Where is the REAL envy?

[Lovely Latina]

Clara Thompson once wrote a famous paper in 1943 entitled "Women and Penis Envy," in which she argued that, "The attitude called Penis Envy is similar to the attitude of any underprivilaged group toward those in power." Subsequently, penis envy had been understood to be symbolic...a rationalization for women's feelings of inadequacy and subordination in a patriarchal society.

Hmmmmm.

Well, okay. I will be the first to admit that I, like many of us little girls, am truly fascinated by this most beautiful and awe-inspiring organ. How can you not admire its design in terms of beauty, strength, versatility, form, function, ability to write words in the fallen snow? I have often fantasized about what it would be like to have a cock...to have something so visibly raw and sexual that I can physically grip and stroke...to be able to feel a woman's silken walls expanding and being stretched to accomodate my massive girth. Even my masturbatory fantasies extend to this in that sometimes my vibrator "becomes" my cock, and as I hold it and stroke it like one, the most intense orgasms come from imagining that I'm feeling what my lover's cock would be feeling as he plunges deeply inside me. But that's about where my "envy" ends.

Truth be told, though in reality I am the "penetratED" as opposed to the "penetratOR," I do not in any way feel "inferior" because of this...in OR out of the bedroom. On the contrary, I feel as if WOMEN are the ones with the true "power." Some may agree, and some may disagree, but I believe that it is the FEMALE sexual organs (vagina, womb, breasts) that hold the REAL power. We never hear about "vagina envy" or "breast envy" most likely because:

A) It would be detrimental to the whole "men rule the world" theory,

B) Men may not even realize that they possess such envy, or

C) Men must suppress and/or hide any desire to assimilate anything remotely feminine (body parts, emotions, etc.) unto themselves, and thus exaggerate the agressiveness and "superiority" of the penis.

Sure, we women may secretly wish that we had a penis to play with and to "penetrate" with, but are men just as envious of what we can do with OUR bodies? How do they feel that they will never be able to experience a new life growing inside them, nor be able to feed this precious life from their own breast? How many men are so damn jealous that we can cum more than once in a single sitting or that we can so easily bring them to their knees with our female sensuality?

One of my favorite jokes of all time goes like this:

There was a little boy and a little girl playing in a sandbox. The boy braggingly says, "I just got a new bike." Girl: "So...I just got one, too." Boy: "Well, I just got a new Sega video game." Girl: "Me, too." Little boy thinks for awhile, drops his pants and says, "I've got one of THESE." Little girl looks down inside her dress, goes home to her mother, and then returns. Lifting her dress, the little girls replies, "Well, my mommy says that with one of THESE, I can have ALL of THOSE that I want!"

So my question to all of you is (*Whew*, finally LL!):

Where does the true envy, and ultimately, the true "power" lie? Are any of you (especially the men) willing to admit your envy and why you feel that way? Do you think that Clara's theory about penis envy being "symbolic" of female inferiority still holds true to ANY degree in today's society?

 

[Jade]

LL! Great joke... gonna tell that one at work tomorrow! (can I even spelllllll)

Anyway,
As to your question I have never really envied men (except when I was a little kid and was taught that childbirth was supposed to be a painful puishment for all women b/c of the sins of Eve... another thread of course, so back to my main point)... in fact, often I feel sad when I watch "genderization" (Jade's special term of the day) in young children. Having worked in the childcare field in many different forms, again and again ya see the same stuff resurfacing over and over. One of the worst...
"boys are sissies when they cry. " Ugh, if I had a dollar for every time I heard that phrase! It just kills me when someone can't cry and they need to, or someone can't express emotions b/c they needed to. I am thrilled that for the most part (without getting out of hand of course) I am "Free" to express my feelings without getting teased. Now, either way, the stereotypes are gonna kick anyone in the butt... haha b/c maybe I can express my feelings just fine, but express my "opinions" and suddenly I am a "femi-nazi" (lol) so anyway, hope that answers...?

So, I am happy to be a woman and um,
El Fin!

 

[Nexxus]

I believe the real reason men don't feel the envy is that we are basically greedy, selfish creatures who want the physical pleasure. We don't want to be the ones with the body parts that satisfy, we want to be the ones satisFIED.
We don't want to know the humiliation of gender degredation and lower salaries that come along with having those parts. And we don't want to know the tiresome efforts of others constantly groping, catching a feel or "accidently" bumping into us for the sheer pleasure of telling their friends how "real" they are.
I think the parts are given to the correct gender. The gender that knows how to use them best. If you wanted to be grandiose, you could say men give life to the woman's womb by shooting forth their sperm from that "massive" tool. And with that gift of seed, it is how women come to know the glory and ultimate importance of their body parts, but that would be an egotistical and quite unsubstantiated comment. Both sides have much to brag about with their reproductive organs, and I believe the whole "penis envy" label was just a lame attempt at men trying to make women appear jealous of the power I think neither of them control very well at all.

Nex

 

[Never]

I believe that it is the FEMALE sexual organs (vagina, womb, breasts) that hold the REAL power. We never hear about "vagina envy" or "breast envy" most likely because:

I have read anthropological studies of Australian and Polynesian tribes in which young men would slice open the topside of their penises in order to have a bleeding vagina for a while. This, supposedly (meaning: In the anthropologist's opinion), was done so they could have the female power of life as well as the male power of death.

I also read about South American tribes where young men would trample red flowers symbolizing menstrual blood and drink the sperm of older warriors so they would be less 'female'.

Both Hercules and Hermes cross-dressed for a period of years. For Hercules it was a punishment of sorts but Hermes was later revered as a bi-gendered god; the Hermatrigum, (sp?) the source of all knowledge, because he had experienced life as both male and female.

Hmmm, as for my personal feelings on the matter. Ah, maybe some other time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next on Jerry Springer: lesbians with castration anxiety and the women who love them.

 

[SeXy ReDHeD]

I have never experienced penis envy... both because I love my vagina, and because I think if I had one, I wouldn't be especially.. ummm.. blessed .

In regards to this theory's creation... I agree with Nex that it was just another attempt at domination....

Oh... before I forget... another cute joke:

One day Adam and Eve were in the garden, just lounging around, when God comes walking up with a bag thrown over his shoulder.

He says hi to Adam and Eve and proceeds to explain that he has one more "endowment" in his bag for whoever wanted it.
He tells them, "Okay, this one here is a very special one. It is the ability to pee standing up. Which one of you wants it?"

They both get very excited and begin to argue, but when Eve sees how giddy and thrilled Adam is with this concept, she agrees to let Adam have it.

So, God digs down in his bag and presents Adam with his new ability.

God was about to walk away, but then he looked down at the bag again and said, "Hmm? What's this? Oh, looks like I was wrong. I have one more thing to give to you. I'll let you have this one, Eve, since you were so kind to let Adam have the last one."

"What is it?" Eve asks.

God smiles and says, "Multiple orgasms, my dear."

 

[Lasher]

Wow....

You should be taking notes, Flamingo... That's how ya ask a question.

Seriously, though, I have never for one moment regretted having a cock instead of a vagina. I look at the things that women go thru - from periods to gynecological visits, unwanted pregnancies, rape and other forms of sexual abuse - and pretty much thank God everyday that I was born with a penis.

But that doesn't mean that there are not parts of the feminine mystique that I'm curious about, or envious of. First and foremost is just what LL mentioned above - the ability of women to have orgasm after orgasm after orgasm. I'd almost be willing to trade my cock in for that one. My wife and I have reached a point where we're so comfortable in our relationship that she's able to have several orgasms each time we have sex. And it burns my butt to know that by the time we've finished, that I've had one (or, sometimes even 2), and she's had 4 or 5 or 6 and is still ready for more. Not that the one (or sometimes 2) isn't pretty fucking fantastic - but it's the whole orgasm thing that tells me that, if there is a God, she's a woman.

I believe the real reason men don't feel the envy is that we are basically greedy, selfish creatures who want the physical pleasure. We don't want to be the ones with the body parts that satisfy, we want to be the ones satisFIED.

I don't what the fuck this is all about. To me, the greatest power of my penis is to provide satisfication for my partner. I happen to have several body parts that I use for the purpose of providing her with physical pleasure, and the result of that is that it increases the pleasure and the satisfaction for BOTH of us. The bedroom is definitely one place where greed DOES NOT work. And to suggest that men as a gender believe this to be true is an insult to us all.

How can you not admire its design in terms of beauty, strength, versatility, form, function, ability to write words in the fallen snow?

One time while I was in college I was actually able to write an entire poem in the snow.... Amazing what you can accomplish if you drink enough... Hehehehe...

(Btw, beautiful piece of writing, LL)

 

[Svedish_Chef]

LL, ooooh yeah, ooooooooooooooooh God.

I think penis envy is still a large part of our society for better or worse... and I dont wish to be female but dont mind at all the females who wish to be me. As to where I stand... live and let live.

Da chef

 

[Xander]

I always wanted to be Lovely Latina......

 

[Nicole]

OH MY GOD Lasher that was so well said.

I was really blown away by that, and I would have to say that your wife is one very lucky lady that you think that way.

 

[Deborah]

Hey Niclole, you notice how much smarter Lasher has become lately? I mean, with "if there is a God, she's a woman" and all. One might even think he is Guru or some such thing. His pal Flagg should be so smart.

 

[Cheyenne]

No envy

No envy here. I enjoy being a girl. (Isn't that a song title from a musical?)

I've had this penis envy discussion with a friend on a much more basic level. He didn't want the mess of a monthly period (doesn't bother me, again, makes me feel feminine) and I didn't want the mess of having to clean up after an orgasm. I'm much more free to orgasm whenever and where ever I want to without such worry. Our conclusion was that he was happy to keep his penis and I was happy for him to have it.

And no, I don't think penis envy exists, or that it represents female inferiority in today's society.

 

[Nexxus]

Indeed, Lasher, your wife IS lucky that you think that way. But to think that as a gender all men should be insulted that I state the majority of us are more in need of BEING satisfied than satisfying women is narrow minded. Most of the males that I have known are pretty basic creatures. Albeit, some are truly devoted to sexualy satisfying their female counterparts, but I believe the larger percentage really only does so as to bring about their own orgasm.
How many women have been faced with a man who finishes first and doesn't go on to bring her to climax as opposed to the men who consider her needs first and then their own. Maybe we aren't aware. Maybe we want to believe "the power of our penises" is to bring our lovers to their sexual peak. But by nature men are not as emotional as women (on the whole)and reach that peak much sooner, and I would suggest that overall most women need extra stimulation to reach orgasm, not just a penis alone, which is what the original question related to.
Everything I see, read, and hear points to the fact that men prioritize their craving for that physical gratification above the need to gratify the women. I realize YOU do not think this way, but I also believe that you are not the "average" male. So insulted or not I stand by my belief that men are indeed sexually greedy and selfish. And given the opportunity to satisfy or BE satisfied, a far larger percentage would choose the latter.

Nex

[Edited by Nexxus on 07-17-2000 at 04:55 PM]

 

[Nicole]

Hey Niclole, you notice how much smarter Lasher has become lately? I mean, with "if there is a God, she's a woman" and all. One might even think he is Guru or some such thing. His pal Flagg should be so smart.

Well I don't know Deborah, do you really think that Flagg has the brain for that???

 

[Lasher]

Typical Male Bullshit...

But to think that as a gender all men should be insulted that I state the majority of us are more in need of BEING satisfied than satisfying women is narrow minded.

Ahh, but that's not what you said. Repeatedly in your previous post you said, "we are" or "we don't" implying an absolute standard that all males as a gender follow. I would even be surprised if it is a majority. The insult came because you implied that the stereotypical male "locker room" mentality towards sex (which most men realize is bullshit just about the time the actually go on a date with a girl)is actually the end-all, be-all of male existence. I have no doubt that there still exists a subgroup of males so insecure in their masculinity and doubting of their potence that they do believe in only proving their dominance thru orgasm. Hell, someone engaging in nothing but a series of one night stands would be foolish to do otherwise. But I would be greatly disappointed if they are in the majority (as I'm sure many of the Women here would be, too. LOL).

There's something deeply disturbing in your entire attitude toward sex. It's impossible for me to fathom how anyone could approach the subject with an "I'll get mine, you get yours attitude" an expect to live anything but a shallow, lonely and meaningless life. When done properly, the need to prioritize anyone's satisfaction should be irrevelant. Instead, it should evolve with both partners feeding off the feelings and desires of each other to build towards a physically and emotionally satisfying climax (fucking each other until your eyes roll into the backs of your heads works rather well for this, too, btw. hehehe...).

Maybe the problem you, and the "basic creatures" you know, have had is the lack of exposure to a meaningful and loving relationship. Again, I can see how your ideas would apply to those who have engaged in nothing but meaningless sex. Perhaps I am an Ubermensch, or maybe I am just lucky, but I do feel sorry for those who are missing out on what I have.

But by nature men are not as emotional as women (on the whole)...

Yet another stereotypical statement that needs to be dealt with.

Society teaches men to deal with their feelings in ways that are less overt displays of emotion - but can you honestly believe that Men feel less than Women? Can you that quickly dismiss something that is basic to your humanity? I think not. Emotion comes in many diverse forms, but when combined in its whole, a lack of display should not be equated with a lack of feeling.

...and reach that peak much sooner,

Have you tried thinking about baseball??? (What was the line from Austin Powers?? "Margaret Thatcher on a cold day! Margaret Thatcher on a cold Day!!".... heheheh, that might help, too).

I would suggest that overall most women need extra stimulation to reach orgasm, not just a penis alone, which is what the original question related to.

Actually the original question had to do with Penis Envy, and whether or not any of the males here suffered from Vagina Envy (and I'm awfully disappointed that so few have chosen to answer, btw... Although I'm sure Flagg is still suffering a great deal of turmoil on just how to answer this...). I would also suggest that anyone, male or female, reaches quicker and more satisfying orgasms with more than just stimulation by, or of, the penis. I'm still not sure what you meant by that, either.

Oh, and Deborah, everything I know about God I learned from you.

 

[Laurel]

I always wanted to be Lovely Latina......

Don't we all...

Interesting thread! I've never wanted to be a man. Women have so many more options - we can wear pants OR skirts OR shorts. We can choose strong professional leadership roles OR stay home and mother the kids - and we aren't penalized either way. To this day, men are still expected to "act like men" - a man crying is still a shameful thing. A man who stays at home to watch the kids while his wife's at work will still be stigmatized by his community.

That said, I do at times find being a woman to be an obstacle, especially being a young petite woman. While it allows me to get away with more (I can get help in a store much faster than Manu), it also means I'm not taken as seriously as I would like to be. When Manu and I had our other business, people we dealt with always assumed it was HIS business and I was his tagalong girlfriend. I still get that - the other day, some guy I've never heard of wrote me to say that he wanted to "talk business" with Manu, and would Manu call him at some phone number.

It's extremely frustrating, because I don't want to be a rag and explain to him just how much of the site is my idea and how much of it is my work because it comes across as defensive, but it irritates me that I'm not seen as in charge. Manu and I are partners, and that doesn't mean I do the laundry & cook his meals while he runs the website. There's nothing you can do in those situations - you just bite your lip and move on.

Luckily, Manu feels my pain and is as insulted by that as I am. He's not in any hurry to call Mr. "Talk Business" guy back. But I've had other boyfriends in the past who've looked down on and my interests as "cute", as secondary to whatever they're doing. That really burns my butt.

Anyhow, enough venting for now. Think I'll go paint my nails, lol.

 

[CreamyLady]

Biting my tongue.

I don't envy men. I like being a woman, for the most part, though I have issues with the whole idea of PMS -- what part of biology does it serve?

As for the whole business of power, I'm going to retire and pack my tongue in ice. I really bit down on it.

 

[Lovely Latina]

If you wanted to be grandiose, you could say men give life to the woman's womb by shooting forth their sperm from that "massive" tool. And with that gift of seed, it is how women come to know the glory and ultimate importance of their body parts, but that would be an egotistical and quite unsubstantiated comment.

That HAS TO BE the most absurd comment (aside from those made by a certain Aphasian on the board) that I've ever heard. Well, at least you acknowledged its absurdity (though to what degree, I am still uncertain), and I can now get this mental image out of my mind of a 13-year-old boy "shooting forth" his all-powerful "gift of seed" while jacking off to a Victoria's Secret catalog. Compared to a woman's PHYSICAL reproductive role in bringing forth life, a man's, though important and necessary, of course <smiling>, is truly "fleeting" (and sometimes not even THAT lengthy...lol).

I have read anthropological studies of Australian and Polynesian tribes in which young men would slice open the topside of their penises in order to have a bleeding vagina for a while. This, supposedly (meaning: In the anthropologist's opinion), was done so they could have the female power of life as well as the male power of death.

Never Brown...I found the content of your post fascinating. These Western men of ours could do well to spend a week (hell...probably even just a DAY! lol) with these Polynesian tribes. Although...maybe just making them walk around and sleep with a watermelon strapped to their stomachs for a few months followed by having to pass a golf ball-sized kidney stone, might be a more humane way to let them experience the "female power of life."

I stand by my belief that men are indeed sexually greedy and selfish. And given the opportunity to satisfy or BE satisfied, a far larger percentage would choose the latter.

Hi Nex...me again. It makes me very sad indeed to hear that you so firmly believe this statement to be true of the "larger percentage." Fortunately, I have been blessed by only having been involved with such men (boys) within my teenage years. As an adult, I have been even luckier in that every man that I have allowed to bed me (there have actually only been four total), has been MORE THAN eager to provide for my complete and total satisfaction OVER, ABOVE, and/or PRECEDING their own. And yes...their intentions and desires to please me were sincere and not just an attempt to get their own rocks off. And I, in turn, have wanted nothing less than to reciprocate that pleasure. Like Lasher said, it's called a "loving relationship." I have no doubts that there exist quite a few immature men/boys out there that are as you have described. I am not arguing that point. But to purport that this is true of the "far greater majority"??

I have never had casual sex, and the men that I have slept with *have not* been your "average males," (whatever THAT means), but to say that the majority of males out there don't care as much about their partner's satisfaction as their own is quite heinous to me. I could be naive here...but I don't think so. Do you not get pleasure from seeing how much pleasure you give your partner? Maybe even in an egotistical sense, if not any other? For someone who claims himself to be "gifted" in his sexual repertoire and pleasing of women (and not to mention, being in a MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIP), I find it hard to believe that you would stand so firmly in this belief.

I have alot more that I wanted to address on what has been said here (Laurel...<singing>...have I told you lately that I love you?), but it's way past my bedtime. So I shall return tomorrow to offer further thoughts.

Btw Xander...if there is ANYONE'S penis that I envy on this BB...it's yours, baby! I mean...just look at who gets to play with it from now on. *LOL*

(Btw, beautiful piece of writing, LL)

Right back atcha, hon. Ten-fold.

(Hiya baby Jade! Did ya get any laughs with my joke?)

 

[Jade]

LL! Yes I most certainly did! Loved everything you wrote, very well written actually!

 

[Gaucho]

penis envy, hmmmm? No, I can't honestly say that - oh, wait, I've got one! Never mind.

There is another Greek legend that says the first people in the world contained two pairs of everything (heads, limbs, organs, etc) and that they were made up of male/male, male/female and female/female parts. Zeus, fearing the size and power of these people, clove them in two with a thunderbolt and ever since then all the people on earth have been searching for and seeking to rejoin with their other half. Notice I didn't say "better half".

The difference in the sexes should be celebrated, not envied. Personally, I think that women are the true source of power in the universe and that much of the animosity directed towards them in our (and other) culture stems from fear and a lack of understanding of the true nature of humanity. All women are goddesses and, as such, worthy of worship (one reason why I wouldn't participate in the "who would you fuck?" thread. In my opinion, to suggest that a woman on this board is not fuckable would be to denigrate all of you - I mean, who do we think we are, anyway?) and we men should be eternally grateful that they continue to allow us to stand (or kneel, if your prefer) at their altar.

And as for men who are concerned only with their own pleasure and desire a different sex partner, I have a suggestion: Switch hands.

 

[CreamyLady]

All women are goddesses and, as such, worthy of worship (one reason why I wouldn't participate in the "who would you fuck?" thread. In my opinion, to suggest that a woman on this board is not fuckable would be to denigrate all of you - I mean, who do we think we are, anyway?) and we men should be eternally grateful that they continue to allow us to stand (or kneel, if your prefer) at their altar.

I want to bestow upon you, Gaucho, so very many blessings; not the least of which is continued vigor and incredible luck with love!!!

Signed,
The Creamy Goddess

 

[Nexxus]

My oh my, the life of the optimist. I would love to live in a world where men are so sensative to a womans needs and do so with nothing less than the desire to perpetuate the "loving relationship," but i do believe its all hogwash.
I may be, no, actually I AM way too cynical. I have over the years had both loving relationships where the root of our deeds was to bring about mutual gratification in all areas. I have also been witness and participant to relationships that have selfish agendas hidden in the recesses of the individuals minds. I don't claim to know for fact that all people act that way. I don't claim to know for fact that all people are goodhearted and only aim to please. This is why I say it is my belief. In my travels I have encountered many people. They tend to, for some reason, tell me their secrets. Most of the women I have met seem to almost always have the same story about the guy who prioritizes her way down on the list both in the bedroom and out. The men on the other hand are almost always guilty of "that locker room mentality (which by the way, if you think men stop having that "mentality before they first strat dating you are saddly mistaken. All the men I have met suffer that that mentality when alone with other men)."
As for using "we are" and "we don't" I used that termonology because I am lumping myself into that majority. I am guilty of that need to be satisfied and I am capable of admiting that need. I enjoy pleasuring a woman, and in many ways can probably reach orgasm by doing just that (well, with a little help from my right hand). But in the end the enjoyment obtained from helping someone reach a climax is in itself a need to satisfy the desire we have to please. Do you get your partner off just because it makes them feel good, or because it makes you feel good to make them feel good? Have you ever gotten someone off and hated doing it, but known it was just for their benefit alone?
The fact that you bring up the "think baseball" principle just points out the fact that men have to consciously try to hold back their orgasm, whereas women can come and come again with out fear of not being able to maintain performance. I meant this to point out the fact that given a straight on sexual encounter without going to any lengths to try and stimulate a woman with any body part other than our penises, most men would succumb to climax almost immediately. Wasn't Lovely's original question about women having just a penis to work with?
I am trying to bounce back and forth from what you and I have both written (and I am sure someone will tell me there is an easier way to do this, but as I've mentioned in some other thread I am a software clutz)and I can't really tell if any of this is still on track.
LL. You know alot about me and I don't lie. I am capable of many moods and have worn many faces in my life (not all of them well meaning). I do claim to have a vast amount of experience with women and I feel that this knowledge has helped me along the way. I would like to say that all the men out there have a womans heart, mind and soul held in great regard. I feel I would be lying. I am a pleaser. I always have been. But it takes viewing yourself deep within (and the help of new friends) to realize that that need is just a way to please yourself by feeling needed.
I am sure that the 4 men who were lucky enough to make love with you treated you as you treated them. But did they do that with the women they were with after you?
Who would be more likely to take advantage of the "one night stand?" So much has been written about men and how they are stimulated visually as opposed to women eho are stimulated mentally. Can a gender who gets off on images more than another gender not be considered the gender more likely to put their needs first. If you put an "average male" in a room alone with a horny female and told him no matter what he did it would never be found out would he be apt to consider her needs first in this one shot deal? If you put a female in the same situation, would sex even occur?
Two male morons who wrote a book about "the truth about men" actually said one very interesting thing. If a man who is attached is walking down the street and a "not extremely unattractive" woman comes up and offers to have sex with him right then in a nearby secluded spot and he'll never see her again, he would go with her, fuck her and leave. If an attached woman was approached by an amazingly gorgeous man, dressed immbeccibly (spelling..ugh) offering her the same deal, she would tell him off or punch him.
Who wants to be satisfied more?
Well, I am sure my opinion poll ratings have slipped even further, but to concede is to be a wus.

Nex

[Edited by Nexxus on 07-18-2000 at 06:21 PM]

 

[Svedish_Chef]

I always wanted to be Lovely Latina......

Don't we all...

Interesting thread! I've never wanted to be a man. Women have so many more options - we can wear pants OR skirts OR shorts. We can choose strong professional leadership roles OR stay home and mother the kids - and we aren't penalized either way. To this day, men are still expected to "act like men" - a man crying is still a shameful thing. A man who stays at home to watch the kids while his wife's at work will still be stigmatized by his community.

OK
1> I don't cry... much (Maybe once a year)
2> Laurel be at Angel's bachelorette and you will see a man in a dress... just looking like a woman.

3> The business thing... mum has the same problem with the talking... I had to make some calls on behalf of dad because they wouldn't talk to mum
4> I'd love to stay home and look after kids but I cant deal with thier shit(literally)
Having said that in Australia at least that doesn't seem to attach a stigma


Um LL I just still dont have a real answer but I still want to be you..


Da Chef

 

[Lovely Latina]

Back on track

Personally, I think that women are the true source of power in the universe

Women are goddesses and, as such, worthy of worship

In my opinion, to suggest that a woman on this board is not fuckable would be to denigrate all of you - I mean, who do we think we are, anyway

LOL muchisimo!!

Gaucho, sweetie...how can I not say anything but a most heartfelt "Welcome to the Board Oh Wise (Bullshitting?? *LOL*) One!" No, but seriously, great post and welcome! (Pssst...you can get up now.)

Creamy Lady...I respect your opinion, and sincerely hope that you will re-consider that "holding of your tongue" and share it with all of us that would appreciate your input. Ummmm...so to speak.

Nex...I'm not even sure we're debating the same issue anymore. The only valid point that I might agree with is that a person only knows what he or she has been exposed to. True. And it may be that in your vast social experiences, that you have ONLY come in contact with what you refer to as "average males." OK. So, that being the case, I guess it's only fitting that it is YOUR BELIEF that the "far greater majority" of men are fuckwads (pardon my portuguese) and it is MY ("optomistic") BELIEF that the far greater majority are not. We'll just leave it at that.

We seem to have gotten off topic (oh dear), so I'm going to attempt to re-state my intent.

My question was not whether or not penis envy exists today, because I think it most definitely does. (I know I's gots it bad!) My question was whether the penis envy that exists today can still be seen in terms of being a symbol of women wanting to enjoy the advantages (social, business, and otherwise) that men have always seemed to. The second part of my question was about whether or not there was just as much unrealized "vagina/breast envy" out there. It's not something readily discussed, and I had proposed that maybe men's exaggeration of their "superior penis" was their way of suppressing their hidden envy of females.

Laurel hit on some great points about how we have many choices that men don't. Most men don't have the option of working for a year or two and then finding someone to take care of them. Being a man...proving it...is full-time work (I would imagine), and giving up one's manliness even for a moment of "let's pretend" is most likely threatening to a man. And then there's the issue of do men really want to afford us MORE power than we ALREADY have over them.

Let me offer this on the flip side:

We women have been trying on everything male for years now. We've taken on their work, their attitudes, their behavior, and, in come cases, even their clothes and hairstyles. A woman in a dark "power suit" begets much more respect than a woman with similar ability attired in a more feminine business dress. I have personally witnessed this to be true. Do we feel like we have to BECOME more like men to hold power and respect (especially in the workplace)? If so, then perhaps Clara's theory *does* still hold true to some extent.

Another point for discussion...why is it that lesbian couples so often make use of strap-on dildos? Surely they could give and receive pleasure without having to employ such phallic assistance. Could the use of this artificial penis be symbolic of denoting who is "in charge" in the relationship? I bring this up because I have one online lesbian friend who has told me that it is ALWAYS she who uses the strap-on with her partner...and NEVER the other way around. I found it interesting.

Any more thoughts on the subject would be greatly welcomed.

(Cheffy...you are one of a kind...don't ever be anyone else but YOU, hon.)

 

[Jade]

I always wanted to be Lovely Latina......


Interesting thread! I've never wanted to be a man. Women have so many more options - we can wear pants OR skirts OR shorts. We can choose strong professional leadership roles OR stay home and mother the kids - and we aren't penalized either way. To this day, men are still expected to "act like men" - a man crying is still a shameful thing. A man who stays at home to watch the kids while his wife's at work will still be stigmatized by his community.

OK
14> I'd love to stay home and look after kids but I cant deal with thier shit(literally)

You know, once they are potty trained you don't have to deal with that anymore! (hehe)

But seriously, the stay at home man thing is getting really big over here among the yuppies, it is pretty interesting.
WE have always talked about if we could afford it, he would do it... he actually wants to (although we are FAR from being yuppies!! lol). Anyway, the men that do that get a LOT of attention around here but suprisingly (and appreciatively) it is all positive!

 

[Gaucho]

Re: Back on track

Personally, I think that women are the true source of power in the universe

Women are goddesses and, as such, worthy of worship

In my opinion, to suggest that a woman on this board is not fuckable would be to denigrate all of you - I mean, who do we think we are, anyway

LOL muchisimo!!

Gaucho, sweetie...how can I not say anything but a most heartfelt "Welcome to the Board Oh Wise (Bullshitting?? *LOL*) One!" No, but seriously, great post and welcome! (Pssst...you can get up now.)

Oh, but I like it down there! Are you sure you want me to stop? And no, I wouldn't shit you (or shit on you, in case you haven't read my "What's Taboo?" thread).

And now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to tossing my wankshaft. I can't wait to see if that white thing curves to the left or the right.