Why even bother?

[Varian P]

Occasionally (once every five years or so) I lapse into this confused belief that there's a point to discussing things with people. Ethics, politics, what-have-you.

And then I snap out of it.

Sure, it can be fun preaching to the choir, getting an "Amen, brother" here and there, and getting to pick our opponents' arguments apart piece by piece or just call those who hold different beliefs evil idiots, depending on our M.O. And, OK, it's always impressive to watch one of my erudite. eloquent fellow-AH-ers express something with more grace and wit than I ever could. But is anything else gained?

Does anyone think they're going to change anyone's mind? Teach anyone anything?

Is anyone actually open to hearing an opposing point of view, considering it, and actually (gasp!) seeing things differently?

Or are all our discussions just a lot of mental masturbation?

 

[starrkers]

From what I've seen here, there's not much point, unless you like ruffling feathers.

 

[TE999]

<snip>are all our discussions just a lot of mental masturbation?

You could go blind.

Seriously, if certain persons around here could indulge in intelligible discourse instead of personal assaults, snarky ripostes, condecending replies and generally trying to be the smartest person on the thread; it would be more enjoyable to discuss things.

I mentioned no names, but if the foo shits, wear it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

VARIAN P

I stopped being a Christian after a persuasive presentation. And I ceased to oppose abortions after a good presentation of the facts.

But most people are inept at expressing themselves, and they come across as shitwits.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Dear STARRKERS

Jesus already proved that you can get chastised and crucified for being nice to people.

 

[starrkers]

Dear STARRKERS

Jesus already proved that you can get chastised and crucified for being nice to people.

Good god almighty, JBJ, don't brand me with a "nice" label, please!

 

[emap]

Wait what's wong with being nice? I'm mostly nice until you give me a reason to not be or I feel like being mean. Usually I just felt like being mean already and somebody was being stupid but whoever said I was normal anyay?

 

[TE999]

Wait what's wong with being nice? <snip>

My point exactly. You can debate a topic in a civilized manner with courtesy towards other participants who don't share your views...or...you can be an insufferable boor and mock and beat others over the head with your 'superior knowledge'.

 

[rgraham666]

If you stop talking about things you stop learning about them. Also I don't expect to change anybody's mind but I enjoy expressing my own viewpoint.

Being nice is it's own reward. And curse.

 

[impressive]

Most minds are changed slowly. Your one, frustrating conversation (or thread) might only be the piece of gravel thrown into the windshield -- making that chip that starts the hairline crack a few months from now, and so on.



And, like Rob said, when we stop trying, we stop learning -- and when we stop learning, we die.

 

[Guest]

Does anyone think they're going to change anyone's mind? Teach anyone anything?

Is anyone actually open to hearing an opposing point of view, considering it, and actually (gasp!) seeing things differently?

Or are all our discussions just a lot of mental masturbation?

In order: maybe, occasionally, possibly, and probably... but there can be therapeutic value to ritual gestures. If you're moved to go through the entire process every five years or so, I say go for it!

 

[CDarwin]

I think every four year is 3 too many...and 8 years is ludicrous.

I would like see a vote every year. The conflicts and discussions help us Evolve.

Unfortunately extinction appears to be the ultimate fate of all species.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Oh! What I see is lotsa small minds with dum ideas, wanting respect and parity. And when they dont get it, because theyre full of shit and their beliefs suck, they pout and activate the IGNORE buttons, or scream TROLL!! like Rob does on every occasion.

What goes around, comes around.

 

[Liar]

Does anyone think they're going to change anyone's mind? Teach anyone anything?

Debate is rarely about that.

It's more often than not just a two-way social meet-and-greet. You get to present and clarify who you are in regard to issues, and you get to find out who others are.

 

[Shwenn]

It's a whetstone. That's what it is to me. It helps me strengthen my mind and it does the same for my opponent. I don't really try to change other people's minds. I want my beliefs challenged. If I don't welcome that, or seek it out, I have no real right to hold those beliefs.

In this way, I believe it is always a fair exchange and worth doing, even when both parties walk away with the same beliefs they came in with.

I don't even have a problem with getting petty and mean. I try not to start it but, if somebody gets in the mud pit, I'll happily follow them in there. I wouldn't want to be that way with somebody who would actually be hurt or offended by it. If they do it to me, I assume they can handle me doing it to them.

It is the same with my kung-fu sparring. You want to try your hand against different types of fighters but you don't want to punch a person too hard who doesn't know how to take a hit. Know what I mean?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Well, the way its suppose to work is: You take your best shot, I take mine, and we each inspect the damage to assess what needs improving or changing.

But in practice most join the loudest mob and toss insults with them.

 

[Shwenn]

Oh! What I see is lotsa small minds with dum ideas, wanting respect and parity. And when they dont get it, because theyre full of shit and their beliefs suck, they pout and activate the IGNORE buttons, or scream TROLL!! like Rob does on every occasion.

What goes around, comes around.

You see this reaction to many people? Or are they really just reacting that way to you? Do these questions bear investigation? Might we learn something from the answers?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SHWENN

Debate rarely changes minds, what it does it alert kindred believers that theyre not alone. I dont believe most people are smart enough to change their minds, and I believe this because most people adopt the orthodoxy of their mob rather than think out a belief.

 

[Shwenn]

JBJ,

Of course you ignored the question. This is what I'm trying to convey to you:

I dont believe most people are smart enough...

This is just about the only information I have managed to gleen about you in the short time I've been here.

Recognize that this is the only real discernable message in pretty much everything you write.

You are not as smart as you think you are. People are not as dumb as you think they are.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SHWENN

IRL I'm as sweet and congenial as you could want. If you tell me Obama and a herd of unicorns will save America, I wont dispute you. I dismiss you as a stupid shit and let it go. So people generally like me. I'm a good listener and smile at their bullshit. I mean, if a client claims she's having Elvis' baby, whats the point of arguing with her? If my employer bankrupts her company with stupid-shit ideas, I dont care. I take my show somewhere else while she figures out what fell on her.

But this is a gladiator arena, and if you waddle into this arena with a rubber sword I'm gonna cut your nuts off. Here I dont care what you think about me, you steal nuthin from my purse by being a shitwit.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SHWENN

I dont require your approval or validation. I already have the diplomas and test scores and testimonials. Your agreement isnt a fucking crown.

Why should I care whether you like my responses? If you have better wares toss them on the table so people can compare and decide. Otherwise youre no different than 90% of the numskulls who post here, you think screaming TROLL is a superior mousetrap to mine.

 

[emap]

Now now james, you really must get back on that medication.

In all honesty you would get listened to more if you were nicer. I always picture you as a 300+ pound hairy bald guy named Bubba Ray wearing a pink tutu and crying about your lost boyfriend so I'm not bothered by how you say things. Most people however don't picture others online like that so how you say something determines if they will actually read what you say or skip it unless you touch a nerve.

I picture everyone that way so don't get mad at me for picturing you that way.

 

[Munachi]

once as a teenager i had a discussion with a neo-nazi-kid about immigrants, and suddenly she got all quiet and said "yeah maybe you have a point there." must say, it actually scared me - i suddenly felt, like, responsible. like i must say a good follow-up thing now, to keep her thinking, so she will actually realize that what she has been thinking before was quite a bit of BS...

other than that... i guess as some said above, it's more a slow process... and also it's sometimes more for my own education (reading other people's arguments, thinking about them) and forming my own opinions, than about thinking i can change the other person's opinion...

 

[Shwenn]

SHWENN

I dont require your approval or validation. I already have the diplomas and test scores and testimonials. Your agreement isnt a fucking crown.

Why should I care whether you like my responses? If you have better wares toss them on the table so people can compare and decide. Otherwise youre no different than 90% of the numskulls who post here, you think screaming TROLL is a superior mousetrap to mine.

I don't think you are a troll. I do think you are very easy to troll.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

EMAP

But you dont REALLY know what other people are thinking. You know what YOU think, and you have some degree of confidence for what your pals say to you. But all you know for certain is what you think.

Like I told SHEMP, I put my wares on the table; I get nothing if you accept them or reject them or ignore them. What you do or dont do has no material effect on their intrinsic value, though they may have a significant affect on your life, depending on what you do.

Just a thought: People may think you only approve ideas that are packaged in lucious bodies.