Who's right?

[PennLady]

Sigh. Kinda bummed. My publisher has rejected Numbers Game. Kind of tough. I mean, not the end of the world, etc., etc. I had hoped to get it up and a few copies sold by year's end. I don't know quite what to do. She said it didn't have (enough) conflict. I guess I let it sit, find a new beta reader, and have it read again. And I can publish myself at Amazon, etc., I suppose.

So... I guess my question is how do I know if she's right? Or does it matter? It got lots of positive comments and such, so I know people liked it (for what that's worth) Some I told were looking forward to reading the e-book with the changes.

I guess I won't know b/c it's all opinion, hmm? I mean, I guess I can look it over, or have someone else do it, and see where I can insert conflict. There is conflict, albeit perhaps not the usual stuff in a romance (as in, not quite as dramatic). Maybe she didn't like it.

I don't know. I'm quite confused about it at the moment.

 

[sr71plt]

Is the book the way you want it? If so, there are lots of e-publishers. What's the genre? Go to www.allromanceebooks.com or www.fictionwise.com and find books that are similiar to yours, check who published it, and use the websites' lists and links to build a likely publisher list and submit to those that are accepting submissions.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Editors are notorious for buying what they personally like, and buying copycats of best-sellers. Almost every best selling writer had a best-seller rejected by plenty of editors.

Shop it, and if everyone holds her nose, fix it.

 

[PennLady]

Is the book the way you want it? If so, there are lots of e-publishers. What's the genre? Go to www.allromanceebooks.com or www.fictionwise.com and find books that are similiar to yours, check who published it, and use the websites' lists and links to build a likely publisher list and submit to those that are accepting submissions.

I think the book is the way I want it. It's one of my hockey romances; the basic plot is a 32 yo woman falls for a 25yo hockey player, and the age difference is a bit of a problem. It's hard to explain, as it does have some of the usual romantic situations -- i.e., they do break up and reunite -- but I had hoped I'd done them a little differently. They have ups and downs.

That is a good suggestion, it just takes time that I don't have right now. Perhaps after the holidays; PennGirl will (cross fingers) be going to a pre-school a couple of days a week starting in January.

I admit I'm not in the best frame of mind anyway -- I'm still sick, suspect I am occasionally running a fever, and am tired. So I'm trying to take a step back and really consider things objectively. I can't quite look at my story objectively, yet; it's just too soon after revising, editing, etc.

What can I say? I was surprised. When she sent initial edits, she said she really liked the story. So I wasn't expecting her to turn around and reject it.

I also struggle with wondering just how qualified the editor/publisher is. I mean, honestly, I have no idea of her background or anything. She could be an English major, could be an accountant. But she runs the place, so I have to at least take her opinions into consideration.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Rejections are a writer's daily fare, and we've all heard stories about a book being rejected by 50-60 publishers before someone took a chance and it became a best-seller. Most publishers have lists of things they look for and things they don't want. I've had stuff rejected for being "too pornographic", or not having enough plot (i.e. conflict), or for being told from a male POV instead of a woman's or for being vague on a character's motivation. I published with someone else and they all did okay.

What might have happened was that your editor initially liked the story, then showed it around to other editors, which is usually the way these things work, who weren't that crazy about it. It was death by committee.

But I can see where your story might be problematic in terms of conflict, especially if your publisher specializes in Erotic Romance. That age difference really isn't that significant, and a couple having relationship troubles is hardly the stuff of high drama. Make her 50 or him 18 and try it again.

 

[PennLady]

Rejections are a writer's daily fare, and we've all heard stories about a book being rejected by 50-60 publishers before someone took a chance and it became a best-seller.

True enough. I admit to being spoiled that way. This is a small e-publisher that originally approached me, and has published all my novels so far.

What might have happened was that your editor initially liked the story, then showed it around to other editors, which is usually the way these things work, who weren't that crazy about it. It was death by committee.

That's not what happened here. There is one editor at this place; like I said, it's small. So she has the final say.

But I can see where your story might be problematic in terms of conflict, especially if your publisher specializes in Erotic Romance. That age difference really isn't that significant, and a couple having relationship troubles is hardly the stuff of high drama. Make her 50 or him 18 and try it again.

They specialize in erotica; i.e., they publish various types of erotica, not just romantic. I'd be willing to make the age difference a little bigger, but not much. Prior to the relationship in the book, the woman had just been dumped by her bf, who was cheating with and continued to date a woman 10 yrs her junior. So that's why she's sensitive to the age difference.

I was trying to do something a little different. Perhaps that was the original error.

 

[Firebrain]

Sounds like you do need more beta reads. A good crit partner is worth their weight in gold with this stuff If you can find one (try the beta match forums on Absolute Write?), don't mention the conflict thing. Just see if it comes up.

Where else have you submitted? I'd try all the epubs (that I felt comfortable with) before going down the self-pub route, purely because it's so much work. Do get a few more reads on it, though. Sometimes, you find the right person who can suggest a tweak that brings the whole thing together.

And yeah, rejection blows. Good luck!

Just to add--I think it adds a new layer of conflict when other people have said great things about your work, but you struggle to sell it. In the end, I figure, I can always make it better, whether it was good or not to begin with.

 

[PennLady]

Sounds like you do need more beta reads. A good crit partner is worth their weight in gold with this stuff If you can find one (try the beta match forums on Absolute Write?), don't mention the conflict thing. Just see if it comes up.

I'll think about that. I have two issues here. One is that I do have a beta reader that I joke is a slave driver, but he really does raise objections and questions and make me think about things, which is all to the good. A slight drawback is that he has a more artistic background and doesn't care so much about the usual or commercial aspect of things. However, he does realize that I'm not so much that way and tries to curb it to keep my stuff... accessible? I'm not sure what word fits.

The other issue is that I do utilize multiple beta readers from time to time, and often the problem there is that of "too many cooks." If A says this works and B says it doesn't, and C suggests something else -- that can lead to writing paralysis.

Where else have you submitted? I'd try all the epubs (that I felt comfortable with) before going down the self-pub route, purely because it's so much work. Do get a few more reads on it, though. Sometimes, you find the right person who can suggest a tweak that brings the whole thing together.

I haven't submitted anywhere else. As I said, they approached me when they were starting out, and it's been good since. I'm not trying to put them down, at all -- they've been great. I've published both new stuff and stuff that was originally on free sites, and in nonhuman and... human, so they don't try to pigeonhole me in a genre or anything.

I feel like I don't have the time to work on submissions elsewhere. I have two kids and am home with the youngest; that seriously cuts down on writing time unless I let her sit in front of the TV. Which I've been doing too much of lately, since I haven't felt well. But to me, trying to find the time to research publishers, agents, and all of that is just time I can't write. I know I should do it, I just feel like I have too many obligations and that tends to end up with me paralyzed a bit and sticking to what I know.

And yeah, rejection blows. Good luck!

Thanks.

Just to add--I think it adds a new layer of conflict when other people have said great things about your work, but you struggle to sell it. In the end, I figure, I can always make it better, whether it was good or not to begin with.

I am open to ideas on the story, let me be clear. I'm not trying to curl up around it and say no, no, no changes! I'm just at the moment at a loss.

 

[colddiesel]

I think the book is the way I want it.

What can I say? I was surprised. When she sent initial edits, she said she really liked the story. So I wasn't expecting her to turn around and reject it.

I also struggle with wondering just how qualified the editor/publisher is. I mean, honestly, I have no idea of her background or anything. She could be an English major, could be an accountant. But she runs the place, so I have to at least take her opinions into consideration.

It may be the way you want it, and she may well like it herself, but neither of those facts are material to her judgement as to whether it is commercial.

If your previous books have sold well she probably has some genuine concerns but I would have thought that she owes you a slightly fuller explanation than just, "lacks conflict."

Beware of questioning the editors "qualifications," it smacks slightly, (only slightly) of looking for an excuse! Editors can come from all sorts of backgrounds. I doubt an English Major has any special qualifications as to the commercial potential of a piece.

Put it to some other publishers. Even a variety of rejections could be instructive.

Don't take it too much to heart, you have had a pretty good run to date.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

...

It's one of my hockey romances ...

Just how many hockey romances have you published with her? Maybe she's just getting tired of hockey?

 

[PennLady]

If your previous books have sold well she probably has some genuine concerns but I would have thought that she owes you a slightly fuller explanation than just, "lacks conflict."

She did write an email that outlined her objections; I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I just didn't want to repeat everything here word for word. I'm not trying to put anybody down or anything like that. I'm just ... thinking, I guess.

Beware of questioning the editors "qualifications," it smacks slightly, (only slightly) of looking for an excuse! Editors can come from all sorts of backgrounds. I doubt an English Major has any special qualifications as to the commercial potential of a piece.

Put it to some other publishers. Even a variety of rejections could be instructive.

I'm not looking for an excuse; I have actually wondered from the beginning what her qualifications as an editor are, but never got around to asking. I mean, I think it's a legit question, but then again, it's not like I studied to be an author. The idea of submitting to other publishers is daunting, mostly for the time involved in research, writing cover letters, etc.

Don't take it too much to heart, you have had a pretty good run to date.

Thanks.

Just how many hockey romances have you published with her? Maybe she's just getting tired of hockey?

I have published four nonhuman romances, and one book of hockey romances that contains four short stories, two by me and two by MugsyB (aka Tamara Clarke). So I don't think this is a factor.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

That sucks, PL. Talk about crappy news to get when you're feeling crappy. I hope PennBoy and PennGirl gave you big hugs today to make up for it.

My first thought was that you should do a lovely cost-benefit analysis of changing the story vs. finding a new publisher vs. self-publishing. I'm sure my advice shocks you.

But those equations wouldn't be quite right, since the nature of those costs and benefits is complicated by the potential for a long-term, multi-book problem with this publisher. You've only posted two chapters of your newest hockey romance here, but when that's done, will you want to publish it at some point? And does ROTBL have an equivalent amount of drama (or less) than Numbers Game?

Since your style isn't big on romance drama, I think this might not be a one-time thing. As you said, you've only published NH with them--which has an entirely different set of drama--and a compilation with MugsyB; since this is the first stand-alone pure romance, it might be a sign of things to come. In which case, the time you spend finding another publisher (or doing it yourself) might not be so bad, when viewed over the long-term.

ETA: On the plus side, I bet the Caps-Blues game tonight will be a good one. And since they are playing the Blues, I'm rooting for the Caps. (Weird.)

 

[PennLady]

My first thought was that you should do a lovely cost-benefit analysis of changing the story vs. finding a new publisher vs. self-publishing. I'm sure my advice shocks you.

Doesn't shock, but I'm terrible at economics.

You've only posted two chapters of your newest hockey romance here, but when that's done, will you want to publish it at some point? And does ROTBL have an equivalent amount of drama (or less) than Numbers Game?

I think there will be more drama, or more obvious drama in R&BL. It takes him a bit to coax her into dating in the first place, and coincidentally, my beta reader said he saw a lack of conflict. Luckily, I have a couple of spots where it will be easy to change what's there and add it in. And it should have been there anyway, I just got sidetracked.

Since your style isn't big on romance drama, I think this might not be a one-time thing. As you said, you've only published NH with them--which has an entirely different set of drama--and a compilation with MugsyB; since this is the first stand-alone pure romance, it might be a sign of things to come. In which case, the time you spend finding another publisher (or doing it yourself) might not be so bad, when viewed over the long-term.

These are all good points. Certainly part of it is I felt like I worked hard to produce a good, involving romance that wasn't like every other one out there (as I'm sure we all do). Maybe I went too far in that.

ETA: On the plus side, I bet the Caps-Blues game tonight will be a good one. And since they are playing the Blues, I'm rooting for the Caps. (Weird.)

I am ambivalent about the Caps' coaching change. I always am. I mean, I know how it works -- players don't produce, and the coach is the first to go. They might try that again before blowing the team up, if that becomes necessary. But I can't blame the coach in this situation. The players (led by #8, one has to imagine) began to not respond, yet they are the ones on the ice. They are the ones who stopped producing in the playoffs, not him.

But I like Dale Hunter.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't think it should take too long to identify another e-publisher or two and get it on the submission trail again.

Your publisher doesn't sound too experienced. Since you appear to be established with her as a publishing house author, she really shouldn't be turning down anything unless it's poorly written and/or just not in a genre they represent.

If you find another publisher, you might want to stick with them.

 

[PennLady]

I don't think it should take too long to identify another e-publisher or two and get it on the submission trail again.

Your publisher doesn't sound too experienced. Since you appear to be established with her as a publishing house author, she really shouldn't be turning down anything unless it's poorly written and/or just not in a genre they represent.

If you find another publisher, you might want to stick with them.

Thanks. As I've said, I've no idea of her level of experience or knowledge in general about editing, literature, or anything else. At the moment, it comes down to she's in charge, so ... she's in charge. They've been doing this for about two years and have a small stable of authors, I guess you could say.

I suppose I should let it lie for a while and then find someone who's willing to read it who hasn't before and then perhaps I can get a more objective opinion as regards the conflict, or lack thereof.

 

[R. Richard]

I have some 32 novels published. Much of what I write is slam-bang adventure. When I submitted a romance, my publisher refused to even read it. Fortunately she has other editors. They read Involuntary Nude and liked it. They got her to read it. It's selling pretty well.

I also wrote an incest story that my publisher refused to read. However, she had one of her editors read it and she then publised it. Friday Night is one of my best sellers.

It's your story. If you have to find a new publisher, do it. You have to get your work out for the public to read. However, it's tough to build a readership in Amazon, if you have just one thing published. There are a lot of books in Amazon.

 

[PennLady]

It's your story. If you have to find a new publisher, do it. You have to get your work out for the public to read. However, it's tough to build a readership in Amazon, if you have just one thing published. There are a lot of books in Amazon.

I have seven books available on Amazon right now, so it's not like I'm just starting. But yes, there are a ton of books there.

 

[sr71plt]

I suppose I should let it lie for a while and then find someone who's willing to read it who hasn't before and then perhaps I can get a more objective opinion as regards the conflict, or lack thereof.

I don't think you've been listening to the advice. Everyone I see has pretty much suggested you just try it with another publisher if you're satisfied with it and not start tearing it apart or thinking it needs to be torn apart just because one publisher doesn't want it.

You could beta read and retool it ad nauseum and just be reducing it to pablum.

 

[estragon]

SA Penn Lady, first get over the flu (or whatever it is). Then decide what you want to do. Too many players on the ice just now (including me, so I'll skate off).

 

[PennLady]

I don't think you've been listening to the advice. Everyone I see has pretty much suggested you just try it with another publisher if you're satisfied with it and not start tearing it apart or thinking it needs to be torn apart just because one publisher doesn't want it.

You could beta read and retool it ad nauseum and just be reducing it to pablum.

I have been listening to the advice, and I agree it's worth sending it to someone else. However, I still think it may be worth having an unbiased, or at least new, reader, read it to see if they agree with my publisher's assessment. I will not start tearing it apart. I completely agree that too much reading and tweaking would reduce it to nothing. I guess I feel like that new objective assessment might clear things up. Then again, it might not. I may feel differently in the morning.

SA Penn Lady, first get over the flu (or whatever it is). Then decide what you want to do. Too many players on the ice just now (including me, so I'll skate off).

Thank you sir, that's good advice as well.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

Sigh. Kinda bummed. My publisher has rejected Numbers Game. Kind of tough. I mean, not the end of the world, etc., etc. I had hoped to get it up and a few copies sold by year's end. I don't know quite what to do. She said it didn't have (enough) conflict. I guess I let it sit, find a new beta reader, and have it read again. And I can publish myself at Amazon, etc., I suppose.

So... I guess my question is how do I know if she's right? Or does it matter? It got lots of positive comments and such, so I know people liked it (for what that's worth) Some I told were looking forward to reading the e-book with the changes.

I guess I won't know b/c it's all opinion, hmm? I mean, I guess I can look it over, or have someone else do it, and see where I can insert conflict. There is conflict, albeit perhaps not the usual stuff in a romance (as in, not quite as dramatic). Maybe she didn't like it.

I don't know. I'm quite confused about it at the moment.

JK Rowling had to go to 27 editors to get Harry Potter through, and even then they dumbed it down because they didn't think that American audiences would comprehend anything too complex. Look what happened to her!

Good luck

 

[Firebrain]

You don't need qualifications to be an editor, if you were wondering You need experience and training within the publishing industry, as well as a good knowledge of grammar etc. To be perfectly honest, there are some pretty inexperienced people working in epublishing--you have to make your own judgement as to whether you want to work with a person. Factors to consider: does this house have market presence? How happy are other authors? Are sales good? Which vendors do they supply to? (Amazon, B&N, iBooks, All Romance etc. The more the better where romance is concerned). It must be mentioned that there are some very good editors too, mind. The more established a house, the better you'll find they are in terms of getting your manuscript clean and market-ready. (Browse review blogs. Bookmark the bigger ones. They comment on publisher style as well as book content all the time, and they're generally a great source of info for somebody looking to write to sell).

To be fair, this is a new publisher. Most businesses fail in the first year and it's good practise to submit only to places that have been going longer than a year, since if they tank, they take the rights to your story with them (even if it says they revert in your contract, they could be sold off in certain circumstances). And where does that leave you? Of course publishers need authors in their first year, but you aren't a debut author and you've barely tapped the market. I'd consider this a bit of a bonus and go elsewhere, if it were me.

I also find it weird that you've evidently submitted edits beforehand and then she rejected it. Normally, either a story is contracted after a first read, or you're offered a revise and resubmit. If this wasn't what was offered, I'd be very annoyed.

 

[Firebrain]

Also, I wonder if "not enough conflict" really means "not enough drama." It might just mean that the stakes aren't high enough. This is a common genre complaint. What do these people stand to lose? Take it away. Then give it back again, with a ribbon on. That's romance.

 

[sr71plt]

Editing experience and training within the publishing industry are qualifications for editing. I think you mean you don't need a college degree in editing. It's true that a good many industry editors came up with just gathering the experience working inside the industry. (That doesn't mean they are good editors--or publishers--just by hanging out a shingle and not having worked in the industry at all, of course.)

But, yes, this instance rings a false note. Publishers don't usually stiff their own stable of authors--and most certainly not after having asked for and gotten adjustments. They don't want the authors they established for themselves to take a walk.

 

[PennLady]

You don't need qualifications to be an editor, if you were wondering You need experience and training within the publishing industry, as well as a good knowledge of grammar etc.

Oh, I know. Like I said, I just have never asked my publisher why she got into this, why she considers herself editor material, etc. It's also a bit late to bring it up now.

I've been avoiding the name of the publisher, but that's probably silly, as anyone can go to my profile and such and figure it out, and I'm sure I've mentioned them before. However, I want to make it clear that I am not slamming or criticizing them -- even small publisher is free to reject stuff, even from authors they've worked with before.

So let me just back up. A friend recommended back in 2009 that I start posting my stories on Erotica Republic, and I did, including my (nohuman) story "Exiled." The site was run by a husband and wife, and the wife contacted me and asked if I would be writing a sequel to "Exiled," and if so, would I be interested in having them publish it as an e-book. They were starting an e-press, Republica Press, and only publish e-books. I said yes, and wrote "Young Blood." That was one of the four books that they launched with in I think Dec 2009. They've added a number of authors since then, many from here, and the free site (Erotica Republic) was disbanded as they didn't have the time to devote to it. Republica Press is still going, as far as I know, with no plans to stop and books in the queue for at least the next month.

It is still run by the husband and wife team -- she handles the stories and he handles the technical end. So she is the one and only editor at this little house.

Factors to consider: does this house have market presence? How happy are other authors? Are sales good? Which vendors do they supply to? (Amazon, B&N, iBooks, All Romance etc.

I don't know what good sales are. They're good for me if only in that they're better than nothing. No, that's not true. Like many, I suppose when I put out a new book, there's a spike, and then things level off. They supply to the vendors you mentioned, as well as Bookstrand and I think Smashwords. They're very good about responding to questions, and timely with the quarterly payments.

You have a good point about submitting to established places, but like I said -- I was approached at the beginning, I never asked to submit to them.

I also find it weird that you've evidently submitted edits beforehand and then she rejected it. Normally, either a story is contracted after a first read, or you're offered a revise and resubmit. If this wasn't what was offered, I'd be very annoyed.

What I did was post the story (Numbers Game), then after a while (like a year) took it down and went over it with the help of a beta reader. I then sent that revised file to my editor. She read the first few chapters and said she liked it, also suggesting some mechanical changes that I agreed with, and a scene placement change that I also agreed with. Then about a week passed and I was waiting for the rest, and she emailed to say that she wasn't going to publish it, citing a lack of conflict.

I know I'm always advising people to take comments and feedback here with a grain of salt, so with that in mind -- for the year or so that this story was up, and in all the feedback I got from more than one site, no one told me there was a lack of conflict.

Also, I wonder if "not enough conflict" really means "not enough drama." It might just mean that the stakes aren't high enough. This is a common genre complaint. What do these people stand to lose? Take it away. Then give it back again, with a ribbon on. That's romance.

That may be. And that's what I did, albeit not in a histrionic way. It was something of a step forward and half back, and then finally a breaking off before the end.

Editing experience and training within the publishing industry are qualifications for editing. I think you mean you don't need a college degree in editing. <snip>

But, yes, this instance rings a false note. Publishers don't usually stiff their own stable of authors--and most certainly not after having asked for and gotten adjustments. They don't want the authors they established for themselves to take a walk.

Again, I want to emphasize that I'm not saying she's a bad editor or publisher. Whatever her background is, she set the place up, asked me about publishing, and I agreed and as I said before, she's in charge. Which doesn't make her right, just in charge.

I have emailed her back, and observed that given what she told me, she stopped just before the conflict(s) began. So I didn't get the entire manuscript back with edits, only the first eight chapters. My beta reader thinks she's impatient, and perhaps so. The only thing left now is to let it sit for a while and then try with other publishers, which I think will have to be left until after the new year.

I really appreciate everyone's support and information.