Why No PUBLIC Investigation?

[REDWAVE]

An excellent article from the Grey Lady, about how the circumstances of Sept. 11 remain strangely unexamined: "One year later, the public knows less about the circumstances of 2,801 deaths at the foot of Manhattan in broad daylight than people in 1912 knew within weeks about the Titanic which sank in the middle of an ocean in the dead of night." The link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/11/nyregion/11CRIT.html

Why has there still been no PUBLIC investigation, a year later? . . . Just as Hitler had his Reichstag fire, Bush had his World Trade Center attacks.

 

[KillerMuffin]

So you think Bush knew exactly what would happen beforehand and allowed it to happen?

 

[peachykeen]

saw that article in there but haven't gotten to it yet. gonna hafta get back to you.

 

[REDWAVE]

KM

I'm just saying it's very strange, and totally unprecedented, for there to be no prompt, public investigation of a disaster of this magnitude. I think that shows right there Bush has a lot to hide.

But we won't really know unless a full and genuine investigation is held, will we?

 

[MissTaken]

Of course, he does, KM.



Nonetheless, I am not registering with NY Times, but will offer this after watching too much television today.....



There is only so much one can do with the information Bush had.

Something will happen, somewhere in the US involving suicide airline pilots really isn't a lot to go on.

 

[REDWAVE]

It's an interesting article, peachykeen.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Let's see...

We know how many men were involved in the hijackings. We know their names, how they got into the country, who fucked up and let them in, what regulations were ignored or were fucked up and let them in, where they got their training both as terrorists and pilots, who they belonged to, what their motive was, how they did it, why they did it, who they did it for, and who financed it.

We know exactly how the hijackings took place and what happened from the moment they began their attacks.

We know that there were warnings about this as far back as the beginning of the second term of the Clinton Administration, who knew about it, how this information was processed, what information they lacked in order to actually prevent this from happening, and where people, in general, failed.

You can learn a lot by knowing where to look. What more do you want to know? The color of their underpants? That's never going to known unless someone's girlfriend gets dug up.

It's not that difficult. You going to camp out by Area 51 and look for aliens? They keep them in the Pentagon now, you know.

 

[Spinaroonie]

"We must never question the events of September 11th"

-George W. Bush

 

[Guru]

 

[REDWAVE]

No laughing matter

You can try to make light of it if you wish, KM, but this is no joke. There is a lot we don't know about what happened on 9/11. Why were repeated warnings from foreign governments ignored? Why weren't jets scrambled promptly? Why did Bush spend most of that day cowering in bunkers? What happened to the black boxes in the planes? Why were a whole bunch of Saudi nationals flown out of the country by the Bushies right afterward? Why was the Office of Emergency Management located in a terrorist target? Why did many people die needlessly because the NYPD & NYFD brass had their heads up their ass & didn't coordinate with each other worth a damn?

And on and on and on . . .

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

The "Investigation" the Times alludes to has to do with building codes and communication protocols, and you're alluding to a mass government conspiracy and assertions of terrorist collusion on a Federal level. They're not the same thing, and you're pretending, hoping, and implying that they are.

Another example of hearing what you want to hear, leaving out the bits that don't fit your pre-conceived hypothesis, and finding all the symbols, patterns and conspiracies that you set out to find in the first place.

 

[REDWAVE]

DCL

Well, at least I know you read the article. In a way, you have a point, although it's not particularly well taken. True, this article does focus mainly on the local aspects of this, but it also mentions the national aspects. I find it very revealing that (as the article points out) the only congressional investigations of Sept. 11 have been held in SECRET, and they have been stonewalled and hamstrung by the Bushies. Bush is acting very much like a criminal trying to hide something.

 

[floridaguy64]

Re: DCL

Well, at least I know you read the article. In a way, you have a point, although it's not particularly well taken. True, this article does focus mainly on the local aspects of this, but it also mentions the national aspects. I find it very revealing that (as the article points out) the only congressional investigations of Sept. 11 have been held in SECRET, and they have been stonewalled and hamstrung by the Bushies. Bush is acting very much like a criminal trying to hide something.

Yet it is very simple to comprehend REDWAVE........ your pagan idol CLINTON raped and tried to destroy our military, all but destroyed our intelligence community, committed adultery in the Oval Office, Lied to congress......yada yada yayati....

And you dare blame all on the man that had the guts to run for and take the office in the aftermath of the clintonian criminal we have the shame of referring to as our former president?

You are either so very missinformed, or Slick Willy has his willy burried up your ass and you like it so very much!

Either way... you haven't even a clue!

 

[HeavyStick]

it's a conspiracy against all commies living in Las Vegas

 

[christo]

Wait, wait, I'm about to agree with Redwave...have to wrap my head in aluminum foil, they're transmitting signals into my brain!

I do not think that Bush or anyone in the government had any inkling that an attack was imminent and allowed it to happen so they could use it for political gain. The idea is ludicrous. If you wanted to set up an attack, why not have the plot be discovered and stopped? Or the planes shot down? You'd get the political windfall without thousands of deaths and the destruction of hundreds of billions in property. Like so many conspiracy theories, it not only fails the plausibility test, it fails the incredible stupidity test.

But there are so many things that happened on 9/11 that we don't know the reasons WHY they happened. How did al-Qaeda pull it off? Why couldn't the FBI, CIA, and NSA figure it out? Remember, shortly after the attacks the Bush Administration promised to publish a "White Paper" detailing the evidence proving al-Qaeda was responsible for the attack and how we would go about preventing future attacks. It never appeared. There's little doubt now about who is responsible for the attacks, but a lot of doubt as to whether we're now better able to prevent such an attack.

An inquiry doesn't necessarily equal a witch hunt. It's hard to blame the Bush Administration for the attacks, when Clinton launched attacks against bin Laden after the USS Cole was bombed. And it's hard to blame Clinton when it was the appearance of US troops in Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm that pissed of bin Laden enough to start plotting attacks on US targets. And it's hard to blame Bush when it was policy during the Reagan administration to support the mujahadeen during their fight the Soviets, support that was withdrawn the Russians pulled out.

The FBI, CIA, and NSA failed to detect the plot. We now know that our security agencies had a lot of information about the hijackers, but lacked the information technology, manpower, and teamwork required to make sense of it. Why not? Beyond establishing a Department of Homeland Defense, how will those shortcomings be overcome?

Knowing after the fact what happened is useful, obviously. But knowing what went wrong in the first place is just as important. I'm not exactly confident that the FBI can conduct its own internal review to determine what errors it made. A public, bipartisan, independant review of the events leading up and in the aftermath of 9/11 should have occured and should still be considered.

The Congress appointed a special prosecutor and spent tens of millions to determine whether Clinton lied about getting a blowjob. Shouldn't there be a public inquiry about the worst attack on US soil since Pearl Harbor?

 

[Weird Harold]

The FBI, CIA, and NSA failed to detect the plot. We now know that our security agencies had a lot of information about the hijackers, but lacked the information technology, manpower, and teamwork required to make sense of it. Why not?

...Shouldn't there be a public inquiry about the worst attack on US soil since Pearl Harbor?

How do you propose to publically investigate the activities of intelligence failures without exposing the intellignece agencies practices and procedures to the public (and the terrorists)?

There is a congressional investigation into the intelligence failures in progress right now. It is quite rightly being conducted in secret to protect the sources and agents of our "secret services."

What PinkRipple wants is not an investigation, but a good old fashioned soviet style show trial of Pres. Bush with a predetermined verdict of guilty.

 

[HeavyStick]

How do you propose to publically investigate the activities of intelligence failures without exposing the intellignece agencies practices and procedures to the public (and the terrorists)?

the crazy commie believes in the perfect socialist setting where everything is shared by all, including free will and intelligence. the commie is dreaming of a society where we are "assimilated" into a collective.

 

[REDWAVE]

Judge REDWAVE

Damn straight, Weird-- appoint me as the judge!


Hey-- at least I want to give Bush a trial. He's the one who locks people up without any charges or any access to a lawyer, simply by declaring them to be "enemy combatants"!

But all seriousness aside, there should already have been a public investigation by an independent commission. The fact that there hasn't speaks volumes.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Judge REDWAVE

But all seriousness aside, there should already have been a public investigation by an independent commission.

What have you got against our intelligence agents? A public invesitgation exposes them and makes them worthless -- if not dead.

 

[Mr. Doe]

But all seriousness aside, there should already have been a public investigation by an independent commission. The fact that there hasn't speaks volumes.


Why? What are the volumes? What does it matter? Seriously, what is the difference if a study is completed and the answers are the same as what we already know? Not only that, but nothing like what happened on 9/11/01 has EVER happened before. What do you expect, what do you want? I've heard it mentioned on both TV and radio that (though I cannot link where to) that a investigation is underway. And what about the media? They so want to pin this as GW's fault that they have conducted thier own investigations, yet where has it led them? I'll tell you where, what we already know.

The gov't did not fly those planes, it did not hire the pilots and hijackers, it did not crash the planes into the pentagon and WTC and it did not crash the plane in rural PA. It was really a simple plot if you think about it, that was able to slip in undereath the radar (intelligence) and carried out. You forget that this is a FREE country.

Mr. Doe

 

[Guest]

Red-good point. Not enough information. I don't believe in a downright conspiracy though. I believe more in American arrogance and that damn 'blanket of security' we've enjoyed for many years being removed on 9/11.

'Investigate the bombing from 1993? Hell no, no need, they didn't do 'much' damage'. If that's all they're capable of, we're safe.' That's what happened.

KM, technically, he didn't use the word 'conspiracy'. I beleive there is a coverup. A coverup for their fuck ups. Guess the Gov didn't learn from "READ MY LIPS" Nixon.

DCL-You have to admit, the article has a few unanswered questions. I say we have the right to ask 'em.

FloridaGuy64-you actually brought up some good points. We cut the budget for a lot of military spending and intelligence. Again I think it was our arrogant government that decided we didn't need it.

christo-good post. I agree with you. Where is this 'White Paper' we were promised. Why do you think Bushie wants us to forget about it by finding something else to do? I think he has something he doesn't want us to know.

WH, yes there would have to be certain 'discretions' due to the nature of sensitive information. That's a given. Point is, 'nothing' is being fed to the public, which gives us the right to question that maybe 'nothing' is being done.

Heavy Stick-there are people like REDWAVE to ask questions. Changes don't occur without extremists.

 

[sch00lteacher]

Can we start ignoring him now?

If you keep feeding him he will just keep coming back for more.

 

[p_p_man]

How do you propose to publically investigate the activities of intelligence failures without exposing the intellignece agencies practices and procedures to the public (and the terrorists)?

That old chestnut?

Intelligence agencies 'practices and procedures' are already well known.

They're not a closed circle with no-one on the outside being able to get in. All agencies have been infiltrated time and time again.

So why hasn't there been an investigation as REDWAVE points out?

ppman

 

[teddybear4play]

Re: No laughing matter

You can try to make light of it if you wish, KM, but this is no joke. There is a lot we don't know about what happened on 9/11.

Actually, she's right. We know an awful lot about the attacks. The questions you ask have already been answered, perhaps not in the complete detail you're shitting yourself screaming for, but answered nonetheless. You're just itching for an investigation so you can gather much-needed "evidence" to support your lunatic theories that 9/11 was Bush's "Reichstag Fire," or at the very least, all his fault.

Why were repeated warnings from foreign governments ignored?

And our own? The Pheonix FBI memo about Arabic men taking flight lessons — ignored. The attempted search warrant for "20th hijacker" Zacharias Moussaoui? Denied. It's easy to see now, with a year of hindsight, how all the pieces fit together. But before then, it was difficult to see the big picture. Plus, not only were we under the delusion that such an act of terrorism "could never happen here," all our available intelligence pointed at an overseas attack.

The problem our intelligence agencies had/have is similar to what many other governmental services have — too big of a bureaucracy, not enough people doing the heavy lifting on the ground where shit gets decided and people live or die.

Why weren't jets scrambled promptly?

Because, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this, military escorts weren't standard operating procedure for planes that had gone off track, or even ones that had been clearly hijacked. The attitude was that it was best not to provoke hijackers.

Remember also that it was mass chaos for the nation's air traffic controllers. In the immediate aftermath of the attacks, there were other planes considered hijacked or "unaccounted for." And you expect them to relate decent intelligence to the military, who are supposed to scramble fighters from who-knows-how-far away, then make it to planes that they can't even find, in less than an hour? Not a chance.

Plus, there was always the off-chance that the planes could have been making emergency landings. The Pentagon is a stone's throw from Reagan National, and the planes bound for the Trade Center could have been attempting to land at any one of three airports — up until the final moments, that is.

Why did Bush spend most of that day cowering in bunkers?

Probably because he was acting under advice and/or that they didn't know if Air Force One could have been a potential target. And he certainly wasn't "cowering."

What happened to the black boxes in the planes?

Well, they were probably burned in a puddle of jet fuel, then destroyed by a million tons of smoldering debris. Under those conditions, nothing is truly indestructible.

Why were a whole bunch of Saudi nationals flown out of the country by the Bushies right afterward?

So far as I know, they were flown out of the U.S. at the behest and bankroll of the Saudi government, fearing they could be victims of a backlash. Bush just allowed them the airspace to leave, which, if you ask me, was mighty nice of him.

Oh, and as we're on a similar topic: FOX News reported tonight that Osama bin Laden likely escaped the Tora Bora region in mid-December, when al-Qaeda asked for a 24-hour cease-fire during Operation Anaconda and it was granted, over U.S. objections, by the Afghans. The U.S. honored the cease-fire, and when it was ended and the bombing resumed, the terrorists were gone. Geraldo Rivera was even able to walk into Pakistan from Tora Bora. So I guess you can't blame Bush for that one. Of course, you will anyway, since small things like facts hardly ever stand in the way of the vigorous pursuit of your ludicrous grandstanding agendas.

Why was the Office of Emergency Management located in a terrorist target?

Central location, most likely. The FBI and Secret Service had HQ's there, too.

Why did many people die needlessly because the NYPD & NYFD brass had their heads up their ass & didn't coordinate with each other worth a damn?

Name another time when the entire police and fire departments were called to service. They were too busy rushing into the mouth of Hell to make sure that all their gear was coordinated. Again, something so blatantly obvious a year afterwards was kinda overlooked because they were juuuuust a little bit occupied while rescuing tens of thousands of people. (And it's FDNY, for God's sake.)

Well, hell, why didn't the people in the upper floors have parachutes? That might have helped . . .

Honest questions are needed. Axe grinding such as yours is not. Which is why there hasn't been an investigation yet; they haven't been able to put together one that's impartial.

OK, mistakes were made. Are you happy now? Now take off your conspiracy-theory blinders and start using common sense.

TB4p

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: No laughing matter

The problem our intelligence agencies had/have is similar to what many other governmental services have — too big of a bureaucracy, not enough people doing the heavy lifting on the ground where shit gets decided and people live or die.

I understood that the intelligence agencies weren't allowed to exchange information by law. That would tend to cock things up quite a bit.

ppman