Who mentors you?

[Angeline]

When you need advice about something you want to write, whether it's a poem, short story, novel, whatever it is, who do you read? What do you read? Poems, prose, biography, interviews?

Who do you read when you have a vague idea (or no idea!), and you want to find a way to get started? Is there particular advice you've found useful?

I've been working on fiction so I've been wondering about that. I've read some interviews with John Irving that I find helpful. Here's one.. Here's another.

When I want inspiration for poetry, I often read lectures and other assorted ephemera by the late Ted Berrigan.

But I know I'm missing out on some good stuff, useful advice from writers I haven't read (or haven't read their thoughts on writing).

So anyway, who mentors you?

 

[Liar]

It's sometimes not about writers I haven't read, but writers I haven't read the right way. Re-reads can open your mind to some pretty interresting stuff that you missed the first time.

My perhaps most surprising re-read was of a bunch of Terry Pratchett novels last summer. I was lookng for light enteratinment, but closed the last book with some unexpected perspectives on the relationship between humor and respect and between triviality and importance in storytelling. It was there the first time around, but I'd been too busy giggling at the puns.

 

[Angeline]

It's sometimes not about writers I haven't read, but writers I haven't read the right way. Re-reads can open your mind to some pretty interresting stuff that you missed the first time.

My perhaps most surprising re-read was of a bunch of Terry Pratchett novels last summer. I was lookng for light enteratinment, but closed the last book with some unexpected perspectives on the relationship between humor and respect and between triviality and importance in storytelling. It was there the first time around, but I'd been too busy giggling at the puns.

Yes, I understand this and it's a good point. In one of those Irving interviews he mentions that he always writes the ending of his novels first, so that he knows from the first chapter what he's aiming toward. I then reread the novel in question (something I would've done anyway cause I love the way he writes), and I could see the craft of that first chapter, the ways in which it was pointed toward the conclusion.

 

[Tzara]

When you need advice about something you want to write, whether it's a poem, short story, novel, whatever it is, who do you read? What do you read? Poems, prose, biography, interviews?

Who do you read when you have a vague idea (or no idea!), and you want to find a way to get started? Is there particular advice you've found useful?

I've been working on fiction so I've been wondering about that. I've read some interviews with John Irving that I find helpful. Here's one.. Here's another.

When I want inspiration for poetry, I often read lectures and other assorted ephemera by the late Ted Berrigan.

But I know I'm missing out on some good stuff, useful advice from writers I haven't read (or haven't read their thoughts on writing).

So anyway, who mentors you?

One of the best books I've read about writing fiction is John Gardner's On Becoming a Novelist, not so much for any practical advice but rather to give one a sense of the work and commitment involved. It kind of scared me out of trying to write fiction, but I don't really have anything to say, story-wise, anyway.

I like to read genre fiction for aspects of style. Elmore Leonard for dialogue, for example. The opening sequence of James M. Cain's Mildred Pierce is exactly how I'd like to be able to write--it's very matter-of-fact about detail, but introduces the initial conflict very clearly without telling you about it. Or, in a quite different way, Camus' The Stranger, with its wonderfully terse language.

For poetry, I look at certain poems trying to understand how they work, especially how the rhythm works. Coleridge's "Kubla Khan" and Shelley's "Ozymandias," for example. The opening of "The Waste Land." Shakespeare in general, because his subtlety of rhythm in writing iambics is kind of awesome.

For general inspiration, I use all kinds of things: Wikipedia quite often, Ludwig Wittgenstein (whose philosophy often reads like poetry), comic books, paintings, Lit poems from other Lit poets. Kind of all over the place.

 

[Angeline]

One of the best books I've read about writing fiction is John Gardner's On Becoming a Novelist, not so much for any practical advice but rather to give one a sense of the work and commitment involved. It kind of scared me out of trying to write fiction, but I don't really have anything to say, story-wise, anyway.

I like to read genre fiction for aspects of style. Elmore Leonard for dialogue, for example. The opening sequence of James M. Cain's Mildred Pierce is exactly how I'd like to be able to write--it's very matter-of-fact about detail, but introduces the initial conflict very clearly without telling you about it. Or, in a quite different way, Camus' The Stranger, with its wonderfully terse language.

For poetry, I look at certain poems trying to understand how they work, especially how the rhythm works. Coleridge's "Kubla Khan" and Shelley's "Ozymandias," for example. The opening of "The Waste Land." Shakespeare in general, because his subtlety of rhythm in writing iambics is kind of awesome.

For general inspiration, I use all kinds of things: Wikipedia quite often, Ludwig Wittgenstein (whose philosophy often reads like poetry), comic books, paintings, Lit poems from other Lit poets. Kind of all over the place.

Thank you--I was interested in your thoughts on this. I've heard of Gardner's book. I may even have started (but not finished) it years ago. This is the same Gardner who wrote Grendl, right? I'm headed to Alibris to find a copy of it.

 

[Tzara]

Thank you--I was interested in your thoughts on this. I've heard of Gardner's book. I may even have started (but not finished) it years ago. This is the same Gardner who wrote Grendl, right? I'm headed to Alibris to find a copy of it.

Yes, the guy who wrote Grendel.

He was hugely famous in the 80s, but his reputation as a novelist fell through the floor after his death, though his students (for example, Raymond Carver and Charles Johnson) still speak of him like he was God.

Interesting guy.

Anyway. Good luck with that fiction thing. Poetry is hard. Fiction is worse. Way worse.

 

[The_Fool]

Read my shit. Does it sound like there is any mentoring going on there???

Silly girl.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

I almost always turn to other poet friends for advice, though I don't always take it. Here at lit I have been mentored by you, Ange, and Tzara and Patrick and other poets whose poems I have studied or comments I have googled. This forum is a really valuable resource, I think.

 

[The_Fool]

I almost always turn to other poet friends for advice, though I don't always take it. Here at lit I have been mentored by you, Ange, and Tzara and Patrick and other poets whose poems I have studied or comments I have googled. This forum is a really valuable resource, I think.

It is. I talk shit, but this place has been good for me as have the various and varying inmates.

 

[butters]

i used to talk things over, sometimes, with a poet named Billy. that was back when i was first showing my stuff online and thinking of subbing. he is, sadly, deceased and now it's mostly a matter of listening to what others here (or on other sites i used to visit) have to say ... thinking about it and using whatever feels right. reading the works of poets here, other contemporary writers, as well as my favourite old-schoolers such as Whitman, Byron, Shakespeare and so on, often help me look at things in a new light, or more fully appreciate the elegance our native language can so readily afford.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Initially, Robert Frost, Emily Dickenson, Seamus Heaney, Anthony Hecht, W. H. Auden, Delmore Schwartz, and Anne Sexton.

In all honesty, during the almost two years since I became a member of Literotica, it has been the two dozen or so regular contributors to these threads. I had never previously thought so much about the craft of poetry, however much the ideas for subject matter were there, since I discovered this website. Without exaggeration, the above mentioned notables pale by comparison.

Had I formally studied poetry, I'm sure there would have been some "live" mentors, but that was not the case.

 

[Angeline]

Thank you all for your responses, my dear poets. I hope more of you lurkers (you know who you are!) will consider this question, too (cough...UYS...Charley H....Lauren...cough...others....ahem).

I've always been lucky to get good advice about poetry, some of it from folks who've posted in this thread. Some, like your friend Billy, Chip, who are no longer with us, people like smithpeter and Rybka. smithpeter would tell me to shut up and write.

But now I'm thinking about fiction, specifically about trying to plot out a novel. I know fiction is hard, just from the few short stories I've written. Unlike poetry, which usually comes to me in a burst that I then edit, prose is time-consuming and you need to make sense, be literate and, worst of all, sustain it.

For those of you who've written novels or novellas, I wonder how much of the plot do you know in advance? How much do you know about your characters when you're planning (as opposed to writing). Do you do a lot of research, and if so how? The novel that I'm currently planning will take place (well lots of it) in a women's detention center. I've never been to jail (lol I'm the ultimate good girl: I never even had detention in school or turned in homework late, so you get the picture), but I need to be accurate in my details, so I expect I'll need to do lots of research, which I've already begun. I haven't decided yet, but I don't think the novel will take place in the now, most likely in the 1930s or 40s.

I'm going to need advice and support. Feel free to offer it. And thanks again.

 

[Tzara]

But now I'm thinking about fiction, specifically about trying to plot out a novel. I know fiction is hard, just from the few short stories I've written. Unlike poetry, which usually comes to me in a burst that I then edit, prose is time-consuming and you need to make sense, be literate and, worst of all, sustain it.

For those of you who've written novels or novellas, I wonder how much of the plot do you know in advance? How much do you know about your characters when you're planning (as opposed to writing). Do you do a lot of research, and if so how? The novel that I'm currently planning will take place (well lots of it) in a women's detention center. I've never been to jail (lol I'm the ultimate good girl: I never even had detention in school or turned in homework late, so you get the picture), but I need to be accurate in my details, so I expect I'll need to do lots of research, which I've already begun. I haven't decided yet, but I don't think the novel will take place in the now, most likely in the 1930s or 40s.

I'm going to need advice and support. Feel free to offer it. And thanks again.

As I said earlier, I dropped trying to write fiction. Too hard. Too sustained, which for me is even worse.

But let me recommend another book or two: The Weekend Novelist by Robert J. Ray, specifically. There are several variations on this, The Weekend Novelist Writes a Mystery, The Weekend Novelist Re-Writes the Novel, and there are the old and new versions of the original book (I have the original and have been told the revision isn't as good, but your take may vary.

Bob Ray taught in the University of Washington extension writing program for several years, and published a number of mystery novels. By his own admission, he isn't Philip Roth or Jonathan Franzen, but what his book offers is a structure for how to write a novel. Do this, do this, do this, and you end up with a manuscript. Whether it's any good or not is, of course, your problem.

He also has a website: www.weekendnovelist.com.

The prison stuff I can't help you with. You'll, as you say, need to do a lot of research. I would suggest you read some James M. Cain, though, to get a feel for the era (I'm assuming you're writing about crime, since your setting is largely in a detention center). If you want a kind of hard-boiled prose effect, look at The Postman Always Rings Twice, Double Indemnity, Serenade, even Mildred Pierce, though that isn't really a crime novel. Watch a lot of noir movies.

Aw, hell. I don't know anything, of course, but wish you luck. I always wanted to write novels, not poems, but don't have the stick-to-it-ness (let alone the inspiration or talent) to write fiction.

You go girl.

 

[Angeline]

As I said earlier, I dropped trying to write fiction. Too hard. Too sustained, which for me is even worse.

But let me recommend another book or two: The Weekend Novelist by Robert J. Ray, specifically. There are several variations on this, The Weekend Novelist Writes a Mystery, The Weekend Novelist Re-Writes the Novel, and there are the old and new versions of the original book (I have the original and have been told the revision isn't as good, but your take may vary.

Bob Ray taught in the University of Washington extension writing program for several years, and published a number of mystery novels. By his own admission, he isn't Philip Roth or Jonathan Franzen, but what his book offers is a structure for how to write a novel. Do this, do this, do this, and you end up with a manuscript. Whether it's any good or not is, of course, your problem.

He also has a website: www.weekendnovelist.com.

The prison stuff I can't help you with. You'll, as you say, need to do a lot of research. I would suggest you read some James M. Cain, though, to get a feel for the era (I'm assuming you're writing about crime, since your setting is largely in a detention center). If you want a kind of hard-boiled prose effect, look at The Postman Always Rings Twice, Double Indemnity, Serenade, even Mildred Pierce, though that isn't really a crime novel. Watch a lot of noir movies.

Aw, hell. I don't know anything, of course, but wish you luck. I always wanted to write novels, not poems, but don't have the stick-to-it-ness (let alone the inspiration or talent) to write fiction.

You go girl.

Many thanks, Tzara. Your advice is always valuable, and I'm especially interested in the Weekend Novelist books you recommend. The novel is actually about mother-daughter relationships, biological and non, although crime will obviously play a role but more in terms of plot than theme. As you know I'm a big fan of Dickens (and his acolytes, like Irving), so the idea of of putting a lot of the action in as unlikely a setting as a prison appeals to me. And you know so many babies are born to prisoners and (at least in the early to mid 20th c. women kept their babies with them until they were ready to start school), so it seems like a ripe subject to explore.

Otoh if this attempt goes anything like my poems, the ideas I plan will turn into something totally different once I actually start writing. We'll see.

 

[Tzara]

I almost always turn to other poet friends for advice, though I don't always take it. Here at lit I have been mentored by you, Ange, and Tzara and Patrick and other poets whose poems I have studied or comments I have googled. This forum is a really valuable resource, I think.

Yes, well, "mentor" implies active instruction ("a wise and trusted counselor or teacher," per dictionary.com) rather than some things you've read that helped.

Given that, I'd say for here, Pat C. kind of mentored me. He was certainly helpful to me, but more than just being helpful, he showed me a lot about poetry, in a kind of teacher-like way. (Unsurprising, that, as he is a teacher.)

Most of the help I've gotten has been what I might term "collegial support." Comments from colleagues, even if those colleagues were/are much more skilled than me. Fly, Sara, and 1201 were especially helpful early on, though none of them are here anymore. All of you are helpful, continue to be helpful.

Group hug.

And, my dear Dora, as I have said before--you are colleague, not "mentee" (an awful IBMism that I do not have to use any more, saints be praised). You write better'n I do, so what the hell am I supposed to be mentoring you on?

Oh, oh, time's up.

Pax.

 

[Liar]

For those of you who've written novels or novellas, I wonder how much of the plot do you know in advance? How much do you know about your characters when you're planning (as opposed to writing).

Painstakingly much. I've got plots and sub-plots, charachter development arcs and milestones, timing, settings, themes and assorted key phrases in my head long before I sit down and start to type.

If I don't, I'll end up with broken stories. Characters that act in ways that doesn't make sense, contrived deus ex machina solutions to plot gaps, blaring contradictions and loose ends that pokes you in the eye.

It's nothing I recommend for people in general. But for a control freak like me, it's the only way to work.

Research though, is overrated, unless you are aiming for extreme real life ties, historical accuracy and all that. I'm happy as long as the text universe I create makes sense within the paper frame. It doesn't have to completely match the outer world. The story is made up, who cares about the details as long as they're not totally alien?

 

[Angeline]

Painstakingly much. I've got plots and sub-plots, charachter development arcs and milestones, timing, settings, themes and assorted key phrases in my head long before I sit down and start to type.

If I don't, I'll end up with broken stories. Characters that act in ways that doesn't make sense, contrived deus ex machina solutions to plot gaps, blaring contradictions and loose ends that pokes you in the eye.

It's nothing I recommend for people in general. But for a control freak like me, it's the only way to work.

Research though, is overrated, unless you are aiming for extreme real life ties, historical accuracy and all that. I'm happy as long as the text universe I create makes sense within the paper frame. It doesn't have to completely match the outer world. The story is made up, who cares about the details as long as they're not totally alien?

I think I've got the control freak part down pat already, so that should be helpful.

You're confirming a lot of what I've been thinking: that I need to begin with both some research (cause the prison stuff needs to sound authentic, especially if it's set in a historical time) and detailed character descriptions. I feel like the more I know about my main characters, the better I'll know how'd they'd respond in various circumstances. Minor characters and subplots will also, I'm hoping, come from really knowing my main characters.

I know what you mean about "broken stories." I read a lot of fiction, some "good," but a lot "trashy" too. And what I've noticed without fail in the trashy novels, even good trashy novels (by like John Grisham, for example) is that the story is broken here and there with deux ex machina effects, characters that disappear or suddenly become unimportant, pieces of the plot that are never finished or explained.

And I hadn't thought about plotting out the milestones in advance, but that makes perfect sense to me now that you mention it. And I'm pretty sure that I'll follow Irving's example of writing the ending first and then the first chapter so I have a better idea of where I'm aiming.

All this stuff that you plan before you write the actual story, you write that out, too, yes? (I can't imagine not writing it--I'm too unorganized otherwise.)

Any good websites you'd recommend?

 

[greenmountaineer]

Thank you all for your responses, my dear poets...

But now I'm thinking about fiction...

The novel that I'm currently planning will take place (well lots of it) in a women's detention center. I've never been to jail (lol I'm the ultimate good girl: I never even had detention in school or turned in homework late, so you get the picture), but I need to be accurate in my details, so I expect I'll need to do lots of research, which I've already begun. I haven't decided yet, but I don't think the novel will take place in the now, most likely in the 1930s or 40s.

I'm going to need advice and support. Feel free to offer it. And thanks again.

I spent 38 years working in the field of corrections. I've been in just about every kind of prison you can imagine in many states throughout the country, including women's prisons. I also taught some college courses in criminal justice, so I know a little something about the history of prisons also. If you need to reality check anything, just e-mail me.

 

[normal jean]

used to be you

but I don't write anymore so it's a moot point

hope you're all doing well. miss ya's

 

[PandoraGlitters]

And, my dear Dora, as I have said before--you are colleague, not "mentee" (an awful IBMism that I do not have to use any more, saints be praised). You write better'n I do, so what the hell am I supposed to be mentoring you on?

Oh, oh, time's up.

Pax.

Your comments on my eroded sonnet and on other pieces where I asked for help were really insightful. Then there was the help identifying places to submit. But colleague works, too. Pat C. nudged me about abstractions and you, in your satire, have nudged me, too (to avoid using "like" so much for example ) so thanks.

Ange, good luck with your research! I hope to read your novel one day.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

used to be you

but I don't write anymore so it's a moot point

hope you're all doing well. miss ya's

Well get your pen out, missy! Hope you are doing well, too.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

You write better'n I do, so what the hell am I supposed to be mentoring you on?

PS. This is so not true. But thanks. Pax backatcha.

 

[normal jean]

Well get your pen out, missy! Hope you are doing well, too.

Thank you Dora!! I think I will do just that. You are an angel for the encouraging words.

 

[normal jean]

Angeline-

Remember that true story I told you about the woman who was an abused wife and found herself in jail for a month accused of accessory to murder when all she did was turn in a gun given to her by a friend and she was afraid to tell her husband where it came from so she lied to avoid being beaten? (sorry for the run on sentence)

When I was in rehab ten years ago, I told my counselor that I was planning on writing and she said, write what you know.

I wish you luck and with your fantastic imagination, you might pull it off, but I don't see how you could "get" the feelings of abandonment and dread that comes with being locked away from family, young babies, it is the most awful thing ever, especially when the charges are bogus and you are facing possibly 20 years of hell....and eventually having the charges dismissed doesn't make things better.

I will look forward to reading it.

 

[butters]

some people have enough imagination, and empathy, to 'get' situations they have never personally experienced. just as well, since many novelists depend upon being able to create a virtual reality using material they've not lived through. it is enough that they convince the reader.