Why do men love war?

[lewdandlicentious]

Lou:

Thanks hon, Love you for that.


RG & Raphy:

Thanks for the comments guys.

It's nice to be able to talk about these things without someone getting upset and shouting about their views.

Personally I believe we all lie to ourselves on an almost daily basis. "What I would say to so-and-so is......" "What I would to in that situation is...."

It's what we do. We like to write ourselves up.

The truth is often different.

For me though, and I'm quite sure Raphy will concur, once the streetfight/battle situation is up, there's no more lies.

There's no time, and no space.

It's not later, it's now. Right now!

You either put up or shut up. Step up or walk away.



But here's the question. This is the big one:

Would you be prepared to die?

Would you be prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice for those that are around you?

Even if you don't actually like them??

But just because they are one of yours??

 

[raphy]

Lou:

Thanks hon, Love you for that.


RG & Raphy:

Thanks for the comments guys.

It's nice to be able to talk about these things without someone getting upset and shouting about their views.

Personally I believe we all lie to ourselves on an almost daily basis. "What I would say to so-and-so is......" "What I would to in that situation is...."

It's what we do. We like to write ourselves up.

The truth is often different.

For me though, and I'm quite sure Raphy will concur, once the streetfight/battle situation is up, there's no more lies.

There's no time, and no space.

It's not later, it's now. Right now!

You either put up or shut up. Step up or walk away.



But here's the question. This is the big one:

Would you be prepared to die?

Would you be prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice for those that are around you?

Even if you don't actually like them??

But just because they are one of yours??

And as you so rightly say, Lew - That's not a question you can ever answer until you've been there and stared at the guy coming at you with a knife or a gun or whatever. You can suppose all you like, but until you've been there, you can never truly know.

 

[rgraham666]

Raphy, the main lie I lost was the one that the quality of your work had something to do with your success. My experience up to that point proved otherwise.

I was a good computer programmer. But it seemed to me that the 'successful' ones usually couldn't code their way out of a paper bag. They looked real good though. And filled out the proper forms. And went to the proper meetings. Hell, 'proper' is what they were. I've never been 'proper' and couldn't be any more than a fish can be a bird.

I couldn't maintain the lie that I had a future in the industry.

I was also just divorcing, from the only woman I had ever had a relationship with. The marriage itself was very unhappy.

I couldn't maintain the lie that I would ever have a happy relationship with a woman.

It's hard to go on when it seems you have no future.

Actually, my no longer lying was itself a lie. So I'm much better now.

Lewd? As far as being prepared to die goes, it depends. In WWII or if the Cold War had become hot, yes. In both cases, our freedom would have been lost if I, we, hadn't fought.

If I was in the Forces of one of the participant nations that went into Iraq. No.

As Napoleon pointed out (and how I hate agreeing with Napoleon) there are some orders that should not be followed.

 

[Guest]

Just one final point, from a woman's perspective: the fighters - the soldiers, the tough guys (at least on the exterior), the ones that come out on top - are the sexy guys. To me, anyway. That's primal, base animal instinct at work. It does all come down to our genetics, our ancestry - deep down we all want the strongest, most powerful mate.

I felt the need to make another post, clearing up something I said earlier (see above). I should have elaborated more on what I meant by that, and it certainly wasn't meant to offend anyone.

In my original post, I was talking about our instincts, the coding of our genes, passed down by our primitive ancestors. I was talking about the "way of the wild". Things aren't that black and white, obviously, especially in today's society. Strength and power can come in many forms: physically, financially, type of personality.

We most certainly do not choose our "mates" now by looks and physical strength alone, but our distant ancestors probably did. Just like a lioness (or any other wild animal, for that matter) will go for the strongest, toughest mate. The lions have to fight for leadership and ownership of the pride, and, if he is weak, a stronger lion will take his place and "get the girls".

Humans have evolved and moved on from that base, primal instinct, but I foolishly only half stated something earlier.

I said it in that context because there is discussion in this thread about natural reactions, hormones, genes and so on.

I refer you back to the opening quote of my post:

"A boy doesn't have to go to war to be a hero; he can say he doesn't like pie when he sees there isn't enough to go around." - Edgar Watson Howe

To me, it takes much more than physical strength, courage and bravery to make a man (or a woman, for that matter) a hero. Selflessness, kindness and generosity are far more attractive traits, in my opinion. That's also what I meant when I told Lew he is my hero. I said it was because of who he is, not what he's done.

I hope that clears it up, and, again, apologies if I upset or offended anyone.

Lou

 

[raphy]

rg, thanks for your reply. Sorry, I think I'm still a little confused.

You originally said:

And when you're putting your life on the line, you pretty much have to lie to yourself, just to keep going.

I was wondering which lies you have to tell yourself to keep going when you're putting your life on the line?

I do now understand what you meant by the second part of your statement:

One of the main reasons I got so ill a while ago is that I ran out of lies to tell myself.

And I'm sorry that you ended up feeling that way. No one should ever be made to feel that there is no further reason to go on living.

Unless... Your two statements both referred to the same thing, re: Your illness and your fight to keep on living in that regard.

If I've misread you, I apologize in advance

 

[rgraham666]

Raphy, I'm still working on it, so if you're confused, it's because I'm still a little confused.

Anyhow, the point I was trying to make is that in both cases, the untruths we tell ourselves help us to keep going.

In combat, and this is just my second hand opinion, we don't say we are going to die, and we most especially don't tell ourselves that our death may be unnecessary.

In regular life, we like to think that our lives make a difference in some small way.

I was using my experience to illustrate. When I lost my beliefs, untrue or not, it became very hard to keep on.

Actually I'm giggling a bit now. Dealing with Truth and Lies as if they were absolutes. We make our decisions based on our experience and our knowledge of the current situation, both of which are extremely limited.

It's the same with war. The decisions made at all levels are based on limited knowledge, and the goodness or badness of it will eventually be decided by history.

Raphy, it sounds like you may be an SF fan. If so, have you ever read the story The Way of The Cross and The Dragon by George R. R. Martin? It had some very interesting thing to say about lies.

 

[My Erotic Tail]

Love WAR >?

I was a soldier and I really can't say I ever knew
anybody who LOVED WAR !!!

Action and excitment maybe !!

But for the most part I look at it like this:

Stand up for right~
The neighbor beats his wife every night...
(or son/daughter) violently...you can lay
at night and listen to the screems by
burried head in pillow of the HELL of the
house hold next to you or you can do
something about it...A tough call ...YES.

Defense~
Someone enters your home or country
violently or un wanted and you go into a
defensive mode...

Conquer~
Then there's the bully...the one that wants
it all and violently attacks and terrorizes till
they feel they have control and ownership
of what is not theirs (sounds like a theif?)

You put this on a grand scale and its just a
bigger situation...but basicly the same.

Fear~
Then there's the FEAR factor. The fear of being
taken or controlled and you build up your defenses
practice and similar to martial arts you are prepared
to defend but hope you dont have to.

And police action???? I'm not gonna touch that one..
smiles...

Those who fail to prepare...prepare to fail...

(Now I know I stepped on a toe somewhere)
and for that I apologize...BOWS HUMBLE.....

 

[raphy]

Ohh, we're cross threading a bit here... What do I mean? You'll see

Raphy, I'm still working on it, so if you're confused, it's because I'm still a little confused.

Anyhow, the point I was trying to make is that in both cases, the untruths we tell ourselves help us to keep going.

In combat, and this is just my second hand opinion, we don't say we are going to die, and we most especially don't tell ourselves that our death may be unnecessary.

Weeellll, this links into the mortality thread, of course. I think that you're right, it's true that some people, especially if they haven't faced combat before, think that they won't die. But not everyone, and not the majority, I think. It takes just one knife thrust that misses your ribs by millimeters to remind you of your own mortality, trust me. After that, you go into a combat situation with a much different attitude.

Japanese samurai were taught to go into battle expecting to die. Not wishing for it, but expecting it. They believed that it would make them fight better. After all, if you're expecting to die every time you fight, anything else that happens has got to be a bonus

(Really hardline martial arts instructors drill that into their students)

In regular life, we like to think that our lives make a difference in some small way.

Well, again, I think you're right. A lot of people think that. I can't say it's something that I personally have ever worried about. But I think that's a topic for another thread - I think too many people confuse purpose with worth. Too many people define who they are by what they do, and they define their worth in the same way. I've never doubted my own self-worth, regardless of what I'm doing, but then I've been told I have an ego the size of Texas and enough self confidence for three people.

Raphy, it sounds like you may be an SF fan. If so, have you ever read the story The Way of The Cross and The Dragon by George R. R. Martin? It had some very interesting thing to say about lies.

No, I haven't read that. I do like George R. R. Martin though. I'm patiently waiting for the fourth book in the 'A Song of Ice and Fire' fantasy series, 'A Feast For Crows'

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

"...why do men love war?" sweetnpetite

And I walked in and sat down and they gave
me a piece of paper, said, "Kid, see the psychiatrist, room 604."

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I
wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,
KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down
yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

Didn't feel too good about it.

--

Alice's Restaurant
by Arlo Guthrie

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/peacesign.jpg
note: She's not Arlo Guthrie. RF

 

[sweetnpetite]

Originally posted by sweetnpetite
Thanks for your reply. For once, I have no argument with anything you've said (although I wish it weren't so)

I'll try to make sure it won't happen again *grin*

Ooops! I meant that I wished what you said wasn't true, not that I wished I could argue with you

 

[gauchecritic]

I never thought I'd post to this thread, but I've just read through it and the first thing I'd like to say is to re-iterate something S-n-P corrected herself on; the title. It should be why do some men like war? Better yet; Why do some men not grow out of physical aggression?

The answer to this is that some men can't adapt to civilisation. (whenever I use the term men I include women, although to a lesser degree).

As an organism, society has to have three kinds of units. Thinkers, do-ers, and fodder. Everyone born into society has a role to play and is born with the potential to be any part of that organism. The organism itself has various ways and means of sorting individuals into the necessary roles. Money, education and physical ability to name three.

These three parts do not equate to class structure, although that is one of the tools used to maintain itself.

To ensure its own survival an organism has to grow and change. There are 2 kinds of change that will give it a better chance. Physical growth (more people) or mental (genetic) growth (and thereby methods of control).

Society has not yet evolved far enough, in total, nor lived long enough to be able to achieve purely genetic growth, and is, and will always be, unable to become capable of such. The reason being that it covers the planet and is therefore too diverse and unwieldy to attain this.

The single attribute, earned, stolen or won that men require to gain any foothold in a complex society is not strength. Nor is it brains. It is power.

Some men achieve power through charisma (politicians or thinkers) some achieve it through ability (engineers, sports persons or do-ers) some achieve power through muscle (fodder).

This is not to say that these stratifications are closed, but they tend to have a general rule to them. Indeed, each of these stratifications contain these parts in themselves.

By far, the largest part of this organism is the fodder and it's method of advancement in society is, on the whole, a physical one. In order to maintain this undergroup, society, as a whole, needs to entertain it, feed it and keep it.

So... Men (and women) don't actually like war, they are attuned to war, in the same way that they are attuned to walking, talking and eating. If you don't walk then eventually you can't walk. If you don't talk then eventually you can't talk. The same is true of fighting.

This talk of 'what would you do if...' is patent nonsense. Talking about something which might occur has no effect on what would occur if the situation arises. When a fight or flight situation presents itself then your body does the talking. This is what distinguishes people from animals. Talking or doing.

Which brings me to RG. Seeing your thoughts on lies brings to mind a book I read last year and which I promoted heavily in various threads and quoted from quite a lot too. It's a part of the Discworld series by Terry Pratchett. Now before you dismiss it out of hand I'll point out that it is written in concert with Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen who provide what is described as "cutting edge scientific commentary" and goes into great detail about what they term 'stories' rather than lies. I think you'll find it fascinating.

Gauche

For the record, I am about the most pacific man I know but I just love GTAIII. I am also a piece of that part of the organism I called 'fodder'

 

[lewdandlicentious]

Here endeth this thread then!

Too deep for me Gauche!

 

[neonlyte]

Gauche
Interesting post, I glanced at it earlier and read it through now in more leisure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take the implication to be that war is inevitable:
By far, the largest part of this organism is the fodder and it's method of advancement in society is, on the whole, a physical one. In order to maintain this undergroup, society, as a whole, needs to entertain it, feed it and keep it.

to maintain power (control of the fodder), as long as you win.

Would Thatcher have won the election without the Falklands War?

NL

 

[sweetnpetite]

I found the answer to my question when my boyfriend gasped in *appreciation* for the newest model sniper rifle being shown on the news.

It's the toys

Of course! Toys and gadgets. Things that go boom and bang

sad but true.

 

[sweetnpetite]

and as to "what would you do if" questions that seem to imply that war is necessary, I will quote what was spoken with disbelief a movie who's name I can't remember.

"The Evil Empire just crumbled without a single shot fired?"

Hmm. Food for thought.

We thought they were evil (turned out they were just people) We thought war was inevitable (never happened)

Could it be that our preconcieved notions about Evil, War, The World, ect, ect. were *wrong* could it be that when we now say war is inevitable, we are wrong now?

Well, this is going off track again.

Oh well.

 

[rgraham666]

Tell me about it sweet.

I still have several of the weapons I trained with when I was studying the martial arts. I still practice with them occasionally.

And I believe all our preconceived notions are wrong. With our limited perceptions and intellects, how could they not be?

If I knew everthing, I would be God, and then I certainly wouldn't be hanging around this silly planet now, would I?

Bran Tse-Mallory

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

and as to "what would you do if" questions that seem to imply that war is necessary, I will quote what was spoken with disbelief a movie who's name I can't remember.

"The Evil Empire just crumbled without a single shot fired?"

Hmm. Food for thought.

We thought they were evil (turned out they were just people) We thought war was inevitable (never happened)

Could it be that our preconcieved notions about Evil, War, The World, ect, ect. were *wrong* could it be that when we now say war is inevitable, we are wrong now?

Well, this is going off track again.

Oh well.

S & P,

War is only an option to the aggressor. On Sept. 1, 1939, with the Evil Empire of Nazi Germany invading from the west and the Evil Empire of the Soviet Union set to come in for the kill from the east, what kind of option did Poland have?

We thought they were evil (turned out they were just people) We thought war was inevitable (never happened)

If the Evil Empire in question was the old Soviet Union, and if you have any doubts on that issue, I challenge you to read, "The Gulag Archipelago."

Rumple Foreskin