Who is the middle class in America?

[RJMasters]

How do you, or by what standards do you use to determine who is poor, who is middle class, and who is rich in America?

Basically how do you define each class?

Please select an option form the poll above that best describes the income average of the middle class and then give me your thoughts why you picked it and if any other factors come into play besides income.

Thanks

 

[graceanne]

I picked 30,000 to 50,000. But that might be a matter of perspective, since we're at a bit over 20,000 right now. I'd say that, probably, someone who makes six figured would consider between 0 and 75,000 would be poor. *shrugs*

 

[FFOTS4Life]

How do you, or by what standards do you use to determine who is poor, who is middle class, and who is rich in America?

Basically how do you define each class?

Please select an option form the poll above that best describes the income average of the middle class and then give me your thoughts why you picked it and if any other factors come into play besides income.

Thanks

I'm in that 0-30,000 range but I wouldn't consider myself poor...even though others might.

I live in a house owned by mother (she has 7 different properties) so I know that has a great deal to do with it because I have no house payment or rent to pay. However I do pay all of the utilities, car payments, insurance, etc.

I have a pretty standard cost of living...I don't have a lot of money to spend on extras...but I have everything I need.

To me being poor is when you can't provide the must haves...a roof over your head, food in your belly, and clothes on your back - but that is just my opinion....

Then again being poor is subjective...you can have nothing and still be the happiest person in the world...and for many that makes you rich.

 

[RJMasters]

I picked 30,000 to 50,000. But that might be a matter of perspective, since we're at a bit over 20,000 right now. I'd say that, probably, someone who makes six figured would consider between 0 and 75,000 would be poor. *shrugs*

Hey Grace.

Thanks for your answer. I will weigh after more people answer as I have some thoughts about this. Like you, from about age 20 - 40 our family made just a little more than 20k. Now that I graduated and I am working and my wife is working too, we manage to make it into the 50-75 range. For me this is what I consider middle class, but I do think it is interesting that both me and my wife have college degrees, and we are still not able to rise above this income level.

Makes me wonder about a lot of things and makes me question, just who is the middle class? Who is conisdered poor? and who is considered rich?

In the days we made just above 20k I would definately say we hurting and barely getting by. With little to no chance of opportunity to make more. Now after most of my life is gone, we are just barely breaking even.

I have about 20 years to pull a rabbit out of my hat, hit the lottery or something to prepare for retirement. Right now a huge life insurance policy looks like the only way one of us is going to have some cash to live on when the other passes. Are we having fun yet? geez I depressed myself lol.

 

[graceanne]

Hey Grace.

Thanks for your answer. I will weigh after more people answer as I have some thoughts about this. Like you, from about age 20 - 40 our family made just a little more than 20k. Now that I graduated and I am working and my wife is working too, we manage to make it into the 50-75 range. For me this is what I consider middle class, but I do think it is interesting that both me and my wife have college degrees, and we are still not able to rise above this income level.

Makes me wonder about a lot of things and makes me question, just who is the middle class? Who is conisdered poor? and who is considered rich?

In the days we made just above 20k I would definately say we hurting and barely getting by. With little to no chance of opportunity to make more. Now after most of my life is gone, we are just barely breaking even.

I have about 20 years to pull a rabbit out of my hat, hit the lottery or something to prepare for retirement. Right now a huge life insurance policy looks like the only way one of us is going to have some cash to live on when the other passes. Are we having fun yet? geez I depressed myself lol.

Yeah, I hear that. And in our case, I don't have life insurance - no life insurance company will cover me. lol Now how's that for depressing?

But we don't know what we're going to do about our 'retirement' either.

 

[RJMasters]

To me being poor is when you can provide the must haves...a roof over your head, food in your belly, and clothes on your back - but that is just my opinion....

Then again being poor is subjective...you can have nothing and still be the happiest person in the world...and for many that makes you rich.

Well said, and in truth I was hoping that some of this would come out in the discussion and would not be just based upon the income ranges. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Homburg]

Middle class = a step or two above me on the income range

Retirement = work til I fall over dead

I don't even have a huge insurance policy. Just a moderate one. Whee.

 

[BiBunny]

I don't think you can really classify it in terms of numbers, but I could be wrong. Like me...I'm poor folks, but it won't last forever. Almost all students are poor.

My father makes more money as a long-distance truck driver than many people who have a college degree, even if folks do look down on him for being "blue-collar." Between his income and my mother's, they make close to six figures a year. But due to Mother's penchant for spending money three times before they ever get it, they're more financially strapped than most people who make half what Daddy does. *Shrug*

Is it a matter of bad decisions? Of course. Doesn't really change their situation, though. They're poor as I am, just in different ways.

Holy shit, that was some pseudo-philosophical bullshit. It must be past my bedtime....

 

[RJMasters]

I don't think you can really classify it in terms of numbers, but I could be wrong. Like me...I'm poor folks, but it won't last forever. Almost all students are poor.

My father makes more money as a long-distance truck driver than many people who have a college degree, even if folks do look down on him for being "blue-collar." Between his income and my mother's, they make close to six figures a year. But due to Mother's penchant for spending money three times before they ever get it, they're more financially strapped than most people who make half what Daddy does. *Shrug*

Is it a matter of bad decisions? Of course. Doesn't really change their situation, though. They're poor as I am, just in different ways.

Holy shit, that was some pseudo-philosophical bullshit. It must be past my bedtime....

Thanks for jumping in BB. I agree that its not just a number thing which is in part why I started the poll in hopes that a dsicussion would ensue.

 

[RJMasters]

Retirement = work til I fall over dead

lol Thaks for the input Hornburg. I see we both signed up for the same retirement program.

 

[the captians wench]

Also has to do with the number in your family.

I'm a family of one atm, and I'm at the high end of the 0-30k range and i live very well I think.

My brother is in the next bracket (with combat pay and a few other things he's in the high end) and has a family of 5 and they don't live as well as I do...of course my sister in law shops like no one I've ever met, so that has a lot to do with it.

My mom raised a family of 4 on my income and while we never went to bed hungry, we were wanting.

3 years ago when my ex and I were first married I read that the average 2 income house hold was bringing in around 60k a year.Dunno if that still holds true, or even if it did now, but that's what I've always considered middle class becuase the average of something is the middle. But being in the middle class doesn't nessisarily mean you live well or poor for that matter, it just means you make about what every one else does.

 

[minx1]

I'm in that 0-30,000 range but I wouldn't consider myself poor...even though others might.

I live in a house owned by mother (she has 7 different properties) so I know that has a great deal to do with it because I have no house payment or rent to pay. However I do pay all of the utilities, car payments, insurance, etc.

I have a pretty standard cost of living...I don't have a lot of money to spend on extras...but I have everything I need.

To me being poor is when you can't provide the must haves...a roof over your head, food in your belly, and clothes on your back - but that is just my opinion....

Also has to do with the number in your family.

I'm a family of one atm, and I'm at the high end of the 0-30k range and i live very well I think.

My brother is in the next bracket (with combat pay and a few other things he's in the high end) and has a family of 5 and they don't live as well as I do...of course my sister in law shops like no one I've ever met, so that has a lot to do with it.

My mom raised a family of 4 on my income and while we never went to bed hungry, we were wanting.

Well I'm not American as you know, but I agree with the comments made above.
I guess you have to agree on the definition of poverty as the first step. To me, there are the working poor......who don't earn a living wage, then possibly the working class....those who do earn a living wage and can be economically self sufficent; but make do rather than live comfortably.
Personally I wouldn't call those middle class. I think middle class (well certainly in the UK) suggests a comfortable lifestyle; the ''upwardly mobile'', disposable income, luxury items, usually educated (because of access to and affordability of education) and a degree of choice; whether than be on holidays or the ability to change career relatively easily.

ETA: good to see you RJ

 

[ownedsubgal]

i did not respond to the poll as i really don't think of middle class or any other economic status in terms of numbers. imo it depends on several factors...primarily the region in which you live. if you live in an area with a very high cost of living..say NYC..then it's possible you could be pulling down six figures and still clinging on to lower middle class status. if you live in a more rural area, where a family of 3 can live comfortably on a combined income of
40k, it's a whole different story.

so i suppose i'd define middle class as steadily having the income required to meet all basic needs (groceries, gas, mortgage/rent, utilities), plus the occasional luxury, like a yearly family vacation or a weekly night out a good restaurant.

poor i'd define as not having the income necessary to steadily meet basic needs. like when you have to regularly choose between paying the rent and buying food or paying for heat. when every month the dollars always come up short, even with the best budgeting.

poverty-stricken i'd define as almost no income, where it would be impossible for you to survive month to month without regular financial (i.e. gov't issued) assistance, and even with that it is only basic survival, and you still must go without some necessities.

"rich" i'd define as living a life of complete economic comfort...all basic necessities are taken care of with ease, minor luxuries are the norm (like high-priced clothing, jewelry, cars, etc.), and major luxuries (like a nice vacation home, private schooling, etc.) are possible.

Daddy and i are middle class. the cost of living in our area is high, fancy houses around us foreclose on a weekly basis. to be middle class as i've defined it above takes some doing here. but we're okay. we don't have to worry whether or not bills will be paid, and we're able to get in plenty of minor luxuries, like hitting the nightclubs, eating out, the occasional trip/vacay. Daddy is one of those types to have a 2 yr, 5 yr, 10 yr plan though...and i know that personally he will not really feel economically happy and comfortable until we are upper middle class or perhaps a bit beyond.

 

[intothewoods]

i did not respond to the poll as i really don't think of middle class or any other economic status in terms of numbers. imo it depends on several factors...primarily the region in which you live. if you live in an area with a very high cost of living..say NYC..then it's possible you could be pulling down six figures and still clinging on to lower middle class status. if you live in a more rural area, where a family of 3 can live comfortably on a combined income of
40k, it's a whole different story.

so i suppose i'd define middle class as steadily having the income required to meet all basic needs (groceries, gas, mortgage/rent, utilities), plus the occasional luxury, like a yearly family vacation or a weekly night out a good restaurant.

poor i'd define as not having the income necessary to steadily meet basic needs. like when you have to regularly choose between paying the rent and buying food or paying for heat. when every month the dollars always come up short, even with the best budgeting.

poverty-stricken i'd define as almost no income, where it would be impossible for you to survive month to month without regular financial (i.e. gov't issued) assistance, and even with that it is only basic survival, and you still must go without some necessities.

"rich" i'd define as living a life of complete economic comfort...all basic necessities are taken care of with ease, minor luxuries are the norm (like high-priced clothing, jewelry, cars, etc.), and major luxuries (like a nice vacation home, private schooling, etc.) are possible.

Yeah, this all makes a lot more sense to me that strict numbers. 40k can get you a whole lot farther in some places than others, so it's just to hard to pin it down in those terms.

 

[WriterDom]

Well you have to look at where you live as well. The medium price of a home here is around $80,000. In Atlanta it's $180,000.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

Well you have to look at where you live as well. The medium price of a home here is around $80,000. In Atlanta it's $180,000.

Shoot. Here it's $400,000.

In order to afford it someone or a couple would have to make around $80,000 a year. So I guess technically you could say around here $80,000 would be middle class.

There is also what some people call lower middle class, middle class, and upper middle class.

 

[Homburg]

lol Thaks for the input Hornburg. I see we both signed up for the same retirement program.

Yup, fortunately my job is one that I can still work in until I'm too old to drive a car, so I am not in huge danger. I just wish I made more money at it =P

--

Also has to do with the number in your family.

This is very true. When viv and I first got married, I made much less than I do now and we lived comfortably. Four kids later? Not comfortable.

I agree, generally, that money on its' own has nothing to do with middle class. It is somewhat worthwhile to discuss it in those terms though, so long as you assume a generic midline cost of living. What I see as middle class means middle class for my area, and would very much not be applicable where osg lives.

Oddly, I've made the sort of coin that I see as middle class. Made better than it for a short period of time. It was quite nice, and allowed me to put away some coin for a rainy day. Unfortunately, my life is feast or famine, and the rainy day lasted eight months, so that lovely chunk of money dissappeared. Still, it was nice while it lasted.

I still want my mortgage bailout. What does AIG have that I don't? Oh, yeah, bad-ass K-Street lobbyists with political connections...

(Fun fact: AIG is one of the companies that I write for on occassion, and the fuckers are CONSTANTLY late paying their invoices.)

--

House price is a weird metric given how the market is right now. In my area, which is a heavy military area with a fairly low cost of living, all of the nex construction homes are priced outside of what most people make. The average is $300k-500k, and very few people here are going to have the coin that is needed for such a house. And, frankly, the houses aren't worth it. We just went through an idotic developement expansion and the devs are pricing themselve sout of business as a result.

But, hey, my townhouse has nearly nearly doubled in (city) assessed since I bought it. I should be able to sell it and make a profit right? Oh, no, because the city assessments are priced by throwing a dart at a board marked with how much they want you to pay, not how much the property is actually worth.

 

[Netzach]

I put over 75 K.

30 is MEDIAN so anything under is definitely working class/poor. I think it's amazing that there's a value judgement on poverty so strong that someone can say "I'm middle class"

There's something called "working class" or "blue collar" or "working poor" which is a buffer zone encompassing "more than publicly assisted and less than middle class." Poor, poverty, POOR rather than broke as Bunny said, is the poor that will not change/cannot change. If you have an education it's an entitlement and a benefit, but it's not magically transforming you into middle class. That is how perfectly sane people get into insane debt - be as poor as you are is my advice, and work hard to not be if you can. But BE WHAT YOU ARE and approach people purporting to help you as you are now and with the people who are like you, not the people you'd like to be like.

I do think this is determined purely numerically. Can you have a car, stay in a safe place, have and feed kids, and not have to worry about your dentistry? Your kids' dentistry?

That WILL vary from region to region, but it's never really going to be a LOT less than 75 K because dentists don't work for 40 grand a year anywhere unless they're volunteers of some kind most of the time. A house in a safe neighborhood isn't going to be a lot less than 150 ANYWHERE. A car is not going to cost half what it does in Atlanta as it does in Minneapolis.

If you just want to pretend you can buy a house, drive a decent car, and get your teeth done as soon as you've paid off these other 65 things, because by God, you're not a lazy loser, that doesn't make you middle class. The ability to do so does.

When you make 30K you can't imagine feeling like people making 90-100 K are in any kind of plight, but they're not wealthy. You don't crack wealthy until you've broken 2 mil maybe.

If you make 75K and are NOT in debt (and most people are) then maybe you can do this in most metros, just barely take care of your own shit.

I AM lower middle class. I WAS working class. I went to HIGH SCHOOL with the rich and COLLEGE with mostly MIDDLE CLASS people, and other poor/working class in any statistically frequent numbers for the first time I ever met both a lot.

So culturally I'm a very strange mix of values and priorities, but I know that in the end whether you can keep your dentist appointments and whether you can read Homer in the Greek are not measures of your human worth. It's absurd to assign so much magic to numbers but we do.

 

[Netzach]

Rich doesn't mean you can have a nice vacation once in a while. Rich means you never have to cancel or change your bi yearly vacation because of money, EVER.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Rich doesn't mean you can have a nice vacation once in a while. Rich means you never have to cancel or change your bi yearly vacation because of money, EVER.

imo being able to take a nice vacation every once in a while makes you middle class. rich would be being able to take a nice vacation whenever you please. but i also don't believe that "rich" necessarily means that you living in the lap of luxury, spending money like water. most of the rich people i know are insanely cheap, and tend to spend most of their money where it can't be seen.

my mother is one of these...her net worth (from my Dad's death and her own savings) is somewhere between 2 and 3 mil, and she lives in a rural area where a family of 3 pulling down 30K will live pretty darn comfortably. i'd guess she earns about 60K yearly, a tremendous amount for that area. and she likes to give the impression to anyone paying attention that she's a a poor widow just barely making ends meet...living in plain house, wearing the same clothes for 10 yrs at a time, kitchen cupboards bare and dusty. but i know what she has and spends in stocks and jewels, all hidden and tucked away for a rainy day. ime only the ridiculously wealthy (the Oprahs and McCains of the world) spend money like water...the rich tend to hold on to it desperately like the last drop of water in a desert.

 

[Netzach]

imo being able to take a nice vacation every once in a while makes you middle class. rich would be being able to take a nice vacation whenever you please. but i also don't believe that "rich" necessarily means that you living in the lap of luxury, spending money like water. most of the rich people i know are insanely cheap, and tend to spend most of their money where it can't be seen.

my mother is one of these...her net worth (from my Dad's death and her own savings) is somewhere between 2 and 3 mil, and she lives in a rural area where a family of 3 pulling down 30K will live pretty darn comfortably. i'd guess she earns about 60K yearly, a tremendous amount for that area. and she likes to give the impression to anyone paying attention that she's a a poor widow just barely making ends meet...living in plain house, wearing the same clothes for 10 yrs at a time, kitchen cupboards bare and dusty. but i know what she has and spends in stocks and jewels, all hidden and tucked away for a rainy day. ime only the ridiculously wealthy (the Oprahs and McCains of the world) spend money like water...the rich tend to hold on to it desperately like the last drop of water in a desert.

Often. Not always. Some and not others.

I knew people who definitely were dressed modestly and whose apartments weren't being redone like some kind of reality show gone insane, but the car in the 800 a mo. parking space was a Benz and the kids got BMW's to go off to college in.

Yes, people with a lot of money GENERALLY have better habits in terms of hanging onto it. But most aren't at the extremes of behavior.

 

[midwestyankee]

RJ, your poll ranges are simply too narrow for a considered response. I could see two or three of your ranges being within the larger range that I would consider "middle class."

Geography plays a big role in the effectiveness of a given income level so our perceptions of what constitutes middle class will certainly vary according to where we're located. Here in suburban Chicago the media home price is close to $400,000 and it's tough to find even a small starter home for much less than $300,000. Our cars cost as much as anyone else's do, but we pay slightly over 10% now in sales taxes. This all skews our perceptions, as others have already said.

Recently my wife was telling me that she'd heard an ad for a new condo building in downtown Chicago where the lowest priced units are selling for $1.4 million. She was having a hard time figuring out where people could make enough money to be able to support such a home. I told her that I'd start looking for one of those jobs this week. I guess that describes whatever you want to call the group above us: they can buy homes that cost 7 figures even as the mortgage market dives into the crapper.

 

[JMohegan]

I see class in American society as an access to power & privilege thing. It's not necessarily tied to income, or even wealth.

If your father and grandfather were four star Admirals, you'll have an enormous advantage over other Americans when applying to an elite institution such as the U.S. Naval Academy. And you'll be able to graduate and move on to a military career with similar advantages, even if you're a discipline problem and a student ranking 894th out of 899.

Access to the ladder of success and/or the fruits of our society, over & above the norm for most hard working Americans. That's upper class.

And what about those people on the bottom? I'd say they are significantly disadvantaged in the access department, relative to the American norm.

I think it's interesting that people typically talk about upper class, middle class, and poor people. No one really wants to call them "lower class" - with good reason. It sounds so, well, un-American. As if we were adhering to some sort of antediluvian caste system or something! So we shift the phraseology when we talk about them, and use a term that frequently implies that their plight is their fault.

This is America, don't you know. The land where any hard working person - anybody, anywhere - can get ahead. They just have to want it enough.

 

[EmpressFi]

I agree that it depends on where you live. Our combined salaries put us in a pretty good bracket for people in their mid-30's. When we lived in NJ, we were living paycheck to paycheck as the cost of living there is ridiculous. Here in NE Ohio, it's like we were given a 20% raise, but until our house sells, it still feels like we're living in NJ

 

[midwestyankee]

I see class in American society as an access to power & privilege thing. It's not necessarily tied to income, or even wealth.

If your father and grandfather were four star Admirals, you'll have an enormous advantage over other Americans when applying to an elite institution such as the U.S. Naval Academy. And you'll be able to graduate and move on to a military career with similar advantages, even if you're a discipline problem and a student ranking 894th out of 899.

Access to the ladder of success and/or the fruits of our society, over & above the norm for most hard working Americans. That's upper class.

And what about those people on the bottom? I'd say they are significantly disadvantaged in the access department, relative to the American norm.

I think it's interesting that people typically talk about upper class, middle class, and poor people. No one really wants to call them "lower class" - with good reason. It sounds so, well, un-American. As if we were adhering to some sort of antediluvian caste system or something! So we shift the phraseology when we talk about them, and use a term that frequently implies that their plight is their fault.

This is America, don't you know. The land where any hard working person - anybody, anywhere - can get ahead. They just have to want it enough.

Good points, as always, JM. I truly agree with your assessment about access being much of the difference. That said, the poll was framed in terms of current income and I responded accordingly. So did a certain Naval Academy graduate (with a record not unlike your example, come to think of it) when he said that he figured the difference between middle class and the above class was "when you're making $5 million a year."