Why can't Jesse Helms just up and die...

Azwed

Invading Poland
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http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/18/opinion/18KRIS.html?todaysheadlines





Women's Rights: Why Not?
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF


SLAMABAD, Pakistan — We now have a window into what President Bush and America's senators think of the world's women: Not much.

An international women's treaty banning discrimination has been ratified by 169 countries so far (without emasculating men in any of them!), yet it has languished in the United States Senate ever since President Carter sent it there for ratification in 1980. This month the Senate Foreign Relations Committee got around to holding hearings on it, but the Bush administration, after shyly supporting it at first, now is finding its courage faltering.

The support came from Colin Powell's State Department, but then John Ashcroft's Justice Department found out about the treaty — and seems to be trying to defend America from the terrifying threat of global women's rights. You'd think he might have other distractions, like fixing the F.B.I., but the Justice Department is conducting its own review of the treaty in what looks suspiciously like an effort to eviscerate it.

I wish Mr. Ashcroft could come here to Pakistan, to talk to women like Zainab Noor. Because, frankly, the treaty has almost nothing to do with American women, who already enjoy the rights the treaty supports — opportunities to run for political office, to receive an education, to choose one's own spouse, to hold jobs. Instead it has everything to do with the half of the globe where to be female is to be persecuted until, often, death.

Mrs. Noor, a pretty woman with soft eyes and a gold nose ring, grew up in the Pakistani countryside, and like her three sisters she never received a day's education. At the age of 15 she was married off by her parents, becoming the second wife of the imam of a local mosque. He beat her relentlessly.

"He would grab my hair, throw me on the floor and beat me with sticks," she recalled. Finally she ran away.

Her husband found her, tied her to the bed, wired a metal rod to a 220-volt electrical outlet and forced it into her vagina. Surgeons managed to save her life, but horrific internal burns forced them to remove her bladder, urethra, vagina and rectum. Her doctor says she will have to carry external colostomy and urine bags for the rest of her life.

At least she survived. Each year about one million girls in the third world die because of mistreatment and discrimination.

In societies where males and females have relatively equal access to food and health care, and where there is no sex-selective abortion, females live longer and there are about 104 females for every 100 males. In contrast, Pakistan has only 94 females for every 100 males, pointing to three million to seven million missing females in that country alone. Perhaps 10 percent of Pakistani girls and women die because of gender discrimination.

In most cases it is not that parents deliberately kill their daughters. Rather, people skimp on spending on females — just like Sedanshah, a man at an Afghan refugee camp I visited near here. When his wife and son were both sick, he bought medicine for the boy alone, saying of his wife, "She's always sick, so it's not worth buying medicine for her."

At Capital Hospital here in Islamabad, a nurse named Rukhsana Kausar recalled fraternal-twin babies she had treated recently. At birth, the girl twin weighed one pound one ounce more than the boy. At seven months, their position was reversed: the boy weighed one pound 13 ounces more than his sister.

Critics have complained that the treaty, in the words of Jesse Helms, was "negotiated by radical feminists with the intent of enshrining their radical anti-family agenda into international law" and is "a vehicle for imposing abortion on countries that still protect the rights of the unborn."

That's absurd. Twenty years of experience with the treaty in the great majority of countries shows that it simply helps third-world women gain their barest human rights. In Pakistan, for example, women who become pregnant after being raped are often prosecuted for adultery and sentenced to death by stoning. But this treaty has helped them escape execution.

How can we be against that? Do we really want to side with the Taliban mullahs, who, like Mr. Ashcroft, fretted that the treaty imposes sexual equality? Or do we dare side with third-world girls who die because of their gender, more than 2,000 of them today alone?
 
That is just sickening! I want to comment more, but it'll have to wait till I can think about it clearly.
 
cybergirly1989 said:
That is just sickening! I want to comment more, but it'll have to wait till I can think about it clearly.


Oh I have a list here somewhere of all the treaties we have not rattified because of Mr.(and i use that term losely) Helms. Want me to try and find it?
 
Azwed said:



Oh I have a list here somewhere of all the treaties we have not rattified because of Mr.(and i use that term losely) Helms. Want me to try and find it?


Sure. I'd be interested in reading it.
 
This amused me.
Has anyone ever seen this film?
If so any idea where I can find a copy?


Jousting with Jesse. (gay filmmaker Tom Kirkman directed 'Dear Jesse')(Interview)
Author/s: Oren Moverman
Issue: July, 1998

Are you ready for your hissy fit, Mr. Helms?

Tim Kirkman wants you to know he shares more with Jesse Helms than just a passion for homosexual men. A gay filmmaker living in New York City, Kirkman also shares a birthplace (Monroe, N.C.), a religious upbringing (Southern Baptist), and a past career (Journalism) with the grand wizard of American political homophobia. In his celluloid letter to Helms, Dear Jesse, which opens nationally this month, Kirkman explores the myth around the man with whom he has this unwanted kinship. But rather than attack the powerful "Senator No," Kirkman takes the high road. He interviews the kinds of North Carolinians who've suffered Helms's wrath - married lesbians, a white woman who adopted a biracial child with HIV - and surprisingly, they show respect for the senator even as they oppose his views. But this documentary is not a propaganda piece. Nor is it Kirkman's ego trip down memory lane. Dear Jesse is a rare cinematic diary - a gentle, personal film that is more about self-preservation and self-reliance than self-obsession.


OM: What would you like to see happen to Helms?

TK: I hope he gets defeated by the dream anti-Helmsian candidate: an African-American, colorblind, lesbian, communist, left-handed, wheel-chaired immigrant. [laughs] I really hope that doesn't offend anyone.

COPYRIGHT 1998 Brant Publication
 
Hmhh could not find the exact list that I was looking for. The list I was looking for shows all the various human rights related treaties in the past 50 years and who has rattified them. In the past 20 or so years we have ratified none of them partialy because Helms has been the Chair of the Foreign relations committie. Its not completly his fault but a lot of it is his fault. Thank god he is retiring this year.

I do have a list of the mostly universal human rights treaties and it shows how many countries have ratified them. I think I can pick out which ones the US has not ratified.


UN charter just under 200 ratifications.

Genocide convention almost 150.

Four Geneva conventions almost 200.

Racial Discrimination 150. US??? I don't think we are.

Economic, Social and Cultural Rights almost 150. US is not on it.

Civil and Political Rights almost 150 and correction we are on it.

CEDAW or discrimination agianst women about 175 and we are not on it.

Torture and other curel and inhuan treatment about 125 and we are not on it.

Rights of the child almost 200 exactly and we are not on it.



Here is a list of the text of all these treaties. Can't find a list of the ratifications for the life of me though.

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/undocs.html
 
Last edited:
Bit of a long article but a could read if this stuff interests you.



http://www.hrw.org/worldreport99/usa/

About a quarter of the way down it points out that the US is almost the only country that has not ratified the treaty on the rights of the child.

Why have we done this?? Mainly because the military still wants to be able to take kids who just graduated from HS and are still 17 in for training.
 
Thanks.

I glanced through the treaties, looks very interesting. When I get a chance I'll read more. :)
 
Azwed said:
Bit of a long article but a could read if this stuff interests you.



http://www.hrw.org/worldreport99/usa/

About a quarter of the way down it points out that the US is almost the only country that has not ratified the treaty on the rights of the child.

Why have we done this?? Mainly because the military still wants to be able to take kids who just graduated from HS and are still 17 in for training.


Wow! The first paragraph says it all.
 
Azwed said:
Bit of a long article but a could read if this stuff interests you.



http://www.hrw.org/worldreport99/usa/

About a quarter of the way down it points out that the US is almost the only country that has not ratified the treaty on the rights of the child.

Why have we done this?? Mainly because the military still wants to be able to take kids who just graduated from HS and are still 17 in for training.

"Only two countries in the world have not ratified the children’s rights convention: Somalia, which has no internationally recognized government, and the United States"

Now that just makes me feel good.:(
 
The article is one of the most self-serving pieces of crap that I've read in quite a while.

The writer uses a particularly poingnant anecdote to equate not signing the treaty to siding with the Taliban. What a bunch of shit.

Get a clue people, no treaty will ever alter a countries culture. The culture we are talking about here is the culture of Islam. And just what does the author expect to happen? If some woman in Pakistan is murdered by religious zealots, are we, the United States, supposed to invade and set up a military goverment? Or it some woman in China is forced to have an abortion under their particular pogrom of 'population control'?

The United States is on record, from the Carter administration onwards, as being in favor of "human rights". Not rights for a select group, be it gender based, tribally based, religiously, or culturally based, but for all humans.

To conclude that Sen. Helms statement is anti-woman is ludicrous in the extreme. He is entitled to his opinion on 'womens's rights' groups and their agenda. If Sen. Helms were all that anti-women, it is unlikely that he would survive the election process, unless one is to charge that the women in his home state are so repressed that they are denied the right to vote.

Further, the women's rights issues are but a small part of the problem in the countries where it is an issue. Far larger governemntal and cultural problems persist. Unless the respective governments and cultural attitudes change in these countries, you might as well go piss in the wind for all the difference it will make.

Ishmael
 
Originally posted by Ishmael

Further, the women's rights issues are but a small part of the problem in the countries where it is an issue. Far larger governemntal and cultural problems persist. Unless the respective governments and cultural attitudes change in these countries, you might as well go piss in the wind for all the difference it will make.

Ishmael [/B]


The biggest problem is that politically the United States or our allies, or for that matter thier allies, wants something from these countries where it is an issue. Namely oil.
Now with talks able to resume of putting a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, India (I'm sure I'm leaving out others) the U.S. will not interfere. How can they, the Asian markets this gas would supply need it. The jobs and resourses it would create in the countries it would run through would be huge economic relief for those areas. The biggest company involved in this project is UNOCAL a U.S. based company. Once again it becomes a issue of you scratch his back, I'll scratch your back.
 
Cybergirly and Azwed rock my world. I want to propose! Well not really but you guys are really cool.
 
cybergirly1989 said:


The biggest problem is that politically the United States or our allies, or for that matter thier allies, wants something from these countries where it is an issue. Namely oil.
Now with talks able to resume of putting a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, India (I'm sure I'm leaving out others) the U.S. will not interfere. How can they, the Asian markets this gas would supply need it. The jobs and resourses it would create in the countries it would run through would be huge economic relief for those areas. The biggest company involved in this project is UNOCAL a U.S. based company. Once again it becomes a issue of you scratch his back, I'll scratch your back.

OK, business is business. But as you pointed out, if the monies derived from this pipeline were used properly by the respective governments, there would be a commiserate increase in the standard of living in each of these countries. It has been shown time and time again, that the greater the proportion of middle class to the bulk of the population, the more democratic that people, and then the governments become.

The problem has been, and continues to be the fact that the 'leaders' of these counties rape the national treasury and salt the monies away in their own accounts in foriegn banks. In those instances where the US, or other nations, have replaced the government, the new leader has invariably done the same thing. Looking to the United Nations is of no use whatsoever. It is the largest payout of money to the cronies of third world dictators going. It is the most graft ridden institution on the planet right now.

And that is the crux of Jesse Helm's beef. It is that in the 'administration, of any such UN treaty, nothing of substance will occur and the monies allocated will do nothing more than line the pockets of those 'appointed' to oversee the funds. The UN is NOT an elected body and therefore has no accountability.

Ishmael
 
Okay, now I'm confused (not that unusual).

Go meddle in sovereign countries because you do not like the way they treat their citizens, but if you want to get the cold-blooded killers of not just our citizens, but citizens all over the world, and

how dare you meddle in the affairs of a sovereign state…
 
Okay, the US ratifies the treaty (or treaties) and what changes in the world? Absolutely nothing.


If you look at the countries that ratify such treaties, it's obvious that those are the countries already abiding by the provisions before the treaty. Treaties such as this aren't necessary when the nation is already doing the right thing.

Those nations that aren't abiding by the treaty aren't going to ratify it. Why would they?

Treaties protecting the rights of women, children, etc., sound good and make good PR, but they do nothing to impact the lives of those being mistreated. Treaties don't change cultural values, time and change from within do that.
 
morninggirl5 said:
Okay, the US ratifies the treaty (or treaties) and what changes in the world? Absolutely nothing.


If you look at the countries that ratify such treaties, it's obvious that those are the countries already abiding by the provisions before the treaty. Treaties such as this aren't necessary when the nation is already doing the right thing.


Yes, they are necessary and you want to know why? They are necessary because it shows to the rest of the world that we are united with them in denouncing these kinds of abuse. It shows that human rights are important to us and that they aren't just something we only talk about or something we only are going to care about when its in our best interest.

When the President of the most powerful country of the world signs a treaty and the legislature ratifies ha treaty that is a powerful statement. A very powerful image that is presented to the rest of the world. When that same president and country does not sign or ratify a treaty that has been ratified by 190 some countries, there are only a little over 200 in the world, that also sends a very powerful image. Think about what kind of image that sends. Think about what kind of image that sends when the treaty is about the rights of a child. Are you feeling a little disgusted for your country yet? You should be.

Of course not all the countries that have ratified those treaties follow them completely or all the time. Some countries have reservations to certain parts of some treaties because they say it goes against their culture. It is called culture relativism and most of the time it is complete bull shit and is just and excuse for certain countries, like China, to go on abusing people. The United States cited cultural relativism for the death penalty part of the torture convention. We said that was part of our culture and that we were not going to stop doing that. All of the other countries that have signed onto the treaty called bullshit on us because we always call bullshit when other countries site cultural relativism. We said fuck off we don't like you anymore and went home like the spoiled child we sometimes are.


Sometimes countries that have ratified these treaties break them. They may break them because some radical security force faction goes to far and so it was not a policy of the ruling government. They could be broken because there was a coup and a change of government and then there were purges by the new government. There are many ways and reasons the treaties could be broken after they are ratified.

That is when someone can hold up a treaty and say was done to them or their family or friends were wrong. That it was not just wrong because they say it was wrong or because basic human dignity says it was wrong or because a national law says it was wrong, a new government could change those laws, no it was because of all those other reasons plus the 182(or whatever the number happens to be) countries that have signed this treaty say it was wrong. That is a powerful statement to be able to make and wouldn't it be even more powerful when the most powerful country in the world has signed that treaty as well?




Those nations that aren't abiding by the treaty aren't going to ratify it. Why would they?

Treaties protecting the rights of women, children, etc., sound good and make good PR, but they do nothing to impact the lives of those being mistreated. Treaties don't change cultural values, time and change from within do that.


Part of the reason people are mistreated in those countries is because they don't have the institutions to protect them. They don't have an institutionalized judiciary system or police force to protect people and prosecute the people who do break the laws.

A treaty can be part of the part of the institutional process. A treaty is written down it is permanent, well at least it is supposed to be pactus sunt servanda(the treaty must be upheld), and it has the backing of many other nations who have institutionalized protection systems. A treaty is not going to make everything better over night but it is part of the process to make things better.




QUOTE]Originally posted by Ishmael
The article is one of the most self-serving pieces of crap that I've read in quite a while.

The writer uses a particularly poingnant anecdote to equate not signing the treaty to siding with the Taliban. What a bunch of shit.


No shit it is self-serving. Be more ignorant please. The article is trying to persuade people that signing and ratifying the treaty is a good thing. You persuade people by being self-serving. I would rate that truly horrific story as slightly more then an anecdote. That is not even the worst story I have heard. Go and find some of the tapes from the South African truth and reconciliation hearings. Those are some truly horrific and powerful tapes.



The United States is on record, from the Carter administration onwards, as being in favor of "human rights". Not rights for a select group, be it gender based, tribally based, religiously, or culturally based, but for all humans.


Oh yes and I think the entire world knows how most Americans, including the current administration after the Cuba trip, feel about Carter's administration.

I don't remember who said this exactly but I know he was from the UN so I am sure you won't like it without even reading it. He was trying to explain why additional treaties were needed for women, children and indigenous peoples. He called equated these treaties to putting extra cops in a high crime area. You know there is a greater likelihood of abuse/crime in these areas then others. Women, children and indigenous peoples are the victims of abuse more often because they are weaker and are easier to prey on.

The original international declaration does not have any provisions about women’s rights concerning reproduction and marriage and those are definitely rights unique to woman. The reason it does not have these provisions, or any provisions specifically for women, is because Eleanor Roosevelt did not think the declaration would pass with them included. She knew the time was not right at that the world had not matured to the point to accept those things yet.


[/B][/QUOTE]
 
I needed some time to think about because this is something I know I get worked up about.
 
Because he and Strom are life partners, and the Strommeister has to go first.
 
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