which is more important, freedom of expression or respect for religious beliefs?

[silverwhisper]

i don't know if you've been following this story, but i found it revolting, yet compelling at the same time. a danish newspaper ran a series of political cartoons in which mohammed, the prophet of islam, is depicted. it generated a whole bunch of extreme reaction among muslims worldwide. a french newspaper follows suit, and again, a whole lot of bad reaction.

and then the french paper fired the managing editor who decided to run 'em.

that's just stupid, IMHO.

but even so, palestinians seized an EU commission office in the gaza strip.

now, that article posed what i thought was an interesting question: "which is more sacred in the western world — freedom of expression or respect for religious beliefs"?

and of course, to yours truly, that's just poll fodder. :>

ed

 

[EJFan]

i think that respect for religious beliefs IS freedom of expression. freedom of expression isn't only about being able to speak your mind... it's about accepting that EVERYONE can speak their mind... AND it's about knowing when NOT to speak your mind. the latter is a responsibility that comes along with the right to freedom of expression and i think more people should pay attention to that responsibility than the superficial right itself.

 

[jadefirefly]

I think EJ said it really well.

Expression doesn't -just- mean opening your mouth and letting stuff fall out. Silence can be expression, too.

Oooooorrr, you can also have the right to be obnoxiously loud and vocal in your opinions, and too bad to anyone who doesn't like it. It won't win you friends, though.

 

[webbo1]

But you gotta look at it realistically

They are allowed to call us infidells and other stuff, write what ever they want, bombard our TV with how they are going to destroy us.

But if we do anything they don't like they automatically jump up and down about it

Don't get me wrong some of my best friends are Muslim but they know that if they speak their mind that I in turn will speak mine

freedom of speech has been shot down by Political correctness

 

[Badd Leroy]

"which is more sacred in the western world — freedom of expression or respect for religious beliefs"?

and of course, to yours truly, that's just poll fodder. :>

ed[/QUOTE]
We should ask ourselves this: Where would religion be without the freedom to express. With so many religions and beliefs, it's easy for me to put little faith or respect in any of it save my own rationalizations.
If the right to free speech should be taken away then I wonder what effect that same power would have over religion.

 

[TBKahuna123]

Freedom of expression is not carte blanche, and to believe it is can be dangerous. That said, I'm a big supporter of freedom of expression. So when does freedom of expression cross that line into being dangerous? When it starts to hurt other people. If you exercising your freedom puts lives at risk, say by giving away military secrets or something, then you have crossed that line. I guess likewise you could say that if you exercising your rights would incite rioting, then that too would cross the line. If your free speech wants to take umbrage with my religious beliefs, fine. You can disagree all you want, but show me the respect that my convictions deserve. Disagreement and disrespect are two different things.

But, here's where the tricky part comes in. How do you show respect for a someone who is looking for an excuse to start rioting, who is looking for a reason to take offense and twist your free speech against you? When disagreement is taken as outright disrespect? This is exactly what fundamentalists of every ideal (both religious and secular) do on a regular basis, and have done for centuries.

So I guess what I'm saying is that there doesn't have to be one or the other. You can respect my religious beliefs while disagreeing with them, even vehmently. Of course, I'm not a reactionary zealot, so my reactions tend to be a little more realistic than some. Now don't get me wrong, I think the cartoons that sparked these riots and this thread were out of line and it was stupid for those papers to print them. Heck the fortuneteller from the traveling circus could have predicted the results. Still, I think reacting to some disparaging remarks on your religion by burning buildings and riotting, thus reinforcing the stereotypes said cartoons depict, is counterproductive to the say the least. it is lunacy to say the most.

 

[LoneOne]

Ok, living in the EU, germany to be exact I have to say that now our friends here really get a taste of what "freedom of the press" means. Up until now it seems that there was something like an misunderstanding of our system here. They get their religios freedom here but do not want to accept our other wonderfull rules.

I know some moslems here who do not like these cartoons and are angry about this but they are not starting riots because of it. For moslems it's a sin to make pictures of mohamed, ok this guy who made the cartoons is not a moslem (is he?). It's not political correct what he had done but is it a sin? No, not for him. So, I've spoken with some and well, at the end it comes to "Well it was not p.c. what he had done but he has the right to do so"

On the other side, I have seen some moslems on tv who should definitly pull the cork out of their ass. Damn it, I always said everyone should believe what he wants but if you use your relgion as an excuse for not using your brain you beginn to annoy me. I such cases I would like to gratulate this guy who made the cartoons and bit him to make some more, one targeting Jesus, one God, one Allah... even take Buddha for a ride. (Now that I think about it, I have seen cartoons with god very often in my life and what is it with this commandment... the one with idols and pictures... )

I do not like people arguing with religion in their minds, often it ends up arguing who has the best imaginary friend. I often beginn to make jokes regarding my imaginary friend Harvey in such situations

If you want to start a riot, search for a scapegoat and start rioting. I just hope that this situation do not escalate even more.

To sum up my oppinion: What this cartoonist and the newspaper did was not political correct but they had the right to do so, the same everyone here has, the right to say what you want. If some zeolots think that this has to be punished... well, welcome to our year 2006, we did not survive the inquisition, the nazis and whatever tried to destroy freedom of speech just to
take a step back now. Yeah, unpleasant but this is our modern age of information.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but this whole situation is rather unpleasant and I'm a supporter of free speech as long as it follows the laws

 

[webbo1]

I've got to agree with you Loneone .... it's the wowsers who are telling us to be PC but the minute their lives or posessions are threatened they are the first to cry for help from the heathen hordes.

pffffft PC I'll call a spade a spade, and if some one tickes me off I'll punch him in the nose - simple as that - respect our culture????? respect mine too


Man I'd better stop before I really get wound up....
"and why don't boss's come with a mute button" Coke zero add

 

[Ron54]

Alot of good insight here.
I don't believe in PC and I do believe in freedom of expression.
The problem seems to be the old shoe it's the extremists that get all the press. Printing a cartoon is not shoving my religionus believes down someone throught. Preaching to kill all the infidels is not freedom of speach any more than yelling fire in a crowded theater. There are no simple answers to this problem with Moslums and the freedoms most western cultures have come to demand. Both sides have to practice some control and compassion. I have a right to express what I want. but if it excites the kind of reaction we are seeing I have to take some responsability for the outcome of my words or drawings. This is the same for someone who insights people to kill someone who does not adhear to their religious beliefs.
If you don't like the cartoon don't buy the paper, end of subject. Firing the editor is censorship.
Also not using spell check is a freedom I intend to keep!

 

[Straight-8]

Freedom of expression is one of the main tenets of the secular west's 'religion'; if by religion you mean a set of values to believe in and govern your behaviour by. And, all things considered, I think it is one of the best beliefs going. And nobody better say anything different or they are insulting my religion!

 

[Guest]

 

[midwestyankee]

I keep coming back to read this thread and have finally decided neither one preempts the other.

some people use freedom of expression for manipulation and propaganda in ways that are not all that dissimilar to the way some religious people use God for manipulation and propaganda.

I think a little tolerance from everyone would go a long way.

I am in complete agreement with this.

Right now in this country we have a similar situation, only it's reversed. When the average American exercises his right to free speech, certain parties who are in the administration or subservient to it (can you spell F-O-X?) go into a riot of indignation over the "unpatriotic" among us.

It's very discouraging to hear our leaders preach about their desire to spread democracy around the world while fearing its practice at home.

 

[Straight-8]

I think it is interesting that the Catholic religion has always encouraged depictions of Christ and the saints while certain other Christian religions refuse to have any depiction of Christ or the saints. The Catholic view has resulted in some of the most amazing art in the western world. As far as I know there has never been any violence towards Catholics solely or principally because of their depiction of Christ - although we have certainly seen more than our share of violence between Catholics and Protestants in which the fact that Catholics have paintings and statues has been used as a point of distinction.

As I undestand it, there is no part of Koran that expressly forbids depictions of the Prophet. It is a religious tradition that has arisen and has the sanction of the leaders of the Muslim faith(s). Both the Muslims and the Christian religions that oppose depictions of their 'Holy Man' do so on the basis that it will tend to draw their religion into idolatry.

Clearly this catoon image will not draw the faithful into idolatry. I think the violent over-reaction of some Muslims is exactly what the cartoons satirize. It is extremely unfortunate that, instead of considering what behavior has led to the cartoons, these Muslim extremists are justifying the west's view of Islam as promoting violence and hatred - the very thing that was satirized! It appears these Moslem extremists are reacting emotionally to a hatred of the west and deep sense of insult.

I hope this is what freedom of expression offers to those of us that espouse it: the ability to reflect on the true nature of the commentary. Do the Muslims have a basis for feeling insulted? Perhaps, certainly those moderates who have approached the issue rationally probably do; but they must become the dominant force in their religion. At this point the extremists are merely reinforcing the view put forward by the cartoons.

 

[webbo1]

There ya go - another reason to ban religion every where - that way no more wars started on the purpose of God is on our side or who ever they worship

lol

 

[silverwhisper]

straight-8 quoth
the violent over-reaction of some muslims is exactly what the cartoons satirize.

if i were in a darkly cynical mood, i'd say that it was somehow predictable.

ed