When did the ideal woman turn into a waif?

[CharleyH]

Actually spining off of Pure's thread a bit, but WHEN DID Western culture determine beautiful women were supposed to be skinny?

I can't really find any history of skinny women being considered gorgeous, except in the last - maybe - 75 years? Any thoughts?

What do you think as an, or about ... bigger women?

 

[tanyachrs]

We could see the trend towards more fit women being more attractive as positive. Back when those Rubenesque figures were so popular it was impossible for a woman to do much in the way of exercise. She couldn't play sports, she had to be covered up, and no one imagined a use for a woman who was strong or had endurance or flexibility, so long as she was able to do her chores. Now women are allowed to make the most of their bodies in a variety of ways and we, as a society, have come to see that not only is David beautiful but a female version of David, muscles and all, can be beautiful too.

Besides, I don't think the average man really wants women as skinny as the average fashion model is. Starlets are that skinny because the clothes hang better that way and TV adds 15 pounds blah, blah, blah. I haven't met many men who don't like at least some curve on a woman's body.

 

[cantdog]

I think the trend is maybe 50 years old, not 75. The ideal had more to do with tits, 75 years ago. Monroe, Turner, Mansfield, Van Doren. At the same time as the ideal went skinnier, it also went younger.

 

[CharleyH]

We could see the trend towards more fit women being more attractive as positive. Back when those Rubenesque figures were so popular it was impossible for a woman to do much in the way of exercise. She couldn't play sports, she had to be covered up, and no one imagined a use for a woman who was strong or had endurance or flexibility, so long as she was able to do her chores. Now women are allowed to make the most of their bodies in a variety of ways and we, as a society, have come to see that not only is David beautiful but a female version of David, muscles and all, can be beautiful too.

Besides, I don't think the average man really wants women as skinny as the average fashion model is. Starlets are that skinny because the clothes hang better that way and TV adds 15 pounds blah, blah, blah. I haven't met many men who don't like at least some curve on a woman's body.

So are you saying Women's Lib paved the way for waifs and for skinny chicks to be desired by men?

 

[Trombonus]

I'm personally not attracted to skeletally thin girls, or girls with tons of make up as a matter of fact.

Here's something that makes me very sad. There's one girl in our music department who, in my opinion, has always been the most beautiful girl there. When I returned to school this past September, I heard a lot of people talking about how she'd put on weight. I never would have noticed had no one pointed it out to me, but I thought she looked fantastic, even better than usual. Still, this was a common topic whenever her name came up, and I felt so bad because she's so beautiful, and all anyone could talk about is that she was a bit bigger. It's not like she was huge either, just less thin. One of my best friends asked me who I thought was the hottest girl in band (we're college guys, give us a break), and I told him it was that girl, and his response was "even though she's put on a lot of weight?" This is one of, if not the nicest and sweetest guys I know, but even he went there.

She was attractive to me because she seemed normal for once, not like she was cut out of a magazine ad. Sometimes my fellow men shame me.

It sucks being compared to other people, but it sucks more to be compared to yourself.

 

[CharleyH]

I think the trend is maybe 50 years old, not 75. The ideal had more to do with tits, 75 years ago. Monroe, Turner, Mansfield, Van Doren. At the same time as the ideal went skinnier, it also went younger.

I know - I was reaching a bit. They were a bit buxom still. I guess my more pointed question is 'WHO' made waifs popular? Twiggy was the first I heard of as a kid, but I am not sure if she was the first waif?

Also, are runway skinny models really that 'wanted' by men as we may see in tabloids? And is it truly an ideal standard that women really want to attain?

(edit to add: As for tits? LOL

 

[TheeGoatPig]

I think everyone is getting off topic...

It seems to me there were quite a few lookers in the 30s and 40s that were quite thin. Maybe not as rail thin as the supermodels of today, but a lot of them didn't look to be more than 120 pounds to me. I don't know any names, I do watch the occasional older movie but I don't know who is in them.

 

[English Lady]

Wasn't twiggy one of the first ulta thin models? She came on the scene in the 1960's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twiggy

 

[CharleyH]

I think everyone is getting off topic...

It seems to me there were quite a few lookers in the 30s and 40s that were quite thin. Maybe not as rail thin as the supermodels of today, but a lot of them didn't look to be more than 120 pounds to me. I don't know any names, I do watch the occasional older movie but I don't know who is in them.

The 20's through 40's especially had an intriguing 'hour glass' ideal and corsets persist today amongst some. I think skinny waists, but big hips were the order of that time-zone?

 

[CharleyH]

Wasn't twiggy one of the first ulta thin models? She came on the scene in the 1960's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twiggy

Well, I was thinking she was the first, but was not quite sure. So what happened to the thought of bigger women? Why suddenly were they not gorgeous? I recall Hugh Heffner being quoted as saying something like "No fat woman will ever be in the Playboy mansion." I recall it and thought, well, kind of weird.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I think the trend is maybe 50 years old, not 75. The ideal had more to do with tits, 75 years ago. Monroe, Turner, Mansfield, Van Doren. At the same time as the ideal went skinnier, it also went younger.

I don't think it was even that long ago. In the fifties, the ideal women were the ones you mentioned and others, such as Bardot, Loren and other zoftig ladies. I think the first waif to achieve fame was Twiggy in the sixties. Men did not consider her to be attractive, although her face was pretty enough. They made jokes about her skinniness and about that of fashion models and others. However, women have never respected the opinions of ordinary men when it came to beauty, so the trend was on.

Even now, if you were to show a large group of men pictures of Kate Winslett and Calista Flockhart (Ally McBeal) and ask which was better looking, almost all would choose Kate. However, their opinion is drowned out by the much louder voices of Hollywood moguls and designers, who claim to be experts on beauty.

 

[Liar]

Also, are runway skinny models really that 'wanted' by men as we may see in tabloids? And is it truly an ideal standard that women really want to attain?

Not really no. I think it's just a body type on which clothes have an easier time looking good, so designers and the fashion industy likes them.

Women that are portrayed as ideally atteactive in other contexts - actresses, pop stars, adult models et al, are generally not as tall and gangly.

 

[CharleyH]

Wasn't twiggy one of the first ulta thin models? She came on the scene in the 1960's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twiggy

Well, I was thinking she was the first, but was not quite sure. So what happened to the thought of bigger women as sexy? Why suddenly were they not gorgeous? I recall Hugh Heffner being quoted as saying something like "No fat woman will ever be in the Playboy mansion." I recall it and thought it, well, kind of weird, really. Why are big women not considered good looking these days? Fear?

 

[CharleyH]

Not really no. I think it's just a body type on which clothes have an easier time looking good, so designers and the fashion industy likes them.

Women that are portrayed as ideally atteactive in other contexts - actresses, pop stars, adult models et al, are generally not as tall and gangly.

And your ideal is?

 

[R. Richard]

Actually spining off of Pure's thread a bit, but WHEN DID Western culture determine beautiful women were supposed to be skinny?

I can't really find any history of skinny women being considered gorgeous, except in the last - maybe - 75 years? Any thoughts?

What do you think as an, or about ... bigger women?

I don't like the fashion model look where you wonder what was the cause of the famine.

I like women with toned athletic looking bodies. OK, I also like big tits.

 

[Anniejustagirl]

I know - I was reaching a bit. They were a bit buxom still. I guess my more pointed question is 'WHO' made waifs popular? Twiggy was the first I heard of as a kid, but I am not sure if she was the first waif?

Also, are runway skinny models really that 'wanted' by men as we may see in tabloids? And is it truly an ideal standard that women really want to attain?

(edit to add: As for tits? LOL

I think the waif look came from the fashion designers wanting their clothes to drape oh so nicely. Heard something today that one country is insisting that runway models have at Least 18% body fat or they are banned. Another country followed suit and people are wondering if the States will follow the trend. Damn... wish i could remember which countries. My brain says it's Monday. *sigh*

i sure as hell don't want to attain it... i mean i got my health back, but i love a little something to hold onto in women and most of my friends feel the same way... Thank goodness!

and please, don't get me started on tits!

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I don't like the fashion model look where you wonder what was the cause of the famine.

My husband always looks shocked when those type of women pass us by in public and he usually leans over and whispers to me, "I hope she's going to get a sandwich."

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I think the waif look came from the fashion designers wanting their clothes to drape oh so nicely. Heard something today that one country is insisting that runway models have at Least 18% body fat or they are banned. Another country followed suit and people are wondering if the States will follow the trend. Damn... wish i could remember which countries. My brain says it's Monday. *sigh*

i sure as hell don't want to attain it... i mean i got my health back, but i love a little something to hold onto in women and most of my friends feel the same way... Thank goodness!

and please, don't get me started on tits!

18%!!!

Good God.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

18%!!!

Good God.

good god that's too much, or good god that's too little?

 

[Grushenka]

Twiggy is the best known waif example, but at the time (those awful 60's) the big designers (French couturiers and English 'mods' like Mary Quant) were also pushing the waif look; not so skinny as the Twig, but with those big round waif eyes emphasized with eye makeup and tres expensive 'baby doll' dresses. The models in fashion mags at the time even posed the way little girls stand, slouched with toes pointed inwards. Though not as thin, Jean Shrimpton was as famous as Twiggy and also had that doe-eyed baby-girl look, she was called The Shrimp.

If you look at the silent movies of the 20s, most of the female stars are buxom or plump, even the Gish sisters would not be considered thin. In real life at the time you also had the 'flappers', women in shapeless, flat-chested dresses with boy-cuts (the bobbed hair).

I don't know, it seems to me there has always been a diversity of attractive female body types, but what we get via the media is focused on what will sell. As for the waif type, I don't think the designers and advertisers intend for women to become sexless, or are appealing to pedophiles, they simply come closest to human clothes-hangers.

 

[English Lady]

Well, I was thinking she was the first, but was not quite sure. So what happened to the thought of bigger women as sexy? Why suddenly were they not gorgeous? I recall Hugh Heffner being quoted as saying something like "No fat woman will ever be in the Playboy mansion." I recall it and thought it, well, kind of weird, really. Why are big women not considered good looking these days? Fear?

I think with Twiggy she was just so different-that's what sold her. As to why her look became all the rage -I really don't know. Aelena andLiar suggested in the Pure thread that it could have been adopted because of a status thing -it costs money to get so thin and stay so thin.

Maybe it's as I think Joe suggested, that it's attraction to something that isn't he norm -is something, well, freaky really.

 

[CharleyH]

I don't like the fashion model look where you wonder what was the cause of the famine.

I like women with toned athletic looking bodies. OK, I also like big tits.

Well all people like great tits (not on men, mind you - lol - (straight face) ) I wonder where, or at what time, we went as a 'culture' from feast to famine in body type?

 

[glynndah]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...ews.html?in_article_id=418780&in_page_id=1773
Here is an interesting article on what this thread is about.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I think with Twiggy she was just so different-that's what sold her. As to why her look became all the rage -I really don't know. Aelena andLiar suggested in the Pure thread that it could have been adopted because of a status thing -it costs money to get so thin and stay so thin.

Maybe it's as I think Joe suggested, that it's attraction to something that isn't he norm -is something, well, freaky really.

Twiggy was NOT, REPEAT, NOT!! attractive to men. Men were almost repelled by her. I don't know why women would want to be skinny and sexless, unless it's just to follow the stupid dictates of fashion.

Out of curiosity, I wonder how many of the best known designers are gay and how many are straight. I doubt if a gay man would think of a voluptuous woman as being attractive but this might not be the case with a woman like Twiggy.

 

[CharleyH]

Maybe it's as I think Joe suggested, that it's attraction to something that isn't he norm -is something, well, freaky really.

If that is so? Why do we not revel in the big woman - openly?

I personally think the big body is wonderful. I do not often (ok rarely if) sleep with big people, but I find their bodies kind of cozy and comforting (have a lot of big friends). Why is BIG so BAD to so many people?