Which one?

[Senna Jawa]

Here are two variations. Which one do you like (more or) less?

 

[anonamouse]

Here are two variations. Which one do you like (more or) less?

They are both a little too short, no story, not enough ambiguity for a haiku effect.
You did ask. Version 1 at least has the look. Then, again I was not a big fan of Station at the Metro, petals on a wet black bough
Good to see your writing again, BTW, I am 1201. You can tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Senna Jawa]

They are both a little too short, no story, not enough ambiguity for a haiku effect.
You did ask. Version 1 at least has the look. Then, again I was not a big fan of Station at the Metro, petals on a wet black bough
Good to see your writing again, BTW, I am 1201. You can tell me I'm wrong.

You are wrong.

 

[TheRainMan]

i agree with 1201's incorrectness.

 

[wildsweetone]

I prefer Version 1.

Version 2 tells me too much.

Version 1 gives me a surprise by allowing my mind to make the connection and giving me a third image.

 

[Liar]

From the perspective of English prosodics, #1.

I find that the imagery in them are quite equal. The added element of the eyes as a subject in #2 didn't add anything that wasn't inferred when reading #1 anyway.

So, #1 for me.

 

[Cub4ucme]

Rip em up and start over.


No meat worth cutting in either one.


Like the idea of "windowless" but it dropped off the table
when the end result is snow. So what?

You only have a few lines to work with.
Initially all Haiku was written about nature.
Of course, it has evolved (like everything else) over time.

First into a ritual for courtship, then into anything
a poet chose for subject matter.


What hasn't changed is the need to write three lines
that would seem unconnected if separated
but, when brought together in proper sequence
becomes much more than the space they keep.

They aren't bad poems, in the context of what's out there
to compare them to.

I just think if you use the same idea and worked a bit harder
you could increase the integrity and impact substantially.


best,
andy

 

[Cub4ucme]

PS In the other thread, Andy, you're bullshitting your head off. <<<<<


Please be more specific.

What part of my post is bullshit.

If you can make it stand up, I'll be mpre than happy to apologize
and be glad to have learned something myself.


thanks,
andy

 

[MyNecroticSnail]

You are wrong.

OK, knowing him as I do, the implication was why. We have discussed at great length the mind's tendency to fill in details and assign meaning. "cheap profundity", as comrade 1201 would say.
If I say:

Fuck​

Does this mean
A. I am calling you one
B. I agree with you
C. I disagree with you
D. I am interested
E. Just an exclamation

It is none of the above, just an simple illustration of that effect. In reading your two variations, one is supposed to get something, what is this "moment", and how are we to arrive at it?

And in response to Andy, the haiku form does not translate well into English. Written using chinese characters it relies on the stories behind those characters.* Spoken it relies on sound alikes, (puns, onomatopoeia).The "aha effect" is multilevel. It also relies on a common set of cultural references - it is a popular form of programming geeks for that reason.

*You can test this if you have chinese friends, take any compound character and ask them why the componets are put together to get this new meaning.

Also knowing 1201, he'll probably show up 6 months from now expecting more of an answer than you are wrong.

 

[MyNecroticSnail]

I'm sorry Senna did I say something to upset you?
Just what am supposed to see? What am I missing?

all night

windowless office

in the morning

snow outdoors
or

eyes hovered over the keyboard all night

blinked at the snow outdoors in the morning

These don't have the sound effect nor the comparison in:

The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
Petals on a wet, black bough.

Or is it just plain wrong to question you? All I am getting from these are a feeling of emptiness, a cry that you are running dry, which I could get from a blank piece of paper. If there is some hidden craft or art to this, show it.

Thank you
MNS
Now what level do YOU want to keep this on, 1201 had a lot of respect for you, as do I, or is respect only given or accepted only under conditions of blind acceptance?

 

[Senna Jawa]

more complete commentary later

wildsweetone & Liar, in the presence of the version 1, version 2 indeed feels overloaded. I'd like to qualify this statement though. If you read version 2 only then most likely you wouldn't feel that it is so. Furthermore, according to the Jonathan Rowe Law, if you read version 1 a week after reading version 2 than the odds are that you would prefer version 2.

In fact, version 2 is still quite simple and economic. Observe for instance that there is no "I" or "s/he" ... There are only eyes. I'll write more in separate threads.

***

1201 (+TheRainman), Cub4ucme and MNS, you raised several points, not necessarily directly related to my poems (the 2 versions), thus I feel like addressing those more general issues first, in separate threads. Then I'll come back here to address the issues specific to this thread. At this moment let me just repeat that you are wrong about my poem (about the two versions).

Regards,

Senna Jawa

PS. MNS, you have put effort into formatting your comment, you have red, bold and italic fonts. But when it came to my poems, you have presented them sloppily.

 

[Cub4ucme]

The defense of throw away poetry seems senseless.


Granted, how poetry is received is relative and subjective.

That said, they wouldn't cut the mustard in any critical environment.

There's just no bang for the buck there.



andy

 

[Senna Jawa]

[nonsense]

Look, andy, don't embarrass yourself so much, be patient.

 

[Liar]

wildsweetone & Liar, in the presence of the version 1, version 2 indeed feels overloaded. I'd like to qualify this statement though. If you read version 2 only then most likely you wouldn't feel that it is so. Furthermore, according to the Jonathan Rowe Law, if you read version 1 a week after reading version 2 than the odds are that you would prefer version 2.

Possibly. I can only answer your question the context in which it was presented. All else is speculation.

 

[annaswirls]

Senna,
Neither one of these poems feels like a finished poem to me. I do not have any kind of emotional response in reading them. I need to be led a little bit more by a weighted word, an "ah ha" turn. I tried, but could not feel the situation, I had to think through it. There is the contrast of being locked in and then being surprised by the snow.... but I do not feel the surprise in version 1.

What is lacking is in the first poem is some action in the part of the writer. A physical reaction like the blink, which carries with it a story. A squint would do the trick as well.

Perhaps you might consider sticking with the eyes, as in variation 2. I think putting it into present tense might simplify the second version, or use descriptive words instead of the action (I know that sounds like a backwards piece of advice) but in this case, I think it might work

A few questions: do your eyes hover over the keyboard or the screen? Do you need the word "outdoors?" Where else would it snow?

I hesitate before putting together a kind of combination between your two versions, but I will do it as you have done the same with mine. Hopefully you have the same kind of reaction I do to your suggestions.

stretch

windowless office
sleepless eyes that hovered over keystrokes
blink awake the morning snow​

Variation 1:



all night

windowless office

in the morning

snow outdoors



variation 2:



eyes hovered over the keyboard all night

blinked at the snow outdoors in the morning




wlodzimierz holsztynski ©

1996-02-28

 

[Cub4ucme]

And in response to Andy, the haiku form does not translate well into English. Written using chinese characters it relies on the stories behind those characters.* Spoken it relies on sound alikes, (puns, onomatopoeia).The "aha effect" is multilevel. It also relies on a common set of cultural references - it is a popular form of programming geeks for that reason.

*You can test this if you have chinese friends, take any compound character and ask them why the componets are put together to get this new meaning.

Also knowing 1201, he'll probably show up 6 months from now expecting more of an answer than you are wrong.[/QUOTE]

I'm aware of that. It's almost impossible to translate it effectively given the constraints of format meaning syllables or beats.

I laughed at the geek reference having worked in the technology field.
Can't argue with you there.

best,
andy

 

[Cub4ucme]

Look, andy, don't embarrass yourself so much, be patient.

Today the evolution of Japanese Haiku
to what we write in English is quite different.

Originally Haiku (onji) was seventeen syllables.

In translation it should actually be less syllables.

We now give Haiku the freedom to choose
our own patterns but, to achieve the same impact
as the original Japanese Haiku we need only use
about nine to fourteen or fifteen syllables.

Most contemporary Haiku written in English retains the short-long-short
pattern that we are all familiar with.

The form should still attempt to achieve a goal of higher awareness
and most often is written about nature specifically changes of the season.

If Haiku is to be critically accepted it should provide
a profound moment captured by the poet.

Hard to explain, I guess the closest I can come to
it would be the kind of poem that pulls you in
and causes you to say WOW!

This may seem to be an off-based explanation
but one need only read one Haiku that works
to understand what I am getting at.


People like Senna can continue to accuse other people
of not knowing what poetry means while they attempt
to mislead others but, in the end poetry itself speaks
larger than the space it takes up.


From reading his poetry I can tell you I wouldn't spend
too much time allowing him to convince me of anything
in regards to poetics.

It's balantantly obvious he has no background on the subject
and is throwing straws into the air hoping they don't come back
down to poke him in the eye.

Haiku, when done right is profound, beautifull,
and leaves a lasting visual impression on the reader.

I don't believe Senna has arrived at that place in his writing
where he is capable of accomplishing that.

I fear he never will so long as he continues
to allow his oversized ego to lead the way.

Take your shots.




best,
andy

 

[annaswirls]

eh hem
he is a he

Today the evolution of Japanese Haiku
to what we write in English is quite different.

Originally Haiku (onji) was seventeen syllables.

In translation it should actually be less syllables.

We now give Haiku the freedom to choose
our own patterns but, to achieve the same impact
as the original Japanese Haiku we need only use
about nine to fourteen or fifteen syllables.

Most contemporary Haiku written in English retains the short-long-short
pattern that we are all familiar with.

The form should still attempt to achieve a goal of higher awareness
and most often is written about nature specifically changes of the season.

If Haiku is to be critically accepted it should provide
a profound moment captured by the poet.

Hard to explain, I guess the closest I can come to
it would be the kind of poem that pulls you in
and causes you to say WOW!

This may seem to be an off-based explanation
but one need only read one Haiku that works
to understand what I am getting at.


People like Senna can continue to accuse other people
of not knowing what poetry means while they attempt
to mislead others but, in the end poetry itself speaks
larger than the space it takes up.


From reading her poetry I can tell you I wouldn't spend
too much time allowing her to convince me of anything
in regards to poetics.

It's balantantly obvious she has no background on the subject
and is throwing straws into the air hoping they don't come back
down to poke her in the eye.

Haiku, when done right is profound, beautifull,
and leaves a lasting visual impression on the reader.

I don't believe Senna has arrived at that place in her writing
where she is capable of accomplishing that.

I fear she never will so long as she continues
to allow her oversized ego to lead the way.

Take your shots.




best,
andy

 

[Senna Jawa]

Possibly. I can only answer your question the context in which it was presented. All else is speculation.

Liar, but of course!

Not everything which I write is written equally seriously. I just wanted to share Jonathan's and my own observations, which are of a statistical nature only.

Let me add more. Consider a movie based more or less on a novel. Isn't it true, statistically speaking, that those who didn't read the novel enjoy the movie more? There seems to be a general agreement that the novels are better (deeper?) than the movies based on them. But these are different media.

BTW, I am grateful to everybody for their comments, but I am especially grateful for concrete comments, like the ones by wildsweetone, anna and you--the valuable statements are those which can be tested (falsifiable, as philosophers like to say), as opposed to the bullshit comments. And the comments do not have to stick closely to the question either, they can be highly interesting even when they go far beyond it, if they are authentic rather than just an act of a (false!) self-assertion by their authors.

Regards,

Senna Jawa

 

[Senna Jawa]

Senna,

Neither one of these poems feels like a finished poem to me.

But they are. You need to immerse yourself more into good poetry. (You CAN'T do it when you praise junk on Literotica. You pay the price). Both my versions are excellent haiku/poems. If they were signed Basho and Buson then my critics: 1201+andy+MNS, would have only goooood words for them. (Indeed, version 1 is more like Basho, and version 2 more like Buson, but never mind). BTW, if you are not used to haiku then for the time being let's look at those two versions just as at poems. It really does not matter whether or not you label them haiku.

I do not have any kind of emotional response in reading them.

Anna, you need to get used to the haiku approach to poetry. It's like with tea. If one didn't drink tea regularly then s/he cannot expect to have any real feeling for that colored, void of any taste water. And when one was on a salty, fat, spicy-hot diet then it's hard to appreciate the raw, fresh vegetables. Read the Chinese poetry of their golden age, follow it with haiku by the great masters, read what the great critics and translators had to say, immerse yourself in that world, in the world of poetry.

There is the contrast of being locked in and then being surprised by the snow....

Yes -surprise-. Great start. You are already miles ahead of 1201+andy+MNS (they can now protest all they want, too late). Please, do not stop. Continue! (Do your 50% of the poem). That's what haiku is about, that's what POETRY is about. In the haiku world it's called suggestiveness.

but I do not feel the surprise in version 1.

Surprise wise the two versions do not differ one from another. It seems that you can't accept an ascetic version, that's all. You want some sugar in your tea.

What is lacking is in the first poem is some action in the part of the writer. A physical reaction like the blink, which carries with it a story. A squint would do the trick as well.

Blinking/squinting may be also left to the reader's half of the poem, as in version 1. You're just screaming for that sugar.

I think putting it into present tense might simplify the second version

It seems to me that it is simpler as it is in this respect.

do your eyes hover over the keyboard or the screen?

You look at the screen, but "hovering" is rather ABOVE something, hence yes, the eyes hover over the keyboard. BTW, we are so modern these days , but there is still a possibility of a typewriter . Actually, there are electronic typewriters, with a small screen being a part of the keyboard. Of course here I am just teasing. It is safe to assume a PC. And seriously, there are also laptops.

Do you need the word "outdoors"? Where else would it snow?

Your alertness is well placed here. However this is a poetic usage of the language, where "outdoors" means that the lyrical subject went outdoors, and that's the role of the word "outdoors" in this case. Is it possible to avoid "outdoors"? Certainly, but there will be a trade-off.

Now let's have a look at your variation:

stretch

windowless office
sleepless eyes that hovered over keystrokes
blink awake the morning snow​

Having BOTH the "windowless office" and "eyes" is like having both the margarine and the butter on your sandwich. Anna, it's "ugh!" and "uck!".

This is in general an important moment. Many poems are harmed because their authors add margarine to butter. Sometimes authors do it just in case, so that their reader will understand them better. Sometimes authors have both because they are not able to let one go. Whatever the reason, this is a common defect of many poems. Avoid such artistic disasters.

"sleepless eyes" is very poor on several accounts. For instance "red eyes" is an image, while "sleepless eyes" is not. Phrase "sleeples nights" is natural and has a clear meaning, while "sleepless eyes" is unnatural and vague, it even doesn't make much sense if you think about it more. Finally, "sleepless eyes" sounds like a cheap attempt at brilliancy, uck! There is so much of such shallow junk around--avoid it!

Usage of "that" in your variation is poetically impotent. Poetry is the art of words!

Hovering over keystrokes, when compared to hovering over keyboard, is poor. Indeed, you can't really hover over keystrokes because keystrokes are not materialistic. It's much better to have something, to have something material to hover over. Hovering over keystrokes is false brilliancy, it's cheap.

Let your observations be brilliant. Then find perfect words for them. But avoid unusual combinations of words just for the sake of misplaced "originality", when simple and natural phrases can do. If you do play with the words for the sake of certain effects then put into it a lot, make it organic, don't do it ad hoc.

When you remove false brilliances from some poems then nothing will remain. Such poems are sometimes even praised. Nevertheless, if nothing is left then it means that there is simply nothing in those poems, that they are nothing

Your last line sounds to me awkward, unnatural (let me know if I am wrong). Also "morning snow" is both a bit weak due to the unnecessary adjective construction, and also because it is both imprecise and overly restrictive. How do you know that it is "morning snow" and not the "night snow"??? As you can see this is actually a very important moment, very-very important. To appreciate it you need to continue what you have started, when you mentioned "surprise".

Well, Anna, you have succeeded in turning my superb poem into a mediocre one

Thanks a lot . No, seriously, Anna, I am grateful for your comment.

Best regards,

Senna Jawa.

 

[annaswirls]

,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Dear Anna,

my comment was based on your comments and writings (on Literotica only).

I respect you as a person and as a poet. Thus I am sad now.

Warmest regards,


Senna Jawa

 

[Senna Jawa]

,,,,,,,,,,,

Hey Anna, you were not fast enough for me.

Best regards,

Wlodek (Senna Jawa)

 

[annaswirls]

Senna, just a quick reply with a question:

Why do you post your work at literotica if you have so little respect in general for our opinions and poetry?

I appreciate your metaphor of eating fatty, sugary foods and so on. Perhaps you have a point here, but still, I have read many "good" poems, Literotica is about 5% of what I read. Don't make such presumptions. I have read many classical haiku, and shorter poems here there and everywhere and have often left with a response.. A feeling. An Ah-ha reaction. I know how to appreciate subtlety.

I know how to drink tea. I did not want sugar in the tea. Perhaps I wanted it brewed in hot water. I have read much of your work and have appreciated it. These two did not feel finished to me. Perhaps you are finished with them, and I guess that is the real definition of finished, but as a reader, they did not feel finished to me. You can tell me I am wrong a hundred times, but it will just get you frustrated and I doubt that you telling me why I should think your poems are perfect will make it so.

At any rate, I have yet to read the new poems from last week and I saw that you had quite a few up there. Or should I run run run from literotica as fast as I can?

I apologize for manipulating your poem. It was a mistake.

 

[annaswirls]

Hey Anna, you were not fast enough for me.

Best regards,

Wlodek (Senna Jawa)

ha! I had to drop the boys off at school and could not finish my comment, decided it was best to delete and put the whole thing together