Why doesn't America like criticism?

[p_p_man]

What I find difficult to comprehend is the attitude America has to all the criticism being thrown her way.

A mature country would look at it analyse it and ask itself why. Not America. No siree. She immediately regards it as a personal attack on herself, becomes hostile in nature against those who criticise her and arrogantly starts telling them that the 'war' on terrorism must be taken seriously. And George whilst I'm on the subject that particular theme is running a bit thin by now.

Today's Guardian had a very good quote which is worth passing on:

"He [Bush] wanders the continent [Europe] looking a bit like Ernest Harrowden in The Picture of Dorian Gray, whom Oscar Wilde describes as "one of those middle-aged mediocrities, who have no enemies, but are thoroughly disliked by their friends.

The source of the antagonism towards America is not difficult to divine. Not content with reneging on treaties it doesn't like, threatening countries it doesn't like and ignoring objections to policies it does like, the Bush administration wonders why the rest of the world does not seem to like it.

After September 11 commentators opined that America had lost its innocence. Well, it looks like they have finally got it back again."

In my own simplistic view I tend to lay the blame firmly at Bush's feet. He has a naivite which is astounding in a man of his age and in the position he is in.

Did you see the news shots on TV when he was taken into the Kremlin. He looked like a schoolboy who has suddenly realised that, despite what he had been taught all his life, America doesn't have the biggest, the best, the greatest etc...

He looked like a kid who had gone ga-ga.

As I've said before I've tried hard to understand him. But I can't. He is such a strange person to be the 'Leader of the Free World' that I get irritated with Americans who voted for him and foisted an extremely sub-standard politician onto an unsuspecting world.

After his buddy, buddy chat with Putsin he's now embroiled in political, anti-American protests in the rest of Europe. And his trip today (Monday) to the beaches of Normandy is not doing a lot to mend fences.

But Europeans are not stupid. We know he's going there on your Memorial Day. The visit is purely for home consumption.

We only wish he would consume on home ground.

I feel closer to America and Americans, sometimes almost sobbing, hugging close, when I see the thousands of Americans, veterans and their families, come here to visit the areas where their loved ones fell, than watching Bush cry crocodile tears because it will look good on coast-to-coast television.

Whilst you have Bush as President America is going to continue to be criticised by the rest of us.

And in reality there's only one solution...

ppman

 

[The Gimp]

Nobody likes criticism, American or otherwise.

 

[p_p_man]

Nobody likes criticism, American or otherwise.

Maybe not.

But it's how you handle that criticism what counts...

ppman

 

[SleepingWarrior]

I personally think alot of the criticism about Bush has to do with him almost being a politcal maverick. Other countries like their colleages to be just as stuffy and adherent to the way of a life long politician as they are. They don't like free thinkers, and I consider Bush just that, a free thinker although his thoughts aren't exactly what is called for all of the time.

I would rather have someone of his ilk running the show than a politician who won't use force when it is necessary. Negotiating and politically driven actions are needed but one must be willing to slap a face or pull a trigger when negotiating has failed.


As I have said before I live in Minnesota, and as most people know the Governor here is Jesse Ventura. For all of the stupid things he has said in the last 3+ years he still gets results when they are needed. Bush is just like him IMO, albeit a toned down version. Bush will get results when they are needed. And if his methods upset a few of the old rules of politics so what? If a nation that is our ally is in trouble Bush will be there for them. Would most of our allies do the same time and time again as America has done in the past, I'm not quite sure, but we will always be there for our allies. And IMO thats what counts most on the global stage that is politics.

 

[Lost Cause]

If the critique on how we're conducting ourselves is valid, I don't mind. But, if it's political sniping like a bunch of old gossiping wenches hiding behind their lace curtains, well yeah, I get offended. Europe has no fucking basis to criticize the American offensive in the world. Europe has been complacent in the face of the radical terrorists, allowing them to fester in fucking France, also where the leftist, pro-terrorist protests are.
All through history America gets sniped by our "allies" while we pull them out of the shit holes they've dug for themselves about a century now. When you get Big Ben, or the House of Lords, or the Eiffel tower taken out by some wackos you've let into your country, we'll see how you dominate an offensive worldwide.
I have found when a leader is attacked on a personal level, the critic usually has no solid facts to offer instead.
1. Bush Sr. is a WW2 veteran with combat service, GW is a veteran jet pilot, who had to eject from a disabled aircraft, he knows what sacrifices were made at Normandy.
2. I would stand in awe in the museum, at the splendor of gold carriages etc. It would not be because of arrogance, or ignorance, he is a human being.
3. He has the highest, sustained, rating of any American president at any time in our history. Despite the socialist Democrat's slandering, and impeding every step of the way because it's a voting year.

I don't mind someone saying something critical, with a viable solution. That's constructive, it's the constant blathering about non-issues like how a leader dresses/walks/talks/acts.
P.S. It's a full fuckin' moon! Aaaaarrroooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!

 

[p_p_man]

If the critique on how we're conducting ourselves is valid, I don't mind. Europe has no fucking basis to criticize the American offensive in the world. Europe has been complacent in the face of the radical terrorists, allowing them to fester in fucking France, also where the leftist, pro-terrorist protests are.

So what is not valid about the criticism? We didn't see a sign of Bush charging around on his white horse when bombs were going off all over Europe (as they still are). And before Bush the US allowed the IRA to 'fester in fucking America". Not only allowed them to fester but openly supported them with money and corrupt judicial decisions.

All through history America gets sniped by our "allies" while we pull them out of the shit holes they've dug for themselves about a century now.

Nobody likes a whinger. Again from today's Guardian, "If George Bush wishes to claim victimhood for himself or his nation he will have to stand at the back of a very long line. The horrific events of September 11 gave Americans a taste of the world's pain; it did not give them a monopoly on suffering."

I would stand in awe in the museum, at the splendor of gold carriages etc. It would not be because of arrogance, or ignorance, he is a human being.

Yes you and I both would. But Bush, as a man who should be under control at all times, could easily show his emotions in a more controlled way. Otherwise what does he do around the negotiating table? Punch the air with his fist and shout 'Yessss!' every time he wins a point.

Come to think of it I wouldn't be surprised if he does.

He has the highest, sustained, rating of any American president at any time in our history.

And the lowest in the world. If Europe has one BIG gripe, it's that we can't vote him out of office.

I don't mind someone saying something critical, with a viable solution.

Well sending him on a "How To make Friends and Influence People' course would be a good start.

ppman

 

[Lost Cause]

The "world's pain" is precisely why America has to lead again! I didn't see Europe cracking down on the wack jobs twenty years ago. Nooooo.....they have to wait until the patient is almost terminal before whining about the radical degree of treatment the doctor has to administer. American presidents have always been criticized about their demeanor in Europe. It was a shock to Europe when president Washington would not permit dignitaries to bow to him. American presidents are NOT part of that dusty old culture Europe embraces. We are the offsprings of patriots, cowboys and pioneers. We reject politicians that even hint of the old aristocratic ways that Europe seems to swill in.
However, we still remember where we came from and rush to defend our Euro-Cousins if the situation demands it. We are now in a global coalition to go after these murdering bastards, but now the "refined politicians" are whining about how we go about it. Will it take a nuclear detonation in Europe to get them off their easy chairs and join the fray? I pray not, because even though I have contempt for some of the old empires, I don't want destruction to come to innocent people that are trying to just live.
I know why Hitler wasn't stopped when he could have been, or Napoleon, or Mussolini. A "mature" Europe needs to look in the mirror to see the reason why terrorism goes so far.
Yeepeekiiiaaaa! It's a full moon, partner!

 

[Guest]

 

[Lost Cause]

It's about freedom. we're citizens, not subjects! We have checks and balances in our system with individual rights that europeans couldn't possibly understand, if they did, they'd immigrate!
We're in the 21st century, we don't have to have passports to know what sucks, and where. Just the Euro-Whining about the U.S. gives me enough information about where I don't want to spend my American dollars. Besides, I can spend a lifetime visiting my country, why lower myself and go backwards in time? You can keep it.

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

 

[Lost Cause]

Whatta you gonna do? Fly a plane into an American embassy smartass? So you must be part of the nut job Muslims, I mean, to hate people you don't know is sure twisted. You need a psych job big time. Come on over to where I live, you can vent all your hate on me. Come on mister tough nutjob! Mister baaaadddd Muslim! Mister baaaad bangladeshi! Why aren't you there you P.O.S.? You're so sad. Rest In Peace!

 

[p_p_man]

I personally think alot of the criticism about Bush has to do with him almost being a politcal maverick.

If a nation that is our ally is in trouble Bush will be there for them...but we will always be there for our allies.

Bush is criticised not because he's a maverick, but because in European eyes he comes across as so incredibly stupid.

We're not bothered with how he conducts himself at home. That's your problem.

But when his speeches, actions, walkouts, threats, trade embargos and patroning attitude are seen to be what they are, a blustering attempt by a man pretending to be president by adversly affecting his allies, we get irritated.

You say he will always be there for his allies.

We don't think he will be. He has desroyed the trust we once had in America.

And that's part of the overall anger as well...

ppman

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

 

[bluespoke]

p_p and yayati in alliance


Fucking hell p_p! You must realise you got this one wrong when you see who your ally is.

It disturbs me greatly that people on this Board see you as the voice of the UK, with you going around saying 'we in Europe and we in Britain'.

Speak for yourself, not Britain nor Europe.

Personally, while I am not a fan of Dubya, I found some of your comments in this thread quite shameful.

 

[p_p_man]

p_p and yayati in alliance


Fucking hell p_p! You must realise you got this one wrong when you see who your ally is.

It disturbs me greatly that people on this Board see you as the voice of the UK, with you going around saying 'we in Europe and we in Britain'.

Speak for yourself, not Britain nor Europe.

Personally, while I am not a fan of Dubya, I found some of your comments in this thread quite shameful.

Forget yayati. He just muscled in...

OK the 'we in...' phrase possibly gives the impression I am speaking for everyone this side of the Atlantic.

I'm not of course...

But what the phrase is meant to imply is that according to all the opinion polls, news items, radio talks and current affairs that abound about Bush and Bush's America, 'we in...' lean towards the negative rather than the positive.

Take a look yourself at some of the European newspapers.

They don't exactly jump to Bush's support...

And since his outright declaration of steel embargos for nothing more than scoring cheap homefront political points, his insistence that his 'war' on terrorism should be wholeheatedly supported or 'we in...' are somehow traitors to the cause and ungrateful bastards the negative has turned into tangible dislike.

I'm refraining from saying hatred.

 

[bluespoke]

As far as the newspapers and other media are concerned please don't forget, they are all owned by someone with an axe to grind. If you want a balanced view you have to take note of what the US media are saying too.

Averaging them all out gives a picture slightly different from what you are projecting.

I have no love of his steel embargos but I understand why it was done and I expect there are many in this country had the situation been ours, would have done exactly the same.

Rather than try to attack Bush all the time you should take a closer look at our European 'friends'. Like the Iberian country that has all but wrecked our fishing industry, like our Gallic neighbours who release terrorists at the drop of a hat, like our Germanic neighbours who won't let us buy cars on an equal footing.

Maybe some of our friends are not as friendly as you think.

As far as Dubya is concerned, I'll conceded naive and unwordly but not stupid.

 

[Rex1960]

We shouldn't just criticize...

Some things are quite understandable, as bluespoke already mentioned, some things are not.
Trying to understand a different POV, trying to understand how decisions, actions and reactions developed to a certain point might help to at least respect other opinions.

I don't want to jump into a global, geopolitical discussion.
I just smell something comparable to my very neighborhood.
It goes like...
... energy ? ok - but no Nuke Plants in my area
... waste ? ok - can you please send it overseas

I can hardly speak for other people and I don't want to claim it the opinion of the masses, but what I think is simple as this:
... terrorism ? well - can you please ask our American friends to take care.

And now there are political leaders like Bush jr. or Blair taking action. I'm tired of seeing "LEADERS" cowardly whispering at press-conferences...

Rex

 

[p_p_man]

Rather than try to attack Bush all the time you should take a closer look at our European 'friends'. Like the Iberian country that has all but wrecked our fishing industry, like our Gallic neighbours who release terrorists at the drop of a hat, like our Germanic neighbours who won't let us buy cars on an equal footing.

I attack Bush all the time because I see him as one of the most dangerous men in the world today. I don't see that of Presidents Chirac, José María Aznar López or Johannes Rau.

Disputes between member states of the European Union have a forum where they can be settled.

Disputes between The US and anyone else don't. And I'm discounting the UN here. If America can't be bothered to pay its dues it's not likely to take heed of any decisions.

And my criticism of America only became as strong as it is now since Bush took over. That must tell you a lot.

There have been reports in the UK press that rivalry between the US and European troops in Afghanistan has now gone beyond the 'friendly' level and, in some cases, is turning quite ugly.

I admit I have never known such antagonism, either private or public, against America before Bush.

If the shoe fits you point the finger.

The man is bad for your country and the rest of the world.

ppman

 

[p_p_man]

We shouldn't just criticize...

Some things are quite understandable, as bluespoke already mentioned, some things are not.
Trying to understand a different POV, trying to understand how decisions, actions and reactions developed to a certain point might help to at least respect other opinions.

I don't want to jump into a global, geopolitical discussion.
I just smell something comparable to my very neighborhood.
It goes like...
... energy ? ok - but no Nuke Plants in my area
... waste ? ok - can you please send it overseas

I can hardly speak for other people and I don't want to claim it the opinion of the masses, but what I think is simple as this:
... terrorism ? well - can you please ask our American friends to take care.

And now there are political leaders like Bush jr. or Blair taking action. I'm tired of seeing "LEADERS" cowardly whispering at press-conferences...

Rex

Yes we call that type of thinking NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard).

But OK criticicism for criticsm's sake doesn't help anything.

But look at Bush's track record since taking office and you can't say he's been exactly successful has he.

I keep hearing on this Board that the first rule of any President is to protect his citizens. Bush interprets that as 'bring out your guns and shoot any bastard that crosses your path.'

I interpret it as 'make our country economically strong, co-operative on the world stage and make constuctive suggestions'.

Bush just walks away if it doesn't suit him.

And I can't see that attitude as protecting his citizens.

It just makes more enemies.

ppman

 

[weed]

If your talking singular that's a big generalization. There are many Yanks who recognize the faults in this country.

Remember how big, multicultural and young we are as a nation and how quickly we have advanced in many areas. The very things that make us great create problems for us. So of course there's room for improvement.

And only half of us who voted chose Bush. My biggest reservation about GW was that his Yahoo countenance would hurt the US when it came to international diplomacy.

Course it was a given that he'd want some military action.

I'm not saying he's all bad. And thank goodness there are checks and balances.

America will survive Bush, and we can be proud and accept criticism.

 

[Rex1960]

I attack Bush all the time because I see him as one of the most dangerous men in the world today. I don't see that of Presidents Chirac, José María Aznar López or Johannes Rau.

In our constitution the German President has no power. The Chancelor is the one who has. But anyway. As far as I can judge Bush came out less warseeking than he was considered. He had to take action and I think even Gore had to go this road if he was on duty.

Disputes between member states of the European Union have a forum where they can be settled.
Disputes between The US and anyone else don't. And I'm discounting the UN here. If America can't be bothered to pay its dues it's not likely to take heed of any decisions.

I guess you are right on this point.
Its hard for us germans when it comes to criticize any politics as far as Israel is concerned. The numbers of resolutions of the UN security council vetoed by US has brought up a huge number of "illegal" actions by Israel. But we shouldn't blame it on a single US President but on the lack of power the UN has.

And my criticism of America only became as strong as it is now since Bush took over. That must tell you a lot.

It tells me that it is quite simple to hit on a single person who maybe failed in his former life than to discuss certain POV's on a historical, political, geostrategical base.

The man is bad for your country and the rest of the world.

Its not "our" business to judge nor to change what Bush is for his country. I guess "our" political leaders are strong enough to make sure "our" vital interests are safe.
They should have more good and constructive conversations bi- and mutilateral as it appears on Bush's european tour these days. And as long as Blair, Chirac, Putin and Schröder know how to take care of their own business all national and european interests will meet at a certain level.

For a long time we germans hide ourselves because of our "black history" and we were lucky to have the US as a sheriff when somebody had to take care of the worlds bad guys. Its about time we show our own face. But I don't think the sheriff can retire yet.

Rex

 

[Cheyenne]

But it's how you handle that criticism what counts...

Personally, I consider the source.