Where is the ambiguity?

[Guest]

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[drksideofthemoon]

I've recieved several coments on stories mentioning that the endings would have them thinking for a long time. I've gotten a few that didn't like the loose ends. Some people like things to wrap up all tidy and neat. Personally, the best stories I've read leave the reader with a few things to wonder about for a while. Same with movies. I like the ambiguous endings. How 'bout you?

It all depends on the story I guess. Some stories call for a complete and unequivocal finish, while others do better with something that keeps a person wondering.

 

[3113]

I've recieved several coments on stories mentioning that the endings would have them thinking for a long time. I've gotten a few that didn't like the loose ends. Some people like things to wrap up all tidy and neat. Personally, the best stories I've read leave the reader with a few things to wonder about for a while. Same with movies. I like the ambiguous endings. How 'bout you?

Can you give us some examples of what you consider "ambiguous" endings--ones you like?

Frankly, I get annoyed at ambiguous ending for the sake of being ambiguous. Ambiguous seems to be equated with "arty" and somehow being smarter and better. But often, it's just pretentious bullshit. And that makes it as bad as tacking on a happy ending just to have a happy ending or a tragic/sad ending just to have a tragic/sad ending.

 

[Guest]

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[3113]

My apologies, I should have been clearer. When I asked for examples, I meant movies which have the ambiguous endings that you like, ones I might know. I'd read the stories you posted, but I don't have the time at the moment--and it's difficult on a first read to know if one doesn't like the ending or the whole story. Better a familiar movie where I can say, "I didn't like the movie but thought the ending was right" or "I like the movie, but hate the ending."

And I like endings that are right for the story. Ambiguous, happy or tragic...but ones which suit the story. Not ones where the writer puts on an ending just to fuck with the reader.

Putting it another way, I don't like it when the writer insists on a certain ending for the sake of their reputation as a writer--rather than letting the story decide the ending. If it doesn't fit, doesn't feel like the right ending for the story...then I don't like it. If it fits and feels right, then I'll put up with almost any kind of ending from sugary-saccharine, to painfully-tearful to walking-off-into-the-mysterious-mist....

 

[WyoD_S]

Frankly, I get annoyed at ambiguous ending for the sake of being ambiguous. Ambiguous seems to be equated with "arty" and somehow being smarter and better. But often, it's just pretentious bullshit.

I could not agree more.

I've read several novels that were written in this manner, and have made a point of never reading another from those authors. The same applies here on Lit.

As for movies, there are certain directors who annoy the hell out of me with their 'style'. I avoid those like the plague no matter what the movie is or who the 'stars' are.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I've recieved several coments on stories mentioning that the endings would have them thinking for a long time. I've gotten a few that didn't like the loose ends. Some people like things to wrap up all tidy and neat. Personally, the best stories I've read leave the reader with a few things to wonder about for a while. Same with movies. I like the ambiguous endings. How 'bout you?

I don't like an ambiguous ending, when the ambiguity is related to the central source of conflict. Neither do I like the ones where loose ends are left, it smacks of laziness on the author's part to me. That said, I don't mind it when the story leaves the true "ending" open.

So if your source of conflict is, for example, the prtoag's lover's ex returning and rying to regain his former spouse, I want that resolved at the end. It's perfectly acceptable to leave me hanging on wheter of not this difficulty presuages a failure of the relationship at a later date over another issue.


In a conflict driven story, if you don't resolve the conflict, I, as reader, feel like I haave wasted my time.

that caveat to this is the same as with the many sins of writing discussed in Shang's thread. A good writer can leave the central conflict unresolved and can frame it in a way that still makes the story a satisfying read. Obviously tow, serials, sagas and trilogys have leeway to leave books open to all sorts of ambiguity, on the premise the conflict will be resolved in next weeks exciting episode or in next year's book 3.

 

[RogueLurker]

As much as I hate to admit it, I rather like ambiguous endings: in moderation and as long as it fits with the story/genre.

Having a full blown romance with an ambigous ending sucks ... the whole idea of a romance story is that everyone overcomes whatever conflicts have been generated and hopefully live happily ever after (Pick a Shakespeare romance, anyone ...even Romeo and Juliet has a solid if not happy ending). Having a science fiction distopia story with an ambiguous ending can be quite effective. (Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale)

There is a line of course ... if it is badly done, then an ambiguous ending can come off as pretentious, or like the writer got stuck and had no idea of how to end things, or (worse) a set up for a sequel (mostly in the movie world).

But an ambiguous ending that is done well can complete a story better than a pat happy ending. To me, a well done ambiguous ending makes the movie/story stay with me, it forces me to think about the story, the characters, the plot rather than spoon feeding me something that says that everything works out and they all live happily ever after (or die horribly ...depending on what the plot is). When an ambiguous ending is done properly ... it just feels right. Am I pissed that I don't know that the lived happily ever after ... yeah. But I'm so engrossed in thinking about the story, it really doesn't matter as much.

Like Drkside said, it really depends on the overall story ... sometime a complete ending is necessary, where all the loose ends are tied up and you know where all the characters stand. I like those kinds of stories .. I'm a hopeless romantic at times. But sometimes the nature of the story isn't clean and clear ... sometimes the only way to do it and the reader/viewer justice is to go with an ambiguous end.

 

[Guest]

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[Colleen Thomas]

Ok, let me clarify, and this may be a poor example but it's the best one I can think of that doesn't require someone to go read something:

Total Recall - Was it real or was he still in the "Vacation" memory implanted by Recall? If it was the Recall vacation, was he really stuck in it or was that all part of the vacation plot?

It has a happy ending that seems neat and tidy on the surface but the underlying ambiguity leaves you thinking about it long after the movie is over.

LOL

*HUGS*

Have to remember you're talking to a pop culture luddite in me Darn. I haven't seen it

The main reason I didn't cite movie examples is, I ahven't seen very many movies. I was responding very generally.

 

[Liar]

I've recieved several coments on stories mentioning that the endings would have them thinking for a long time. I've gotten a few that didn't like the loose ends. Some people like things to wrap up all tidy and neat. Personally, the best stories I've read leave the reader with a few things to wonder about for a while. Same with movies. I like the ambiguous endings. How 'bout you?

I'd say that I don't like an ambigous ending that leaves the main chunk of the questions raised in the main plot unanswered. However, I do like a story that after answering the big questions, hints at new ones. A good end can also be a good beginning of a story in the audience's imagination. Not another dramatic problem that mkes it a cliffhanger, but a few possibilities of interresting development.

For instance... I remember that when I rented the pretty entertaining cliché extravaganza Independence Day some years ago, and all the Evil Space Monsters were defeated, I thought "Ok, now there are hundreds of frickin' huge crashed space ships all over the planet. I wonder what'll happen with those."

 

[Guest]

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[cloudy]

Several of my stories have sort of ambiguous endings. I've gotten comments saying they hated it, and then comments saying they liked it.

I like the main things tied up, mostly, but the favorable comments I've gotten have said I've made the reader think, and that's a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

No worries, Colly. The read thing wasn't being directed at you. I'm afraid any examples I give are not going to be popular works. That was just the best I could think of that people might have actually seen.

I was just trying to get a serious discussion going and wasn't clear enough on the subject matter.

Looks like I've failed again.

I think you've got a serious discussion going. My response was serious at lest.

It's all in where you place the emphasis of the ambiguity to me.

Using my limited movie experience. The legend of Bagger Vance is one where the central conflict (Protag vs. himself) is resolved to my staisfaction. Whatever damage seeing the carnage of the great war did to him, he has worked through it by the end. But at the end, ambiguity remains. What or who was baggar vance? A ghost? An angel? An ecentric caddy? Who was the best golfer? A three way tie hasn't resovled that. Does he get the girl? Who knows?

The unresolved question keep you thinking abou tthe work long after you have seen it, but they are ancialry conflicts to the one that drives the story. to me that's fine.

If he had won the tournament, got the girl, lived happily ever after and Baggar had ascended to heave to get his wings, but themain character still hadn't resolved his inner conflict, then it would have been a most unsatisfactory ending to me. Far less ambiguity, but the one left in that scenario is precisely the one I don't think you can leave. the conflict that has driven the work is unresolved there.

 

[Guest]

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[3113]

Ah. That's what you mean by ambiguity!

It has a happy ending that seems neat and tidy on the surface but the underlying ambiguity leaves you thinking about it long after the movie is over.

The Recall example helps me answer the question.

If you're talking Philip K. Dick, then I've no trouble with an ambiguous ending. But then, the whole IDEA of a PKD story is it's ambiguity. PKD explores the question of what is reality--how do we know what is real or not? And it's important that there be no answer because that would erase the question that the story is exploring.

Or take, for example, Stanislaw Lem. In the Investagation the detective is trying to solve a mystery of why bodies seem to be getting up, walking, and ending up elsewhere. No one sees them walking...yet that's the only viable explaination. If they are walking, why? And why does it stop?

Lem offers a possible explaination--that the laws of the universe have changed for a moment and this is why it's happening. But we never know for sure if that's what has happened.

This ending is acceptable to me because the whole STORY is about NOT KNOWING. The theme and message of the story is that some things can't be known with any certaintly. We can gather up all the facts and yet get no real conclusion from them.

In these instances, the ambiguity reinforces the theme, plot, ideas, explorations of the story. But if the ambiguity did NOT do that, then it wouldn't work for me. If, as someone else pointed out, there was some sort of Romance, a woman choosing between two men, and the story ends: She glanced over at one, then the other, "I choose....."

End.

I'd never read that writer again. Because they're just fucking with the reader. Even if the story is about a woman's ambiguity, the ending has to be about her getting over that ambiguity. Have her pick neither if picking one won't work--but to leave her decision dangling is a *conceit*...not a real ending necessary given the themes and questions, etc. that the story raises and focuses on.

Does that clarify?

 

[Guest]

sometimes, ambiguity pisses me off. and yet...
take gone with the wind for example. epic! i've read it a dozen times if not more. mitchel leaves the reader hanging at the end of a squillion page long novel. (my perception)
however, it must have worked or i wouldnt have read the book so many times.

my point, and i do have one, is that just as many others here have said...it depends on the story.
heres a bad/good example.
the movie Clue has several different possible endings. you get to pick which one you like best. tres cool!
there are even books out there where you read a section and then pick what sceanario you like best and the ending is based on the pages you read to get there. it must have worked well because its a very popular series. (blondie is too lazy to look them up)

as long as you dont get stuck into one way of writing, does it really matter?
nah, didnt think so.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I love a story that leaves me some work to do. I want to play. I'm with Dranoel on this one.

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

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[BlackShanglan]

Thanks, Shang.

I was beginning to wonder if anyone really understood what at.

I didn't mean it as a story that just ends without any kind of closure, but one that just leaves you wondering about certain things. Some doors left open for for the reader to venture through on their own.

Hell, if I was looking for something to keep me occupied without having to think about anything I'd just watch tv.

Amen. I think Malachite hit the nail on the head in looking at one of my older pieces - she told me that the chief flaw was that I had not left any work for the reader to do. That was a light bulb moment. It's tragic that someone who loves symbolist literature as much as I do had not noticed the enormous fun a reader has when allowed to be part of the act of creation. Indeed, I think it's a great part of the tried and true "show don't tell" mantra; showing lets the reader fill in, while telling tries to exert total control - and hardly ever works.

Hmmm. Perhaps that's the issue with a good non-finite ending. It shows rather than tells the undefined areas in the way a good story shows rather than tells emotions. It gives us enough to work out multiple potential or congruent meanings without limiting us to a single one or doing all of the work for us. Possibly?

Shanglan

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Amen. I think Malachite hit the nail on the head in looking at one of my older pieces - she told me that the chief flaw was that I had not left any work for the reader to do. That was a light bulb moment. It's tragic that someone who loves symbolist literature as much as I do had not noticed the enormous fun a reader has when allowed to be part of the act of creation. Indeed, I think it's a great part of the tried and true "show don't tell" mantra; showing lets the reader fill in, while telling tries to exert total control - and hardly ever works.

Hmmm. Perhaps that's the issue with a good non-finite ending. It shows rather than tells the undefined areas in the way a good story shows rather than tells emotions. It gives us enough to work out multiple potential or congruent meanings without limiting us to a single one or doing all of the work for us. Possibly?

Shanglan

I wonder if perhaps this is part of the reason so many of you are authors in their own minds, while I am a stroyteller in my own? I want the story told, to carry the reader along and to let them just enjoy it. Writers find telling anathema, and wish for the reader to have a much larger part in the process.

it's an interesting point to consider.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

As much as I hate to admit it, I rather like ambiguous endings: in moderation and as long as it fits with the story/genre.

Having a full blown romance with an ambigous ending sucks ... the whole idea of a romance story is that everyone overcomes whatever conflicts have been generated and hopefully live happily ever after (Pick a Shakespeare romance, anyone ...even Romeo and Juliet has a solid if not happy ending). Having a science fiction distopia story with an ambiguous ending can be quite effective. (Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale)

There is a line of course ... if it is badly done, then an ambiguous ending can come off as pretentious, or like the writer got stuck and had no idea of how to end things, or (worse) a set up for a sequel (mostly in the movie world).

But an ambiguous ending that is done well can complete a story better than a pat happy ending. To me, a well done ambiguous ending makes the movie/story stay with me, it forces me to think about the story, the characters, the plot rather than spoon feeding me something that says that everything works out and they all live happily ever after (or die horribly ...depending on what the plot is). When an ambiguous ending is done properly ... it just feels right. Am I pissed that I don't know that the lived happily ever after ... yeah. But I'm so engrossed in thinking about the story, it really doesn't matter as much.

Like Drkside said, it really depends on the overall story ... sometime a complete ending is necessary, where all the loose ends are tied up and you know where all the characters stand. I like those kinds of stories .. I'm a hopeless romantic at times. But sometimes the nature of the story isn't clean and clear ... sometimes the only way to do it and the reader/viewer justice is to go with an ambiguous end.

Nothing to say, just marking this for future reference...

 

[Guest]

I used to be ambiguous and stuff but I had a doctor make them smaller cause they hurt my back and stuff but their still like D cups and stuff so thats not really small but their not as big as they used to be and thats good cause I sleep better too.

Debbie

 

[RogueLurker]

Nothing to say, just marking this for future reference...

 

[RogueLurker]

I used to be ambiguous and stuff but I had a doctor make them smaller cause they hurt my back and stuff but their still like D cups and stuff so thats not really small but their not as big as they used to be and thats good cause I sleep better too.

Debbie

I thought ambiguous meant you could write with either hand ....