Who owns history? Who owns ideas, plots, characters?

[Emberto]

Who owns history? Who owns ideas, plots, characters?

I started pondering this a long time ago, but recently a few things have brought me back to the topic. Twenty years or so ago I wrote a story. The rules were very different then. The crux of the story is not at issue, rewritten multiple times that story is posted here.

The grammar used in the original likely would earn me a rejection letter today. One rewrite corrected that issue. Comments from many stated that the story wasn’t believable or fully comprehensible to people outside the geographic area it depicted. A rewrite doubled the stories page count and added a geographical setting and time period, as well as the character’s background. Those were constructive rewrites.

The pendulum swings, topics that had their own categories here are now verboten. Others are permissible only if said to be fictional. I fear now that everything will have to say that it’s parody.

An author I once corresponded with has a multiple piece story up here. I have a copy of all of his work including a chapter that was taken down. I stopped receiving emails from him years ago, then months after his last one to me I got a ‘boilerplate’ message saying that he had passed. I’d love to redact the three lines (in multiple pages) of a joke (yes, the topic is now forbidden. But, it wasn’t back then and it is immaterial to the story) told in the story that I believe got the story yanked and resubmit it (under his user name of course).

But I fear that bringing to the site owners attention may result in the other chapters of the story coming down. I have made the decision to add SSC (Safe Sane and Consensual) language to BDSM stories that came down, for myself and others who had their stories taken down. Will I now have to alter that? Is RACK (Risk-Aware Consensual Kink) the new standard? Will I have to convert Imperial gallons to Liters next?

I’m younger than the authors that I really enjoyed reading when I discovered this site. I have and continue to correspond with many. As said I have done minor revisions for those who still have the ability to post and repost. But what of those who don’t? Clearly some sort of succession arrangement would be best. If I had ‘QWERTYs’ codes I could monitor his catalog. But that is asking for a lot of trust. I could see why people would have objections and I have never asked for such authority.

A friend had a number of stories taken down. They were well received, many had “H”s but that did not protect them. They were in a category that has come under increasing pressure from whack-a-doodles. I offered to re-work them to the new (certainly not higher) standards. I get sick of hearing that the new standards are higher, they are just more PC. That isn’t the owners fault, it’s a wack-a-doodle society that lets it happen.

After re-writing the first one, which I had changed the category of out of fear that the category now being restricted will eventually be banned like ___ and ___ , he decided that he liked “my” story, but it wasn’t “his” story anymore. We went back and did a less drastic revision. (Which was rejected, likely for the same reason the original was pulled.) He said that I should change the names of the characters and submit it because although it wasn’t his he liked it.

What do others think? I’m of the school of thought that everything is derivative of something else. Pharmaceutical companies take public funded research, add 5% and patent a ‘new’ drug. A famous author once said that there were only seven original stories and that everything else was an adaptation of one of those seven. If I take his story of sister’s Mary and Mindy and change it to one about secretaries Michelle, Margaret, and Maisy. If I keep the same plot but changing pertinent dialog, is it a revision or a new story?

I’d love to make it a fan fiction, referencing the original. But I can’t reference other works here as fan fiction (we aren't famous or maybe infamous enough) and I have recently morphed several fan fictions into stories that are, well … About a girl who grew up in Wisconsin (but not Milwaukee) with a motorcycle mechanic living in the apartment over the garage who moved to Illinois (but not Chicago) and lived with his cousin. I guess fan fiction is getting a lot of heat from copyright holders right now.

The original story was likely pulled for ‘artificial aging’ because that was the initial rejection on the rewrite. Even though the actress who played the part was over 18 the last four seasons during which time the character graduated high school, moved away, lived with her boyfriend and got married. I changed the names and added a kink (for placement) and it had no problems.

On the subject of ‘artificial aging,’ one story I rewrote was originally about a character that started out as a high school student on a television series that ran for ten years. The actress was 20 at the time, she was never seen to graduate but did start a job working for a character whose age was never mentioned. But the actor was 63 when the series started. 25 and 68, underage. Again moved to a different category it encountered no problems.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I understand your concerns and frustration, but I think the ultimate question is not, “Who owns ideas, plots and characters?” but rather, “Who owns this website?”

The author clearly owns ideas, plots and characters, but that doesn’t give him or her any legal or even moral right to display or express those things on a privately-owned site. Literotica is Laurel’s site and Laurel’s rules trump logic, precedent and personal feelings. If we don’t like it, we have the right to take our bats and balls and go home.

 

[SamScribble]

I don’t know who owns history. But I do know that it’s mostly written by the winners.

There are exceptions of course. When the Vikings ‘invaded’ Britain in the ninth century, they made the mistake of sacking a few Christian monasteries. Unfortunately, the monks pretty much controlled the mainstream media, and the Vikings got a bad press, full of rape, pillage, and horned hats.

 

[Emberto]

For me, writing is a relaxing hobby...

The author clearly owns ideas, plots and characters, but that doesn’t give him or her any legal or even moral right to display or express those things on a privately-owned site. Literotica is Laurel’s site and Laurel’s rules trump logic, precedent and personal feelings. If we don’t like it, we have the right to take our bats and balls and go home.

I agree 100%, I even acknowledged the same, and went further. This is a person's business. Her place, her rules. But it's also a place that used to have different rules as well as different interpretations of rules that haven't technically been changed. I understand something about running a small business, since I do so. I understand WHY a disclaimer that everyone is over 18 is required when the characters having sex are two military generals. After all Alexander the Great was only 18. Maybe there is a 17 year old four-star out there, and 17 year old doctors and nurses.

But it is not germane to the question posited.

I didn't ask that the rules be explained, I know them, not because they are posted (they aren't) I have never submitted a story that violated a posted rule. I have however dealt with my own, and other peoples stories that were accepted, and up for years, before the way that the rules are interpreted changed.

I didn't ask why the interpretation changed.

I know why.

A bunch of people with an emotional IQ of 12 decided they were "icky" and they got other people to agree with them and rouse rabble. As stated, this is a business, the owner doesn't need the aggravation. It isn't that hard for me to change a couple of lines in a story that were included to show one characters disdain for someone. But a character saying "yeah, well, consider your source. Bert ___'s donkeys," when it's clearly an insult doesn't equate to _____ any more than a character calling someone a "MF" makes it an I/T story.

I understand your concerns and frustration.

It goes deeper than that, I have no quarrels with our host. I appreciate the forum she provides. But we are, all of us here under attack from those 12 year olds. Once they ban ___ they demand that ____ be disclaimed and ____ refer to only certain people and then ____ gets banned and ____ has to be segregated. Try logging onto maudite(dot something dot)fr, you can't, it's gone. That elephant was eaten, one bite at a time.

My friend "gave" me the parts of the story I did not create in the rewrite. So that story isn't at issue. Personally, I would not have published it if he hadn't encouraged me to. But I wonder at what percentage of the work involved I would feel differently. Certainly if we had co written and co published the original work. I would feel it acceptable to publish a rewrite individually with an acknowledgement that it was a rewrite of our initial joint effort. (That's a better deal than graduate student get.)

I'm not picking on your post. Her site, her rules, I seriously doubt she wnts to del with squabbles over ownership of stories. I own or oversee stories that I would never try to post here (like Disney fan-fiction). I respect her right not to want to deal with Disney's legal team. I hope my reply isn't taken negatively, it isn't meant that way, but while ...

I think the ultimate question is not, “Who owns ideas, plots and characters?” but rather, “Who owns this website?”

That may well be the ultimate question. But, it isn't the question I was asking. I own paper as well as digital copies of my late friends work, so I can read it. Today you can read 10 of the 11 chapters, maybe tomorrow that will be 9 of 11.

What I wonder is "do authors here have a consensus on who owns what part of a story posted for the world to see and duplicate if they wish to." Some stories I have written or watch over have been reposted elsewhere, which isn't cool.

If it's under other people's pseudonyms I generally send them a PM saying "I own those fictional characters and locales, rewrite it with different proper nouns." Sometimes its under my pseudonym (but on a different site) which makes me very uneasy. Because I don't control that pseudonym there and don't know if they are a fan or have a different reason in mind for what they did ...

(The weirdest instance was where someone claimed that they WERE my fictional character, who was incidentally born in one fictional city and lived in a second one.)

My parents were married to one another when I was born so I have been deemed ineligible for law school, but I really am not looking for a legal answer. Just people's thoughts on the subject of who owns what part of a creative work.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Emberto,

No hard feelings and I hope you feel the same. Perhaps I misunderstood your question.

The site FAQ section is quite clear that the story remains the property of the owner, but says Literotica assumes the legal right to help protect that copyright. Is that what you were asking?

 

[Emberto]

Twenty years ago, I was at home, caring for an infant and a toddler. I like fan fiction where the stuff that is censored out gets replaced. 'Joanie Really Loves Chachi,' stuff. (RIP Erin). I wrote several that are/were published here. I wrote a parody 'Sesame Street for Grownups.' One chapter was a May-December between Maria and Mr. Hooper. (Sorta like what Jeff Whittly did later and far more successfully with 'Avenue Q'). Times change, stories that were acceptable once are no longer.

'Joanie' was easily morphed into a first time story, but SSfG needed a new home. I had been corresponding with other authors. Back then 'siblings with benefits' wasn't by default I/T. Several were in FF, GS, and E/V. The Waltons, Happy Days, All In the Family, Brady Bunch and others helped out with movies and spin-offs. Then these became unacceptable unless it was a vanilla heterosexual encounter between two characters, nothing 'kinky.'

My friend wrote "true ___ " which was acceptable back then. He had close to 100 stories up at one time in EV. Many had red "H"s. His mom and dad's story fit nicely into EV. His own story started when: "at 18 he and his sister watched them for the first time." Over time that became unacceptable. To be published you had to say it was fiction. He found the place I mentioned, and passed it to me.

There were no categories, "just tag it as to what was in it." I always submitted here first, but if it was rejected I published it there.

I get it. This is a business, and loud, obnoxious, idiots are putting pressure on all erotic sites. My stories posted here that had "a bit of this an a bit of that" were hardest hit. Default categories meant that an EV or FF story where someone saw a relative naked went into I/T where it was hated for being a EV or FF story. Chapter stories that stared in EV were continued in I/T or GM.

Over the years I have written, and rewritten and added to and broken one story into two, or two into three. Lets say my friend wrote 4000 words, a "true" story about two people that was in EV for years. Then, when the pendulum swung, he and I worked together and rewrote it as a 5000 word I/T story, then we rewrote it again as a 6000 word group story, then a 6500 word romance.

He has sadly passed away, and the story came down again.

I can "fix" it (by removing comments in reference to NOT doing a now forbidden act that once had its own category here) so that I can resubmit it. But I didn't submit it originally.

I don't feel comfortable appropriating his work. On a single story I am okay with rewriting it again and saying in the preface it was started by ___ who has passed, that I joined in the effort after it was published and am responsible for the latest rewrites.

But I fear this will put his catalog here in danger. I don't have any legal rights to access his catalog here, seeing this happen someone else gave me access which is imperfect too. Publication was a deal between he and the publisher. I just hate the idea that a story he worked on will be lost. All we have here are our words.

And my desire is keeping the work up. In chapter stories where 10/11 chapters are still up its premature at best.

There is no "correct model." That other site: It went from "just tag it," to separating "vanilla" and "extreme." Then to categorizing and restricting the "extreme," to banning some and restricting other extreme, to putting group, lesbian and GM into the extreme category. There was anger and turmoil and the site went under.

This site publishes, and it has the right to decide what it publishes and even to decide to take items down without notice or reason given, I accept that. I don't ask for the site's cooperation in minding my stories or his. That the author "owns" the work is a given, but my question is more: "who is the author"?

A creative work, if I act alone and create it it's mine. If I act with another it's shared, by what? percentage of work? or is it like a joint bank account or auto that TODs (Transfers On Death)?

Disney took classic fairy tales, changed the characters names and argues copyright. Professors and businesses routinely take credit for and patent employees work. Does it matter that my goal is keeping a work in circulation?

Professionally, I belong to a group that archives everything we can get our hands on pertaining to our field of endeavor, so I am aware of the legalities in my jurisdiction concerning digital archives and digitizing print media, as well as the effort some businesses go to to try to limit our activities. I'm not asking if I CAN, but rather if I SHOULD.

I don't pretend to know the answers. I was just asking for opinions.