Why are many Literotica poems so vague?

[sack]

I've been reading a lot of poems lately, and am a bit surprised that so many are quite vague and unsatisfactory to read. While I would expect a poem in general to be more indirect than a story, there reaches a point where mere word play, no matter how clever simply doesn't cut it. Poetic license, taken too far just serves to weaken the structure of a poem and makes it a mere mishmash of syllables minus the thrust of a good story. As an example of what I mean, here's a recent poem submitted to Literotica minus the author. I'm sure there is a rhyme and reason to this prose, it must be my Dinosaur sized brain. To whit:
(my comments are in parentheses)

Mistletoe

if snow men and snow woman
were rolled together and they
melted from their frolic play
that would explain alot

(Well....let's see, what would it explain? If they melted from their frolic play into nothingness, it would explain that snow melts when it is exposed to higher temperatures. That does not constitute "a lot", and so far the poem has nothing to do with Mistletoe.)


but never understood
why mess with missy'stoes
kisses she gested
with toes over head

(WHO never understood? The author? The snowmen? Someone else? According to the dictionary, "gest" means an exploit or adventure. Thus..."Kisses she adventured". Oops...that can't be right. So what did the author mean here? Ingested? Suggested? And WHO is she? The author's girlfriend? My mother? A little girl? I am left with the image of some female standing on her head under the mistletoe. Huh??? )


sleigh ride of snow bladed song
blanket and horse drawn
singing christmas carols wrong
cold noses and kisses long


(Ok...now we've left the mistletoe and are in a sleigh. What exactly is "snow bladed song?" More to the point, What exactly is a "snow blade?" A blade of a sleigh covered with snow? Does the author mean to say that songs were sung as the blades of the sleigh cut through the snow? And why were the Christmas carols sung wrong? Did people forget the words? Were they trying to be silly? Or smartasses? I have no clue...also don't know why there were "kisses long", apparently WITHOUT the mistletoe. This would have been a good place to introduce it!)


holiday cheer for Santa's near
tranquility of a snow trailed deer
emotions roar for an inner wish
I hope you get it this Christmas


(I THINK a "snow trailed deer" means the reindeer's trail from the North Pole....it's hard to tell. I also don't see how the wish could be "inner" if it is stated verbatim in the next sentence. I thought "inner" meant secretive, private, within....has it changed meanings lately? And what does "I hope you get it this Christmas" mean? Get what? Holiday cheer? Good sex? Nice presents? With all the words from the English language that would have fit here, the use of the extremely vague "it" is a real conundrum....)

A poem is not some kind of "Mad Lib" where the reader inserts a word that could fit here and there. It has a definite beginning, middle, and end just like a good story. And while the best poems have SOME word imagery and unanswered questions, that does not mean that the reader needs to be Sherlock Holmes to figure them out. By the way, please understand that I'm not "picking on" this particular poem. I could have easily chose 10 just like it with similar issues. The point is, Lauren Hynde, Wicked Eve, and Tristesse have proven a happy medium can be reached.....where not everything is obvious yet the reader still can see with his mind's eye what the poem is generally trying to depict. I think that is a reasonable goal for us all.....

Sack

 

[The Mutt]

There is a quote I wish I could remember. Somebody famous once said something like, "a poem is something that can't be condensed any further." I heard the quote ages ago and I am sure I am butchering it. Anybody know what I'm talking about?

I tend to think that poems are like jokes; if you have to explain it, you didn't tell it right.

 

[WickedEve]

I don't think you'll be pleased with my new poem "achoo."

and then in the east
the sun sat down
and it was not suppose to

Did you get the achoo/sun connection?

Okay, some poems may be a bit too vague. I've been guilty of that many times.

 

[sack]

Exactly, Mutt, exactly......

A poem shouldn't have a myriad of unanswered questions that need to be "explained." If it's so personal or specific to the author and a few of his friends, than I wouldn't post it to the general public....


Sack

 

[Angeline]

You have raised a fundamental question about what poetry is, and in doing so have, imo, confirmed what I and Lauren and lots of other poets here and elsewhere believe. Poetry foremost needs to communicate. It's writing, and the primary purpose of writing is communication. It is a contract between writer and reader.

Prose is written primarily for three purposes: to inform, narrate, or persuade. They're not mutually exclusive; a story can be convincing and informative, an argument can present facts and use narrative examples to prove itself. Poems are different though because their purpose, in addiiton to communicating, is to transport the reader into the world of the poem, to give the reader a transcendant experience. The problem, in my opinion, is that lots of writers can put startling images together, but if they don't communicate or connect them well there's a gap between their imagination and your (the reader's) vision.

This is why I never understand people who say they don't think they need to edit. It doesn't matter how well you can string interesting phrases together if your verb tenses jump all over the place or you have pronouns without antecedants or you're just imprecise. The reader won't get it. You need to think long and hard about how much sense what you write makes. I go back and look at things I wrote a week ago, month ago, year ago and think Wait! That didn't make sense. I try to fix it.

A few specific points about the poem you mentioned (and not to single whoever wrote it out--I've written things that I could say the same about).

First,
This line is vague, and in a poem every word needs to count. It's good to suggest or imply in poetry, but "alot" is too general. It doesn't take the reader anywhere.
that would explain alot

Second,
I believe in the following the writer means the sound the blades of a sleigh make swishing through snow. It's a good line, but a hyphen might have made the image more apparent.
sleigh ride of snow-bladed song

And Third,
This line, for me, conjures an image of deer in a snow-filled meadow, with the trail of their hoof prints behind them. That is a tranquil image. Again, a hyphen might have helped.
tranquility of a snow-trailed deer

Each of those lines could have been stated more clearly if that's what they mean, true, but I think the larger problem is that the poem is not cohesive. If you keep a strong control on your language, you don't jump from one discrete image to the next. A good poem should be like a painting where you appreciate details, but leave with an impression of the overall image. You have to put time in and edit to achieve that.

So what I'm saying is that great poems can be very abstract and metaphoric and still be great poems without stating their point outright. If you read Robert Frost's Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening you know it's about being out alone in the snow because it's clear imagery, but it's also a parable about contemplating death without saying that word at all. Great poetry achieves the necessary balance between metaphor and clarity. And some poets, like Wallace Stevens, for example, write poems that can be very very abstract but still leave you with a strong, thematic understanding of their point.

It's not about too abstract. It's about good writing.

 

[sack]

to respond to Wicked Eve....

I've read about 50% of your output here, and I always get the gist of what you are talking about. I think your knowledge of the English language is so keen, that even when you deviate from the norm, the actual words used are crystal clear. It's very dangerous to be vague in poetry unless you know exactly what you are doing. I think that is why so many poems don't ring true....to be merely "clever" without knowing what you are deviating from simply doesn't work.


Sack Who thinks Wicked Eve's poetry is worth imitating!!

 

[Liar]

Sack, this is where you and I differ, I guess, in the view of what a poem can and can not be. A poem, like a piece of visual art does not always have to be a precise painted picture. Sometimes they can be. Other times they are vaugely impressionistic wordscapes. Other times plain good old surrealism, dadaism or what-have-you-ism, and works the same way. Stirring the reader's imagination and thought processes, instead of just communicating a concise story.

Many of my poems are indeed phonetic and semantic card houses, drawing images out of the language patterns instead of the message. Of course, some (if not most) are indeed intended to be clearer, but gets obscured by adding aestethics to it. Wordplay, pretty passages, far out metaphors, alliteration and so on. This is what I've feared about my writings lately, that by defining my "voice", I have begun speaking more gibberish than sense sometimes.

So please readers, whenever you don't get it, post a little "Uuh...I don't get it." so that I can better myself. Thanks in advance.

#L

 

[WickedEve]

Re: to respond to Wicked Eve....

I've read about 50% of your output here, and I always get the gist of what you are talking about. I think your knowledge of the English language is so keen, that even when you deviate from the norm, the actual words used are crystal clear. It's very dangerous to be vague in poetry unless you know exactly what you are doing. I think that is why so many poems don't ring true....to be merely "clever" without knowing what you are deviating from simply doesn't work.


Sack Who thinks Wicked Eve's poetry is worth imitating!!

Wow, now I'm going to have to love you for that.
Okay, here it comes... Ah, that was good. lol I know, I'm crazy.

 

[The Mutt]

I am primarily a storyteller. If you have read my poems you know this.
I have, however, really enjoyed some poems that sounded almost like free association. I am a big fan of word play.
I also remember sitting in English class as we dissected a poem trying to figure out its meaning and everyone in the class came up with a different result. Then the teacher would say something like, "The author spent two years in the trenches in WWI." A lot of the confusion would then be solved.
I have always felt that poems are meant to be read aloud. Just as an instrumental song can be as moving as a well-crafted lyric, a poem can move you even if you don't know exactly what the poet is saying. It is like abstract art. You imprint your own ideas onto the swirls of paint.

 

[The Mutt]

I should also say that when I see a poet has posted three poems on Tuesday and five more on Wednesday, they are just throwing brain-droppings at us and I give them a pass.

 

[sack]

"semantic card houses"

I like that phrase Liar.....so far Angelique has said it the best. If the ENTIRE Poem is intended to be word play and that is obvious from the writing itself, I have no issue with that. But a poem still has to be cohesive, even if a kaleidoscope of images is suggested. The poem I analyzed hops from one image to the next with little rhyme or reason that I can discern. I am hoping that someone can explain what I'm missing, I assume it's me, not the poet. Your poems are always worth reading, I do think they can be condensed even more to improve their overall effect. That seems to be a universal problem with us writers, we just never know when to shut up!

Sack

 

[WickedEve]

A poem, like a piece of visual art does not always have to be a precise painted picture. Sometimes they can be. Other times they are vaugely impressionistic wordscapes. Other times plain good old surrealism, dadaism or what-have-you-ism, and works the same way. Stirring the reader's imagination and thought processes, instead of just communicating a concise story.

#L

I had a big fuss about my serial sumie poem or maybe it was stereogram one. Anyway, it was not well received by some, because some readers didn't "get it." Of course, those who did understand it were able to follow the word clues in the poem and see the images clearly. Yes, it was the stereogram poem. stereogram seduction. And my neo petal poems are very surreal, and even though they may be difficult to decipher, I believe they leave the reader with some sense of mood, with some images. I have poems that many readers say they don't understand, yet they get a feeling of wistfulness, or some other feeling, simply by the words I've chosen. And I do enjoy writing a poem that tells a story. Actually, I'm still experimenting with it all. But bottom line, I want to communicate with the reader as much as possible--an intelligent reader.

 

[sack]

I got the Sumie poem right away....

Even with my dinosaur brain.....LOL! It's one of your Literotica masterpieces!!



Sack

 

[WickedEve]

Re: I got the Sumie poem right away....

Even with my dinosaur brain.....LOL! It's one of your Literotica masterpieces!!



Sack

I forgot what it's about. lol I may need to borrow the dino brain.

 

[Du Lac]

What is art? What is poetry?

What is art? Is a Poussin more art because it is a clearly painted detailed painting then a cubism work by Picasso? Is it not up to the viewer, to be lulled into a work, hear the voice of the artist? I like abstract, while I enjoy works from Frost and others.. I am drawn to the Wallace Stevens of this poetry set world. Abstract leaving just enough for the reader to meld with the artist. While I appreciate the clear cut dimensions of some poetry.. and yes I have those also... I love the spinning of Celtic laced rhetoric, allowing small spaces of the readers imagination to weave within the lace. Hence I loved this poem by ET... it was light hearted and fun... I so got it... Wrong versions of song.. when you make up your own words.. non conformity!!!

So.. what is art what is poetry... Neo classical or Cubism?/???
Experimentation is where we push the envelope to learn how to expand our horizons.. thank God for those who challenge to change.. and put their works out there for all to see and read!
blessings
Du Lac

 

[sack]

I'm glad someone got it.....

I hadn't thought about "singing the carols wrong" indicating non-conformity, as the rest of the poem seems pretty innocuous. But, you have made me think, should we just take these poems in, like a child's fingerpainting?? In that case, does "anything go", in the sense of a "stream of consciousness"? As usual, Du Lac muddies the waters. God Bless you!


Sack

 

[The Mutt]

Hey sack. How can you only have 154 posts in a year and a half? What, do you have a life or something?

 

[WickedEve]

Hey sack. How can you only have 154 posts in a year and a half? What, do you have a life or something?

Oh, he has been here a long time! He has a life! Damn. Mutt, get the pitchfork and I'll get the torch. Sack, may we borrow a lighter, please? And a pitchfork.

 

[sack]

or does "The Life have me!"

I can't believe I've actually submitted 48 poems and stories to Literotica in 18 months or so! That's two a month! And to think I
actually LIKE a half dozen or so!!! LOL!





The incredibly prolific Sack

 

[minsue]

I had a big fuss about my serial sumie poem or maybe it was stereogram one. Anyway, it was not well received by some, because some readers didn't "get it." Of course, those who did understand it were able to follow the word clues in the poem and see the images clearly. Yes, it was the stereogram poem. stereogram seduction. And my neo petal poems are very surreal, and even though they may be difficult to decipher, I believe they leave the reader with some sense of mood, with some images. I have poems that many readers say they don't understand, yet they get a feeling of wistfulness, or some other feeling, simply by the words I've chosen. And I do enjoy writing a poem that tells a story. Actually, I'm still experimenting with it all. But bottom line, I want to communicate with the reader as much as possible--an intelligent reader.

If I'm recalling the correct poem, I didn't "get it", but I did love it.

I love stories and poems that are clearly written, but above all I love words. If the words tickle me or move me or make me feel pretty much anything at all, it is to me a good poem. There is plenty of poetry that is well and clearly written, but I don't feel anything when I read it.

I don't care if it's vague or crystal clear, if it doesn't move me I've no use for poetry.

(forgive me if I don't make sense. I'm on a sugar crash. )

 

[The Mutt]

Oh, he has been here a long time! He has a life! Damn. Mutt, get the pitchfork and I'll get the torch. Sack, may we borrow a lighter, please? And a pitchfork.

One of us! One of us! One of us!

 

[WickedEve]

If I'm recalling the correct poem, I didn't "get it", but I did love it.

You know what worries me? I go back and read poems that I've written months or a year ago, and I don't know what in the world I'm talking about. It sounds cool, and I like it, but I don't know what it's about. That's a bad, bad thing.
Oh, this is funny. A few years ago, I had this brilliant person comment regularly on my poetry. He'd review it and discuss what my poem was about. He was rarely right. He thought every simple phrase, each straightforward image was some great metaphor, when in fact it was just simple and straightforward. Then I realized that I didn't have to be a brilliant poet. I just needed brilliant readers who saw genius in everything, simply because they were brilliant!

 

[WickedEve]

One of us! One of us! One of us!

What are you so excited about? You want me to use the pitchfork on you, don't you?

poke, poke

Am I being too gentle?

 

[The Mutt]

You know what worries me? I go back and read poems that I've written months or a year ago, and I don't know what in the world I'm talking about. It sounds cool, and I like it, but I don't know what it's about. That's a bad, bad thing.
Oh, this is funny. A few years ago, I had this brilliant person comment regularly on my poetry. He'd review it and discuss what my poem was about. He was rarely right. He thought every simple phrase, each straightforward image was some great metaphor, when in fact it was just simple and straightforward. Then I realized that I didn't have to be a brilliant poet. I just needed brilliant readers who saw genius in everything, simply because they were brilliant!

That reminds me of the stories (apocryphal?) of guests at an art gallery ooohing and aahhing over the fire extinguisher.

 

[The Mutt]

What are you so excited about? You want me to use the pitchfork on you, don't you?

poke, poke

Am I being too gentle?

Nope, you're using the wrong end.