Why it IS all about America

[The Patriot]

Ok, first of all this might make me sound like an asshole to all non-Americans, and even some Americans, but as usual, I am speaking my mind as we have a right to do in America (which also give everyone else on here, even those not in America the free use of voice...America, God it is a great nation!).

First, yes, this happens all over the world, but never...NEVER has there been a single terrorist attack (and this was a single attack) of this magnitude and ammounting to this number of casualties.

Second, the US DOES see itself as the Big Brother of Freedom. This does not make us High and Mighty. We are just acknowledging that in this day and age, the US is almost ALWAYS the first nation to lend aide, to lend OUR CITIZENS, or to bail out a nation in need. (WWI & II, Gulf War, Etc)

Third, one attack was made on the world trade tower, in New York...UMM HELLO THAT IS IN AMERICA! Also it was a symbol of power, and the trust that OTHER NATIONS have in America.

4th 27,000 people dead....possible 50 terrorists to do it....need I say more on that subject?

5th, Pentagon...UM that has everything to do with America and only America...Attacking that was more than a slap in the face, it was a kick in the balls.

6th...It is now said that there is concrete evidence that the white house & Air Force 1 were also targets. This is a blatent assasination attempt on OUR president a man we look to to lead in a time like this, as does much of the world.

7th 12 Terroists involved have been linked to bin Laden who hates America...Three weeks ago he made a statement that not only did he hate us, but his goal in life was to kill as many Americans as he could....that is all about America.

With that aside, I am going to go on another rant. I am sick and tired of the government of this nation worying more about the lives of citizens in other countries than they are about our citezens. People say they don't want topunish the innocent. But that is war, and this WAS an act of war. Pearl Harbor is the only thing comparable...and at least that was on military forces, this was an attack on normal people. Retaliation must me harsh, even if it is to declare war on a country harboring bin Laden. There has been a 5 million dollar reward on his head for many years now, and he walks among people of Sudain, Palestin, Lebenon, and Afghanistain as a celebrity. If that is not openly supporting him, I do not know what is. But hey, maybe we shouldn't take a chance of killing some innocent people (who rejoice on the street after a tradgedy like this) and try to wait untill he is alone with no innocent citizen around him. And then again maybe he will claim 50,000 or 1,000,000 American lives the Next time. But hey, we didn't kill any innocent people who could care less if we die!
- The Patriot

On a interesting Side not though this may damage my credibility, NOstradamus predicted the Bombing of New York 5 times at the turn of the millenium (which was only 9 mo ago, not 1 yr and 9 mo), and said the lead of those responsible will be what he called the third AntiChrist... Thie first from France (Napolean) The Second from Germany (Hitler) and the Third from the Middle East (?????) Kinda freaky.

 

[Closet Desire]

Perspectives...

Unfortunately it is the very things you have just stated as facts about America that tend to annoy the rest of the world.

The US isn't the first or the only country to lend aid and, in fact, is way down on the list of per capita aid to those in need. Other countries, including many in the Middle East, are very active in relief efforts, particularly in places the US rarely even mentions.

Assassination of the US President and military officials. I agree that seems to have been one motive. However, Israel has been engaged in state-sponsored assassinations of Palestinian leaders for the past several weeks, using rocket attacks against automobiles to achieve this. This is in direct violation of a number of international laws that the US had a direct hand in passing. The most the US has done is to comment that they "disapprove".

I could go one, but I won't because the point is that America does have a bias in viewing world events and a serious discrepancy between self-image and one the rest of the world sees. You don't have to listen to enemies, listen to your friends. One has to ask why is the US so hated if it is doing everything "right". When you can honestly answer that then you are measuring up to the ideals that America espouses to the rest of the world.

The attack was an act of war, but as difficult as it is one must separate this attack out as the work of terrorists and not a community of Moslems or Palestinians or Arabs. Most people in the world, regardless of culture, race, or religion, are decent people who are appalled by acts such as this. The film clip of Palestinians dancing in the streets is one ecpetional image that will played over and over, but I notice that the number involved is no larger than that of Americans who stood below the WTC after the first strike and cheered and clapped as people threw themselves out of the upper floors (oh, I forget, they probably aren't showing that on CNN). I only hope they are under the rubble.

You might think I'm soft on this, but I'm not. I want to see those responsible punished in an appropriate way, with bombs if necessary. I am an American. I was living in Oklahoma City when the Murrah building was bombed and had friends injured. I'm still waiting to hear about my best friend in New York. My sympathy goes out to all those affected.

 

[Anubis1947]

Since you seem to be of the opinion that 'many Islamic nations' are more compassionate than the US, I respectfully invite you to go live in one of them.

I have seen few people, here or elsewhere, who advocate genocide on all Islamic people. I do support total warfare against nations that knowingly harbor known international terrorists. In case the tint on your sunglasses has unduely obscured your vision, that list would include Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Syria and Lybia. Domestic terrorism is another problem altogether; let each handle his own.

War is an exceptionally ugly business. People die. Many other people suffer. I do not support random killing of non-combatants, but am willing to accept whatever collateral damage is necessary to achieve our military objective. If that means 20,000 or 200,000 or 2,000,000 civilians, so be it.

Cowards hide behind the skirts of their women and the schoolbooks of their children. Since the death of their women and children is of little concern to them. I won't worry about it, either.

 

[p_p_man]

It is probably far too soon after the attack...

to start discussing the whys and wherefores of why it happened. But as this thread is here I will just pass on what has become a main discussion point this side of the Atlantic.

First of all we have heard Bush saying that the reason for the terrorist attack is because America is the leader of Democracy and the Free World. This appears to be in direct conflict with what is becoming clear from America's friends all over the world (and I include the Middle East in this group). America must ask itself the difficult question as to why it is hated throughout the Arab and Muslim world. The answer seems to be gaining hold that she should re-assess the way she carries out her foreign policy with regards to all countries but in particular with Israel.

Whilst America, almost automatically, supports that country, regardless of the misdeeds it has committed, she has been building up a strong feeling of resentment against herself. By ignoring the plight of the Palestians, whilst continuing to arm and support Israel she alienates other Arab nations but more importantly gives the opportunity for the fundamentalists to attract idealistic, fanatical young people to their cause.

With the result of what we all witnessed on Tuesday.

America has many friends throughout the Middle East. But they cannot help but feel some unease at the treatment of the Palestinians, exactly as they can't help feeling that, although they would like to see the end of Saddam Hussein, the constant bombing of Iraq is causing tremendous hardship to the general population.

All Arab moderates and Muslims worldwide would like to see the end of fundamentalism but whilst there is a reason for its existence, fuelled by America's foreign policy, then it will continue as it is.

The cry is not for America to change its policy, just change the way its carried out.

I still think this is too early to discuss this matter but I felt a need to reply to The Patriots post. No doubt we shall all be airing our own views very shortly now...

 

[A_Jacks]

Would you have us sell out Israel as you and Chaimberlain sold out the Czecks?

They hate us because of envy which denies them the entrance into the paradise that they think they are matyring themselves for. As for the Palestinians, they have never resposibly or reasonably assessed thier situation. Just like your friends the Irish. When you solve that problem, then talk to us about those who tried to assasinate our leader and attack our greatest symbols and killed probably tens of thousands of our civilians.

 

[Closet Desire]

Extremists...

...of any culture are ugly.

How does reconciling issues with Islamic nations constitute "selling out" Israel and, more to the point, why does Israel deserve unconditional support?

Nations that harbour or support terrorists? The US provided substantial support for the Taliban in the 70's and 80's, providing training, weapons, and logistic support. Then they were "freedom fighters" and now they are "terrorists". This is an old story repeated in the Middle East and Latin America. If you like history then this is history repeating itself.

Who said the Moslem countries were more compassionate? I said the US doesn't hold a monopoly on aid or relief. Nothing more. People, in my general experience around the world, are compassionate and giving creatures.

Go live with "them"? It probably doesn't count, but I lived in Haifa in 1979 and spent quite a bit of time various parts of the country, including Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Nazareth. Some folks might be unaware that Arabs comprise nearly half the population of Israel and, within ten years, will be the majority. I also learned that Moslems are routinely discriminated against in all aspects of the society including education, employment, medical care, and government. If this was happening in any other country it would be considered an outrage.

I had to leave when the Americans were taken hostage in Tehran.

I understand the anger and, more so, the frustration about not having a clear target for retribution. There have been plenty of postings not only this site but on all the major network message boards advocating genocide of all Moslems, tarring all with same brush so to speak. There are also a growing number of reports of Americans threatening Islamic organisations and attacking Moslem individuals, including children. I find this as repulsive as the attacks on school children in Ireland last week. It's no different and has no more justification.

I'm glad somebody mentioned the Irish because there, as in the stereotype of Islam, religion has nothing to do with. It isn't about Catholics and Protestants nor is the attack in American anything to do with Islam.

Me? I'm atheist--it seems simpler.

 

[lavender]

 

[Closet Desire]

Of course...

...that's absolutely right. And it was the British, without consult with America, who planned the attack on the Suez with Israel many decades ago. It was clumsy of me to imply only the US stood behind Israel. My real point wasn't so much about Israel, but a recognition that foreign policy toward Arab nations by the US (and probably Europe as well) does inspire animosity and a sense of injustice.

It is interesting to consider that it was not Arabs who pursued genocide of the Jews, but Europeans. Is this what's behind the us v them mentality?

What is different now is not that Europe is advocating a withdrawal of support for Israel, but a recognition of Arab people and their need for commerce, representation, etc.

I personally would be more comfortable to see all parties on a more or less equal footing and useful dialogue rather than meaningless rhetoric.

 

[Guest]

Once again

In your arrogance, even at this tragic time, you refuse to believe that anyone other than Arabs could dislike, yes even hate the U.S. for their overbearing, we're better than anyone attitude.

We may be the first to lend a hand, but we're also the first to stick our noses in where they don't belong in the name of democracy and freedom. We spend BILLIONS on aid to foreign countries, yet our children are starving and people are living on the streets in America.

We have to be BIGGER/BETTER/STRONGER than all others in order to justify the brutality WE inflict on innocents in other countries.

Maybe our own complacency about our invinicibility has finally been shattered. Maybe now, we will look after US first and worry about Americans first, before firing off aid and money to countries that have been fighting for hundreds if not thousands of years, over religious beliefs.

Grow up and accept the fact that while heinous, what happened on Tuesday should have expected and anticipated. Where was our National Defense then?

 

[lavender]

 

[Guest]

Welll

Maybe so, but not everyone feels that way in other countries.

Maybe it's time to LET the other countries feel what it would be like without our involvement.

Let them fight their battles and leave them the hell alone. It's been proven in Vietnam, Korea, Yugoslavia, etc. We go in, we try and fix things, we leave, and nothing is solved.

Like I said..concentrate on our poor, our starving, the racist supremisist groups here first.

Let us wait until we are asked for a change.

Worry about home first, that's all I say.

 

[beckbabe]

People really seem to enjoy distributing each last piece of blame.

 

[Closet Desire]

Arrogance?

I assume you're referring to me. As I was working two miles from the Murrah Building in OKC in 1995 when it was bombed, I was a first hand witness to how quickly all people of Middle Eastern descent were immediately suspect. They were detained at airports, bus stations, and pulled over by police and highway patrol. Everybody KNEW it was ME terrorism. The treatment afforded many of them, even after McVeigh was indentified, was appalling.

Meanwhile McVeigh, who was hoofing it north on I-35, was caputured ONLY because an OHP noticed he had an expired tag. Upon questioning him he noticed that McVeigh was also carrying a weapon. It was two or three days before LE made the connection. They weren't looking for a red-blooded American.

If you read my posts I think you will notice that I haven't once suggested who is responsible. On the other hand, I understand that several of the hijackers (including one identified by seat number by a doomed flight attendant) are of Middle East origin. This might lead some of us to believe it isn't domestically brewed as the Murrah bombing was. Still, it isn't my style to make accusations about who did it--or why.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Of course...

And it was the British, without consult with America, who planned the attack on the Suez with Israel many decades ago.

On a small but vital point. The British and the French sent their armed forces into Suez in 1956. It was carried out with America's compliance and to stop the Suex Canal from being nationalised by the young Nasser.

The Suez Canal was the only route other than sailing around the Cape of Good Hope at the tip of South Africa to India and the Far East.

The British and French were forced to call of their joint military action after a few days when America withdrew its support.

 

[DarkAngel]

Re: Welll

Maybe so, but not everyone feels that way in other countries.

Maybe it's time to LET the other countries feel what it would be like without our involvement.

Let them fight their battles and leave them the hell alone. It's been proven in Vietnam, Korea, Yugoslavia, etc. We go in, we try and fix things, we leave, and nothing is solved.

Like I said..concentrate on our poor, our starving, the racist supremisist groups here first.

Let us wait until we are asked for a change.

Worry about home first, that's all I say.

uhm.....

Note about Korea, United States of America still has a military base there. They are in every part of Korea's business and life. They have been ask to leave by the Goverment and the citizens and they still stay.

North & South Korea both are in the process of joining together, when they do this would make them have the second most largest army in the world next only to China.

This would also place them in the Superpower status as do to the fact the North Korea as the resources and South Korea has the technoligy to build any items of war that they may need.

Another note: Korea but a couple of Nuclear sub from Russia. When the US found this out, the Korean Goverment was ordered to dismatle them. over 2 billion was lost to this.


On other points, In Ireland.... A school with children had a bomd placed in it and that bomb killed everyone in the school.

England, Has more Terrorist attacks than the US in any given moment.


Yes, I also agree that countries should let other countries solve there own problems. But for one reason that this is not done is that:

1) The world Economic standing would fall.

2) The resulting conflict would cause more damage to the population than what the war is worth.

3) Foregin aid is mostly only given to citizens of those countries who have been ravished by war's or natural Disasters. IE:
1) The US tragic attack.. The world is giving money and supplies and man power to assist in the rebuilding and helping of those families in need.

IE 2) US asks Canada to accept all flights, as they try and defend the airspace. And make it safe once again.

IE3) Toronto and Quebec, accept wounded from NY city. Canada perpares to send 3000 nurse and doctors to NY and Wash. In assistance to the going needs...

IE4) Japan offers Finical aid to the US as well as Man power and any equipment that they need.. And it will be sent in a moments notice.. Al they have to do is ask!!!!

This is why many countries give a helping hand.. Because when they need it. Its there for them as well.






I have to say, what was done was wrong and tragic, but it is the way of are world. Every country goes through it, and every country as to deal with it.

But, what was done to the citizens was fooless and stupid. But if it was done to a military base. But we can't go about pointing fingers.

Example, The Ok bombing.. everyone point fingers at the Middle East, yet it was one of your own citizens who did it. Find the guilty and punish them.. Don't punish the innocent, for the you are no better than the Terrorists.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I haven't seen us punish anyone. Did I miss something? Have we bombed someone and no one told me? I checked, but the army post next door is still full and my bubba in 101st is still playing Star Trek on his computer. I don't think we've bombed, missiled, shot, attacked, invaded, or otherwise in last 72 hours. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I do believe we've got a full investigation on this one. We've discovered who did it, now we're discovering who paid for it, masterminded it, and harbored those that did. Terrorists are only patriots to other terrorists. That's why they're called terrorists, not soldiers.

We're not lapdogs. We're not going to allow people to attack us so callously within our own borders without retaliation. Pacifism is a utopia that will never exist as long as human beings exist. Turning the other cheek will get us slapped.

How many times has the US come to the aid of some country? How many billions of dollars of interest free, and ultimately forgiven, debt free, has the US loaned to other nations? How many times have we lent our own citizens out as military back up? How many times has a natural disaster, flooding, famine, earthquakes, hit when the US, not only the government but private citizens, come to the aid of those afflicted? Can anyone even count them?

How many times has anyone come to aid the US? We have natural disasters from tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, and drought just as often as the rest of the world. Who gave aid to us?

The very people we've given aid to, in dollars and in manpower, regularly drag us through the mud. They regularly protest anything we might do, simply because we're the ones doing it. They throw rocks at the peacekeepers that keep them from being slaughtered and given them food. They say that we had this coming.

You either stand with us or you don't. Frankly, I don't think there's a single one of us who cares about you when you don't.

 

[crystalhunting]

Re: Arrogance?

I assume you're referring to me. As I was working two miles from the Murrah Building in OKC in 1995 when it was bombed, I was a first hand witness to how quickly all people of Middle Eastern descent were immediately suspect. They were detained at airports, bus stations, and pulled over by police and highway patrol. Everybody KNEW it was ME terrorism. The treatment afforded many of them, even after McVeigh was indentified, was appalling.

Meanwhile McVeigh, who was hoofing it north on I-35, was caputured ONLY because an OHP noticed he had an expired tag. Upon questioning him he noticed that McVeigh was also carrying a weapon. It was two or three days before LE made the connection. They weren't looking for a red-blooded American.

If you read my posts I think you will notice that I haven't once suggested who is responsible. On the other hand, I understand that several of the hijackers (including one identified by seat number by a doomed flight attendant) are of Middle East origin. This might lead some of us to believe it isn't domestically brewed as the Murrah bombing was. Still, it isn't my style to make accusations about who did it--or why.

When Timothy McViegh did his nasty deed....

I was in Wal-Mart working...and the FBI came and arrested ALL the Muslims that worked there{Me included}
We were detained for 3 days...and intterogated and roughed up....then released without so much as an apology.

When the Embassies in Africa were Bombed...I was at the Majid praying....and guess what happened?...FBI again
They determined that the personal sectratary of Bin Laden went to our Mosque,but ALL of us were manhandled.I didn't know the guy.

Yesterday I was assualted when I left the Majid,my pride is hurt...but I havent had to endure the FBI just yet again.

The arab world hates the USA cause we pay lip service to Isreali atrocities...while giving them pure heck for the small things.

It is generally assumed in the Middle East that if it wasn't for oil,The americans and other europeans would eradicate all the arabs,also OUR version of Fanatics help to support Isreal via the US goverment.

After all we totally ignored Bosnian Muslims plight in what used to be Yugoslavica untill it was horribly far gone.{Bosnian Muslims are EUROPEAN MUSLIMS}

NONE deserves this tradgedy.....but I suspect it will be more common now.

And before you flame me,remember...I AM AN AMERICAN just like you.


CH

 

[Closet Desire]

No...

...we haven't done anything yet.

But the US has a frightening history of going off a bit half cocked and waging reprisals only to find out we were wrong. I still have a photograph of a tiny baby being pulled from the bombed out remains of a house in a large residential area following "surgical strikes" in Tripoli. It brought home something that I know Killermuffin already knew--there is no such thing as surgical strikes when you fly planes and drop bombs. Innocent people get hurt and all the technology in the world doesn't prevent it.

Cruise missiles fired into Afganistan with the same intent also had a less than effective impact and apparently caused more damage to the innocent people--that is those who could care less about the Taliban--than to bin Laden's followers.

It isn't just the fear of getting it wrong but also the long term implications of not considering all the options. I grew up and served during the cold war and during that time we met the Soviets face-to-face in efforts to "defeat" them. What finally defeated the Soviets was economics. If there is anything more powerful than the US military it is its economic power.

What I hear and see here in Europe is a strong resolve from Europe, Russia, and virtually all Middle Eastern nations to tackle international terrorism. It was America that was targeted but many nationalities died in the attack including up to 800 Britons. It has impacted everybody, involved everybody, and will take everybody to put a stop to it.

Other countries have been just as quick to both offer and provide aid to the US, sometimes in ways her citizens are not aware. Law enforcement world wide is now at the US disposal. Intelligence communities are openly sharing information at the request of the US. Israeli search and rescue teams are probably already on the scene with valuable skills. The generosity of America's friends--and there are many--is quietly and solidly there.

This notion, however, that the US is the benevalent lender of money is a long-running urban myth. In the 80's it was foreign investment in American stocks and government bonds (ie loans to the US government which was floating in red ink) that kept a recession from becoming something much, much worse. Everyone's economic welfare is linked and money flows back and forth like water.

In all the anger and the hunger for vengeance I would just like Americans to also be aware that the rest of the world is not cheering over the attacks. The rest of the world is just as angry and, because many of these countries have long experience with terrorism, they are more empathetic than you may have ever imagined.

They are your friends in a time of need.

 

[Closet Desire]

CH

Your post wasn't there when I posted so I missed it. I'm embarrassed by what you experienced. I'm also embarrassed to see an old acquaintance who now heads an Islamic Society in OK on NBC talking about threats being made to Islamic children. It shames me.

 

[OUTSIDER]

Now is not the time to lash out, now is the time to find out who we are going to lash out "at".

British dead estimated to be between 100 and 800, when the time comes and the villains are unmasked then we will serve our enemies a cold plate of revenge.

The crime may have happened in the USA but the dead came from all over the world.

 

[Gilly Bean]

Re: Re: Welll

1) The US tragic attack.. The world is giving money and supplies and man power to assist in the rebuilding and helping of those families in need.

IE 2) US asks Canada to accept all flights, as they try and defend the airspace. And make it safe once again.

IE3) Toronto and Quebec, accept wounded from NY city. Canada perpares to send 3000 nurse and doctors to NY and Wash. In assistance to the going needs...

IE4) Japan offers Finical aid to the US as well as Man power and any equipment that they need.. And it will be sent in a moments notice.. Al they have to do is ask!!!!

This is why many countries give a helping hand.. Because when they need it. Its there for them as well.



Yes, they are helping. Everyone is. It is wonderful to finally see it on our end.

 

[The Patriot]

In Response to Everyone....

In response to everyone who is saying tuff like Isreal has been making attemps on palistinians, and Terrorism is all around the world, and this is the way of the world....

Yes, terrorism is all around the world, but this was not only an act of terroism, it was an act of war and it was an act of war on the US. Therefore the U.S. is going to handle it. And we are going to handle this like it is something personal, because it is something personal. It IS something personal.

Yes other nations leaders are taken out by forein nations, but that doesn't mean it is right. If the those nations feel the need to retaliate, so be it. We for damn sure will!

Is it the way of the wolrd? If it is does that make it right, or inpunishable? No, it was wrong and we will make punishments.

I called the terrorists Islamic only because those Identified by the government to be a party to this were confirmed to be Islamic. You cannot turn away fron the truth.

I never said any of the Middle Eastern nations were cushy. I am just saying that the US will deal with our shit the way we damn fell like it because it is our shit to deal with. You deal with yours.
--- The Patriot

 

[A_Jacks]

It is the time to lash out

I agree with Wm F. Buckley. Get bin baby. If wasn't him, just as well. Just go get them one after another until you get the guilty party.

 

[Closet Desire]

Patriot...

...what religion was Timothy McVeigh? ...Nichols? What difference does it make?

 

[Thumper]

Please...

A little clarification.

It has been sateted that these events were an "act of war"(jingoism). By what nation state?

Can a single person or small(relative to a nation-state entity) group of people actually make/declare war? Those who perpetrated this do not have the capacity to make war. They can perform isolated acts such as we have witnessed just as any of us could have.

It was a criminal act of mass murder. To call it an act of war lends too much credibility to these sociopaths. To suggest it is war is to call them soldiers....they don't deserve the title.

I think the US is afraid to come down on Israel because of the Holocaust. Don't ask me why but they seem to think the atroocities suffered at the hands of the Nazi's gives them a sort of "Get out of Jail Free" card. If they are treating the Palestinians so fairly then why are they still having problems with them? It has been 52 years since the establishment of Israel. Most of the dissidents and terrorists are much younger.

If I had a friend that was engaging in self destructive behaviour I would feel it is my duty to tell him about it and try to help him overcome it. Being a friend and ally doesn't mean we can't criticize them.

On the terrorists:

If they don't care about women and children why should we?

Because we are better than they are.