyards of the Grand Banks fishing fleets. The Portuguese, then the Americans and other nations, stripped the Grand Banks bare of Cod. It is not a proud boast except for the effort involved. In Alcochete, a dozen kilometres from me, lie the salt beds that fuelled the Grand Banks fishing fleets. Sundried salt carried in the holds of 'faluas' a 30 metre sailng barge, set sail for the Grand Banks through the 16th - 19th Centuries. Stories here tell of fish as thick as a thigh almost leaping into the boats. They were gutted, split and buried in salt ready for the voyage back to Portugal. Once landed, they were layed to dry in the sun, salt cod, bacalhao, the staple diet of Portugal in the late Middle Ages. Salt Cod gave Portugal the economic power to become a colonial empire in the 16C. For a time, Portugal economically ruled the world. It has taken many a step back since then.

The fishermen of the Azores (Portuguese mid-Atlantic Islands) were until a few years ago the only people allowed to hunt whales. They hunt them from rowing boats, it is a sport, a challenge to manhood as much as a source of food and economic wealth. They took half a dozen whales each year, not enough to make any difference to stocks, but enough to preserve cultural significance in a remote island community.

Once the Grand Banks stocks collapsed, many Azores Portuguese moved to the USA, switched their fishing practice from Cod to other species, but their legacy in Cape Cod stretches beyond the English.

Portuguese Exploration along the Northeast Coast of North America
During the first quarter of the sixteenth century, Portuguese sailors were active in exploring and exploiting the cod fisheries found in the North Atlantic and along the northeast coast of North America. Possibly the first of these was the Azorean sailor João Fernandes, who was known by his rank, lavrador (i.e., small landowner or peasant). In 1499 and again during the next few years, he joined with several Bristol merchants in sailing to Greenland and possibly Labrador (which bears his name). In 1500 and 1501, Gaspar Corte-Real and his brother Miguel, members of the Portuguese royal household, sailed to Greenland, Labrador, and possibly Newfoundland, which was subsequently labeled "Terra del Rey de Portuguall" on several early maps. During the next twenty years, there is scattered evidence to suggest that Portuguese fishermen were also visiting the Grand Banks and the coastal waters of Newfoundland to exploit the cod (bacalhau) fisheries. Around 1520, a Portuguese nobleman, João Álvares Fagundes, explored the southern coast of Newfoundland and may have reached the mouth of the St. Lawrence River and the Nova Scotia coast. Four years later, Estêvão Gomes, sailing for Spain, reached Nova Scotia and sailed south along the North American coast, possibly as far as the Chesapeake Bay. Gomes, who was a native of Porto in northern Portugal, had served as a pilot for Fernão de Magalhães in 1519.

Although few detailed accounts or maps have survived from these voyages, the accomplishments were incorporated into several early sixteenth-century maps including a 1529 world map prepared for the Spanish crown by Diogo Ribeiro. Portuguese by birth, Ribeiro was responsible for revising and updating the official world map (padron real) as news of discoveries was received. Because only two copies of the Ribeiro map are extant, a tracing of the western hemisphere portion made by the nineteenth-century German historical geographer Johann Georg Kohl from the original copy in Weimar, Germany, is displayed here. Documenting the Portuguese discoveries in the North Atlantic are several prominently displayed place names -- "Tierra del Labrador," "Tierra de los Bacallaos" (actually listed as "Tierra Nueva de los Bacallaos" -- the Newfoundland of the cod fisheries -- on a 1532 map), and "Tierra de Estevan Gomez." - source Library of Congress

 

[Guest]

And meanwhile, the thread starter has not returned.

Hmmm.

 

[xssve]

Just because he isn't amicus doesn't mean he's not a troll.

 

[gauchecritic]

Just because he isn't amicus doesn't mean he's not a troll.

well the MiAmico issue hasn't been resolved yet. I suspect that the OP hasn't returned because MiAmico forgot his password to one or both.

 

[Magistermilitum]

I'm back. And no, I'm not Mr. Right-Wing Egotistical Anarcho-Capitalist. Far from it.

 

[Magistermilitum]

No doubt, Herr Amicus would call me a "statist".

 

[rgraham666]

Feh, who gives a fuck?

The difference between you and ami are like the differences between a water moccasin and a coral snake.

Bitten by either, you're fucked.

 

[neonlyte]

well the MiAmico issue hasn't been resolved yet. I suspect that the OP hasn't returned because MiAmico forgot his password to one or both.

His password is John Doe

 

[rgraham666]

I'd just run through the character names from Atlas Shrugged.

 

[DesertPirate]

And meanwhile, the thread starter has not returned.

Hmmm.

Probably went for another Coke enema.
Explains his ideas huh

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm back. And no, I'm not Mr. Right-Wing Egotistical Anarcho-Capitalist. Far from it.

Dude, you've got a multi-page thread, with some genuine thoughtful content. And that's the only comment you wanted to respond to?

Pfft.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Dude, you've got a multi-page thread, with some genuine thoughtful content. And that's the only comment you wanted to respond to?

Pfft.

Maybe he IS amicus, then.

Makes perfect sense. He's more offended by that comment than anyone else. Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

Speaking of the Bard, what's with his sig? I hate lawyers, too, but annihilation seems a bit tough even for me.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Probably went for another Coke enema.
Explains his ideas huh

Or he's ami.

Or he is an Ossie, a former East German. There are suggestions of it, particularly, the comment about the East Berlin (I thought that Berlin was one, now) dating scene. I think that I can see now why they were called the Red Prussians. He's certainly reinforcing all of the negative stereotypes, monocle, spiked helmets, clicked heels, and all.

 

[Guest]

Dude, you've got a multi-page thread, with some genuine thoughtful content. And that's the only comment you wanted to respond to?

Pfft.

Agreed.

No real substance here.

But they do seem to have prior experience with the AH.

How else would they know ami's proclivities? (Or even who he is, for that matter?)

So it's an alt.

I can't stand sneaky alts. They're cowardly.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Anyway, the obvious flaw with his idea is the Roman precedent. The Romans contracted out publicly-owned resources to private companies, who made corrupt deals and the only beneficiaries were cronies and nepotistic governors. The Senate and People of Rome certainly didn't benefit.

As for gay marriage, what's with the homophobia? Sounds like ami, that part. Though I'm not sure if he is ami.

And the militant atheism is a bit inconsistent with the homophobic bias. Unless you're ami, or a revanchist Ossie with strong Hegelian leanings.

The penalty he proposed for deadbeats is tempting, though it might backfire. Sexually frustrated men and women are a nuisance to society, if you ask me.

As for disenfranchisement, this is total heresy to any true Jeffersonian. If anything, we must encourage the education of the electorate and then encourage them to vote according to their informed consciences. That includes the politically nonchalant types like soccer moms, adolescents, and the urban poor. Mind you, I would favor political education that leans in a more Libertarian direction, but the answer is certainly not to keep them from voting. That's anathema to any but an elitist.

Like Rob said, your ideas are different from ami's only the same way one snake's venom is from another's.

Now, I do think that we should allow the Electoral College to become the kind of deliberative body the Framers intended, choosing Presidents and Vice Presidents on the basis of merit rather than popularity. I prefer electing a slate of unpledged electors, but that's just my opinion. Or, even better, letting them be chosen by lottery.