When the category is a spoiler

[jolly_rogering]

Hi folks. I'm new to submitting to LT, and could use a bit of advice. I recently submitted a nonconsent/reluctance story. It clearly doesn't belong in any other category. The story would be more effective if the first nonconsensual event came as a bit of a shock to the reader. But that's not really possible, because given the category, readers will be on the lookout for such activity. Is there any way to avoid this problem? Thanks for any thoughts anyone might have.

 

[sr71plt]

Not that I know of, and it is a problem. You also need to reveal these things in the tags and some readers look at them first. It's just unfortunate.

 

[HeyAll]

If there's N/C, it's not a good idea to make it a surprise.

1) People who didn't expect it will get very turned off.

2) If there's N/C, you want to advertise it. It's part of "marketing" your story in a way that attracts the N/C crowd, therefor you'll get more views.

 

[lovecraft68]

Hi folks. I'm new to submitting to LT, and could use a bit of advice. I recently submitted a nonconsent/reluctance story. It clearly doesn't belong in any other category. The story would be more effective if the first nonconsensual event came as a bit of a shock to the reader. But that's not really possible, because given the category, readers will be on the lookout for such activity. Is there any way to avoid this problem? Thanks for any thoughts anyone might have.

People gravitate towards the category with their kink.

If it has non con then that is wheere you want to put it, it would get flamed mostly everywhere else.

yes it sucks you lose your surprise, but not as bad as a boatload of one bombs and nasty comments would.

And from what I have seen if the story is "pure non con" with no enjoyment by the "victim" you may get it anyway.

Odd people would flame rape stories in a section that implies it. Another lit enigma.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Hi folks. I'm new to submitting to LT, and could use a bit of advice. I recently submitted a nonconsent/reluctance story. It clearly doesn't belong in any other category. The story would be more effective if the first nonconsensual event came as a bit of a shock to the reader. But that's not really possible, because given the category, readers will be on the lookout for such activity. Is there any way to avoid this problem? Thanks for any thoughts anyone might have.

I don't think there's an easy answer to this. On the one hand, yes, category can be a spoiler and Lit doesn't offer an easy way around that.

On the other, no matter how well-written your story is, surprise nonconsent is likely to be very upsetting to some readers. What you lose in surprise value you gain in not triggering unpleasant experiences for people who might have RL histories of rape etc.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yep-- we prefer to know ahead of time what we are getting into in any story, and we tag and warn accordingly.

Speaking for myself, I always did prefer that, I used to read the inside cover of every book, back in the day, and maybe skim through a few chapters fore and aft, before I committed to buying it.

Now I tend to check in at Goodreads.com before I download.

 

[slyc_willie]

About the only way I could see it being done would be if there was enough content to place the story in a related category, such as Erotic Horror. Readers there may not be too jarred by the non-con aspect, because they are already expecting to read something that would scare them or turn their stomach.

But there would have to be more going on in the story than just non-consensual sex.

 

[lovecraft68]

Loving wives is always an option. Those lunatics have nothing against non con over there. Unless its against the man of course.

 

[sr71plt]

About the only way I could see it being done would be if there was enough content to place the story in a related category, such as Erotic Horror. Readers there may not be too jarred by the non-con aspect, because they are already expecting to read something that would scare them or turn their stomach.

But there would have to be more going on in the story than just non-consensual sex.

There's this possibility too. With it being in the tags, it may not be spoiler, because the tags are behind, not in front of the stories.

That said, erasing the element of surprise certainly can deaden a story, and the surprise element is a basic one to story writing. I'm not that supportive of pantywaists reading here who need to be babysat because they are so squeamish on sexual topics and elements that they can't just be adults and click out of something that suddenly isn't to their tastes. I think perhaps they shouldn't be on this Web site if they are that sensitive and can't take responsibility for themselves.

 

[lovecraft68]

People aren't squeamish, they have things they like and do not like.

If you hate shrimp and someone gives you a big seafood platter and while you're eating it you get a nice bite of shrimp that was buried in there you're going to spit it out.

There are categories for a reason. Otherwise there would be "erotica" and the one bombing and trolling would never stop from people saying "I didn't know there would be gay sex in there or femdom or golden showers.

The categories guide the reader towards what they want.

I see no issue with on consent going in non consent, That is where the crowd is that wants to read it.

As for surprise? Let's face it we've discussed tropes and cliches until its gone out of style most readers here seem happy to get the same basic story over and over its what they enjoy.

Look at Interracial or incest is it ruining the readers fun when the white man picks up the black woman or a mother wants her son? No, because that's why they picked that category!

Non con has a squick factor and it shouldn't be shoved in some other category.

Now the author can put a disclaimer. "Even though this is in such and such it contains elements of...." but again that ruins the surprise.

Also keep in mind that the site has final say and if the non con is prevalent that's where its going.

You can have a "surprise" and a bunch of flaming or "tip your hat" and get some decent votes and feedback while appealing to the right audience.

Also if the author is creative enough things can still have a good spin. Not all NC stories are the same and a good author can put their "stamp" on anything.

 

[SecondCircle]

The idea of a "surprise" category has been entertained before by a few of us, where you just pick stories by title and whatever happens happens. That's all it was though. An idea that wouldn't be made reality, and probably wouldn't appeal to the majority of lit readers anyway. Because people get butthurt instead of just cringing and back clicking.

It does kind of suck that you can't make those elements a surprise. In the trans genre, its never a surprise that she has a surprise. Erotic horror? Yeah something "scary" is supposed to happen, so I'll keep my reader's eye open. Noncon? Same deal.

I personal would love a bit of surprise here and there. They are easier to put in longer stories because so much happens. Not much room in short stories such as the ones on lit. And like LC said, not everybody likes these surprises.

I think one way you can do it, other than the way slyc described, is to put the shock in how it happens or the way the non con comes about. There's too many stories here that follow a tiresome formula. Break that formula over your knee, give the category a good "normal" story that suddenly derails into non con. Sometimes for me, the way something happens or the vividness and emotion with which it is described are as shocking as the happening itself.

In horror, I gotta find different ways to disturb the senses and twist the mind all the time. I can't just keep putting the same monsters in the dark all the time. Its the same element (fear) with different circumstances that catch people unaware.

Try the same thing with your story. Just find new and inventive storylines and characters that are "shocking" to find them ending up in a non con situation.

Um... if any of that made sense.

 

[slyc_willie]

I think maybe a "Thriller" category wouldn't be too much of a stretch, with the understanding that stories in that category may or may not include such themes as incest, non-con, erotic horror and so on. It would probably still be too vague for a lot of readers who just want something to stroke to, or for those who are squeamish. Still, I'm willing to bet there's an appreciable audience at Lit that would enjoy reading stories when they don't know what sexual kinks to expect from them.

 

[sr71plt]

I'll likely continue not to broadcast my surprises in stories and give the reader on a porn site a chance to grow into "big people" pants. My surprises are rarely (if ever) concerned with nonconsent/rape--more likely that it was made to look like that and wasn't. The last one I had a problem with how to tag and identify had lesbian and incest as the surprise, and if I didn't keep it as a surprise (although I put it in the tags) there would have been no reason to even write the story, it would have been so deflated.

 

[3113]

I'm not that supportive of pantywaists reading here who need to be babysat because they are so squeamish on sexual topics and elements that they can't just be adults and click out of something that suddenly isn't to their tastes.

But that's the whole point, isn't it? Not to protect the squeamish or babysit people, but to make sure that they don't click off story after story after story because it's not to their taste.

I can and have read incest and LW stories. But I don't want to. I like gay male. Why should I have to click through uncategorized stories rejecting those not to my taste because a gay-male-writer wants to maintain the surprise of a "straight" guy finding love in the arms of another man? I've read that story and it's not that big a surprise, certainly not worth the risk that I'll never find it and read it. The point being: this site is too big and there's too much material to wade through. If stories weren't categorized for surprise purposes, I--and other readers--would be spending more time clicking off stories that weren't to our taste than reading those that were to our taste

Of course, we could suggest to Laurel a "surprise" category where a reader never knows what they'll get. Or better yet, a "surprise" generator which gives you a story from the vault without category or tag. But in the end, I think it important to remember that the best stories still surprise even if we know, from the category, what's sexually coming around the corner. It may be no surprise that the straight guy finds love with another man, but it can be very surprising when we learn that the other man is married and going back to his wife. Categorizing may hinder some surprises, but it doesn't hinder surprise.

 

[sr71plt]

But that's the whole point, isn't it? Not to protect the squeamish or babysit people, but to make sure that they don't click off story after story after story because it's not to their taste.

Well, no, that's not my point at all. I don't want to have to hold their hand on sex matters on a porn board. It's entirely up to them on whether they click out or why.

I write what I want to write here. The reader can take full responsibility for what they read here.

And I do think it's childish squeamishness we're talking about and I don't cater to that on a porn board. If I've mistakeningly found myself in an ax murder movie, I have legs and know where the exit is.

It doesn't take readers long to figure out where I will go and where I won't go in the stories I write--and I do honestly fill in the tag boxes. But I don't include defensive slugs on the front of the stories. Anytime they want to choose to stop reading me is regretable, but that's their decision. I'm not going to write pabulum for votes or for folks who wandered into the wrong type of Web site. (Gawd, haven't you noticed that the signature category for this Web site is Incest and that those looking for stories invariably are looking for the raunchiest versions of Incest? That's what this Web site is most known for.)

When I see discussions on a porn Web site forum by these "you must protect me from the world" posters, I have visions of helicopter parents hovering over them into their thirties and cutting the crusts off of their sandwiches for them. I was pretty much told this by a poster the other day who had "slut" in her account name. Talk about pretenses.

I do think there are a lot of folks here who want to dumb the stories down across the board to match their inability to grow up or to separate fantasy from real life. We have such "what I don't like" threads appear here almost weekly.

 

[Weird Harold]

Hi folks. I'm new to submitting to LT, and could use a bit of advice. I recently submitted a nonconsent/reluctance story. It clearly doesn't belong in any other category. The story would be more effective if the first nonconsensual event came as a bit of a shock to the reader. But that's not really possible, because given the category, readers will be on the lookout for such activity. Is there any way to avoid this problem? Thanks for any thoughts anyone might have.

If you want to write a pure non-consent story that doesn't fit in the non-consent/reluctant category, your only real option is to expand the story to novel or novella length and put it in Novels & Novellas.

Laurel might still override your category choice in that case, but Novels and Novellas is the only category that isn't some sort of spoiler about content.

 

[slyc_willie]

My most recent series was posted in Erotic Horror. The only disclaimer I included was the following:

(Author's note: this story deals with some very gritty and harsh subject matter. This is not for those looking for a straightforward sex story. There are many themes that some people might find objectionable, but to reveal them might give away parts of the story prematurely. If you continue reading, please keep this warning in mind.)

I think this puts the reader into the frame of mind that there will be some disturbing scenes in the story, without giving away the exact nature of those scenes. Throughout the eight chapters posted, there are a couple of graphically depicted murders, the strong implications of others, non-consensual sex, torture, and violence. There is also incest, but it is not portrayed with in the typical light enjoyed by most such stories on Lit. It's not an overall happy tale.

First-time readers who pick up a copy of Stephen King's Misery, or Cormac MacArthy's No Country For Old Men, or practically anything by John Saul or Brian Lumley aren't given a clue as to the nature of the story other than the fact that it was on the shelf in the Horror section of their local bookstore. The back jacket or inside leafs will give them further clues, but those are always vague. The purpose is to set the tone for the reader without giving anything away, and relishing those "shock value" moments in which the reader comes across a pivotal, violent, disturbing scene and rears back while slapping a hand over their mouth.

Basic human curiosity does the rest, unless it is overridden by the disgust factor. In the latter case, most readers will close the book, or, in our case, back-click and look for something else. A few will go on to finish and punish the evil Lit author with a bad vote. If you're writing in this vein, I would think you should expect less than stellar scores because of that.

In the former case, however, the author will be rewarded by those readers who appreciate the elements of the story and felt the sort of morbid titillation readers of such genres do when reading these stories.

Jolly wants to spring the non-consensual part of the story on his readers without making them expect it. He's going for, I assume, that bit of shock value. Trouble is, the way Lit is set up, it caters to the expectations of readers and categorizes stories based on their most obvious content, which can often give away the most crucial aspects of the story. This was done, I presume, when the majority of Lit stories were mainly light-hearted sex romps. Nothing wrong with that. But along the way, Lit attracted those who were more serious about their writing and wanted to evoke the same sort of reactions from readers that successful authors who specialize in shock value do.

And in those cases, Lit has a few unintentional (or so I believe) stumbling blocks. To achieve what he wants, Jolly would have to wrap his wolf in the hide of a larger wolf, in order to cloud the issue of the nature of his story while framing it in the context of "you (the reader) are going to read something that might shock you."

Go for it, Jolly. Just be prepared for the backlash.

 

[sr71plt]

I think that's a great point, Slyc, and may be what irks me about this. The mainstream doesn't babysit for the reader the way many here expect to be coddled. It expects the reader to take responsibility for him/herself. I see no reason that an author on a porn site should feel obligated to be any more of a helicopter parent.

On the issue of ruined surprises, I noted that Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" had been mentioned elsewhere on the forum as a superlative story. How superlative would that have been if she'd had to put a slug on the front of it warning "Don't read this if you hyperventilate at ritual murder" just because readers won't take responsibility for their own reading?

 

[Stella_Omega]

... other than the fact that it was on the shelf in the Horror section of their local bookstore.

On the internet it would be in the horror category.

What's the difference?

 

[sr71plt]

I don't think you've kept up with where the discussion is, Stella.

Besides the mainstream bookstores ironically don't have the taboos that this porn site does. B&N has a healthy-sized category called "Rape Erotica."

 

[slyc_willie]

On the internet it would be in the horror category.

What's the difference?

The difference is that the category of "horror" is a vague one. What kind of horror is it? Is it zombie apocalypse? Is it a serial killer torturing and raping women? Is it a demon from hell slaughtering old people? All of the above would fit, and there's no obligation on the part of the author to provide deliberate clues as to the nature of the story.

On Lit, the category of Non-Consent/Reluctance is a give-away. It's specific to the nature of the story, indicating the most obvious theme. There's not much room for the writer to surprise his or her readers. But in order to mask a story with a non-con element to it, the writer has to incorporate a larger element in order to place it in a different but related category.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't think you've kept up with where the discussion is, Stella.

You don't think that putting a book on the horror bookshelf doesn't signify anything to the reader? You wouldn't put Pet Sematary in the animal stories section.

The difference is that the category of "horror" is a vague one. What kind of horror is it? Is it zombie apocalypse? Is it a serial killer torturing and raping women? Is it a demon from hell slaughtering old people? All of the above would fit, and there's no obligation on the part of the author to provide deliberate clues as to the nature of the story.

My experience is that there have always been 'warnings' and spoilers available, via cover art, inner cover blurbs, reviews, recommended lists and book banning-- what have you. There were warnings galore for "The Lottery" back when it was stuck into my Middle School English textbook. (Speaking solely and only for myself, I was glad of it, because I did not like surprise murders in my reading at age 14. And I still don't. )

Babysitting the reader is not new.

 

[slyc_willie]

You don't think that putting a book on the horror bookshelf doesn't signify anything to the reader? You wouldn't put Pet Sematary in the animal stories section.

My experience is that there have always been 'warnings' and spoilers available, via cover art, inner cover blurbs, reviews, recommended lists and book banning-- what have you. There were warnings galore for "The Lottery" back when it was stuck into my Middle School English textbook. (Speaking solely and only for myself, I was glad of it, because I did not like surprise murders in my reading at age 14. And I still don't. )

Babysitting the reader is not new.

But those warnings were always vague, and intentionally so. They give just enough to indicate to the reader that there may be some controversial content.

Many years ago, I read a series by Stephen R. Donaldson centered around a character named Thomas Covenant. In the first book, Thomas is described as having leprosy, and Donaldson goes into detail describing the man's affliction. Thomas becomes transported to a different world, where he meets a lovely young woman who heals him through the use of something called heartloam. It cures his leprosy and, more than that, makes him virile once again. Thomas ends up raping the woman in a fit of selfish joy. The scene is not erotically detailed, but it becomes an important part of the plot.

Now, nowhere on the cover, the back, or the inside leafs was there a disclaimer that the book included a rape scene. But it was there, and it was important to the overall story.

In this case, there was no babysitting for the reader. And the series turned out to be very popular.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Now, nowhere on the cover, the back, or the inside leafs was there a disclaimer that the book included a rape scene. But it was there, and it was important to the overall story.

In this case, there was no babysitting for the reader. And the series turned out to be very popular.

It's not really about popularity, though. Peanut butter is very popular but we still flag food that contains peanuts because it has the potential to really ruin somebody's day. I'm reliably informed that post-rape PTSD flashbacks are a very unpleasant thing, and since it's quite a common trigger for people I'd prefer to make life easier for those who want to avoid that.

FWIW, I know people who enjoy fantasy but are very reluctant to try new fantasy authors because the genre is particularly prone to rape-y content. It's become something of a cliche, to the point where Seanan McGuire relates being asked by a reader when her female protagonists were going to be raped - not "if" - because it's mandatory these days, y'know?

 

[Bramblethorn]

My experience is that there have always been 'warnings' and spoilers available, via cover art, inner cover blurbs, reviews, recommended lists and book banning-- what have you. There were warnings galore for "The Lottery" back when it was stuck into my Middle School English textbook. (Speaking solely and only for myself, I was glad of it, because I did not like surprise murders in my reading at age 14. And I still don't. )

Also, on the murder-vs-rape thing: I have never lost a friend or family member or even an acquaintance to murder. I'm having trouble even thinking of friends-of-friends here.

Friends who've been raped? I could name half a dozen off the top of my head, plus one who had a narrow escape recently... and those are just the ones who talk about it.