When a Man makes love to a Woman...

[amicus]

An earlier post on this subject was somewhat trivialized, perhaps it deserved it, perhaps not; but it did engender a thought or so.

I should like to address the subject, with a few caveats and stipulations offered.

First off, it is to be a 'traditional', conventional view of attraction and arousal. A certain degree of, 'innocence', not necessarily virginity, just minimal experience from both. Not a 'practiced', calloused or cavalier attitude or worldly or promiscuous individuals.

It is also placed before the craze for, 'gender equality', and 'equal rights' began, an era where sexual roles were fairly well defined and accepted.

There has always been a small percentage of, 'Bohemians', 'Hedonists', in all societies; wherein societal rules are flaunted, casual sex, recreational sex, promiscuity and aberrant behavior becomes the norm. That is not the minority I would choose to address.

I must also assert, that behind and within each character, a more or less defined sense of moral right and wrong exists and a code of conduct or ethical behavior, that each and both basically understand and agree upon.

I prefer to write my female characters as rather young and, 'unused', in terms of not having been kissed by a hundred guys and cautious from being groped and mauled countless times.

That's a bit much I guess and no doubt somewhat idealistic, but hell, quit reading if you are just smirking.

With all that said, there are still psychological levels to consider, of all kinds, from both characters. How did each acquire their preferences for physical appearance in terms of those to whom they may be attracted? Does, or did, a dominating or cruel, father/mother/sibling/relative, play any part in their formative years and if so, are they aware?

Simple things such as height, weight, eye color, hair color, dress style; all figure, in varying degrees to the comfort level of each.

So too can such things as body odor, breath, cologne, perfume, gestures, tone and quality of voice, a thousand variables that each character may or may not have that meets the ideal matrix of expectations of the other.

Of course, you, the author, determine the circumstances of their eventual meeting, and of course, the variations are limitless.

First eye contact can resolve many issues and even ease the transition to a closer relationship. Even the kind and quality of a smile, a gesture, a facial movement can send a signal that may or may not be understood or returned.

When the initial meeting is arranged, you need to imbue your character with wants, desires and needs, ranging from a mere new acquaintance, to a search for a new friend, a confidant, someone to trust, a bf/gf relationship that may lead to something more intense...


I think I shall pause here, maybe stop, although that renders the title misleading. Suffice it to say that this character background is intended to imply respect for each character, an acceptance of certain rule of propriety in each and a process of slow (or fast) discovery as to the motives and desires of each.

I also mean to imply that making love is far more than the mechanical process, for either, and involves much more than friction and lubrication.

Amicus...

 

[amicus]

Ah, I see....19 views, no responses...another stillborn thread of mine...

Such a deal...

Amicus...

 

[slyc_willie]

Don't be so self-deprecating, Ami.

Even you have to admit that your verbosity tends to put quite a few people off. Not to mention your reputation . . . .

However;

I like the premise in general. From what I understand of your post, you seek to recapture a little of the glory years in which you came of age. Nothing wrong in that, of course. The basic premise you propose has a classic, nostalgic feel to it. Casting aside all that has happened since the 'sexual revolution,' seems to me you want to capture that basic excitement of discovery.

What is it like to make love? Do any of us really remember the sensations we experienced the first time? I don't think that I can look back and recall exactly what I was feeling, either emotionally or physically, the first time I consummated a relationship with a real physical joining. The only thing that comes to mind is, "wow! I'm doing it!"

So we speculate. Draw upon shared experiences and a gneral accepted understanding of what is felt. In writing erotica, we tend to either focus on the mechanical motions, or gloss them over with an abundance of emotional metaphors. But what is it really like?

Proposing a chain story, Ami?

If so, I'm on board. I like a good challenge.

 

[Lalah]

I don't see where you're going with this. You seem to simply be stating something, it's not really a discussion. What kind of responses if any do you want? Is this a discussion? A story idea? Advice? Or just your opinion of sexuality and gender roles?

That said, I prefer it when both characters are still relatively new at sex. Like you said, jaded characters are sometimes not as fun to describe doing it.

 

[amicus]

Yes, I am certainly verbose and definitely have a reputation, smiles, a well earned one, I might add.

Chain story? Not a clue as to what that means, I never ever even collaborate with anyone, smiles.

Perhaps it is proper, logical, reasonable...for you to assume that my intonations are just a reluctance to let go of the past and how it was back then.

And no doubt that factors into all that I write, however....and here comes the controversial portion of my existence...

I 'think', there are certain absolute human values that do not change with time or trends in societal evolution.

I think 'love' between a man and a woman, a girl and a boy, does not change over time.

I think the discoveries of sexual attraction between two human beings is individual and unique and never to be experienced again, ever by anyone at anytime throughout all eternity.

I think it was true an eon ago when humanity numbered only in the thousands, I think it is true today when we are billions.

Your statement, "The only thing that comes to mind is, "wow! I'm doing it!"

There is a story in just that.

Thank you for the read and a thoughtful comment.

Amicus...

 

[slyc_willie]

Yes, I am certainly verbose and definitely have a reputation, smiles, a well earned one, I might add.

Chain story? Not a clue as to what that means, I never ever even collaborate with anyone, smiles.

Perhaps it is proper, logical, reasonable...for you to assume that my intonations are just a reluctance to let go of the past and how it was back then.

And no doubt that factors into all that I write, however....and here comes the controversial portion of my existence...

I 'think', there are certain absolute human values that do not change with time or trends in societal evolution.

I think 'love' between a man and a woman, a girl and a boy, does not change over time.

I think the discoveries of sexual attraction between two human beings is individual and unique and never to be experienced again, ever by anyone at anytime throughout all eternity.

I think it was true an eon ago when humanity numbered only in the thousands, I think it is true today when we are billions.

Your statement, "The only thing that comes to mind is, "wow! I'm doing it!"

There is a story in just that.

Thank you for the read and a thoughtful comment.

Amicus...

As has happened before, I empathise with much of what you said.

The basic joys, fears, excitement and nervousness of exploring physical and emotional love for the first time are universal. But it is hard to capture that with even a hundred lines of prose. There's no easy formula.

If it helps, I do remember, rather vividly, the first time I saw a girl naked. She was my first girlfriend. I won't disclose age

We were both scared, shaking, even, yet the shaking was due more to excitement and anticipation than anything else. She wanted to show me, and I wanted to see. I think that parts of our brains shut down at that moment, not thinking about morals, or ethics, or propriety. I was just a boy, and she was just a girl.

That initial revelation of her body was . . . stupefying. A teenage boy's imagination is a powerful thing, especially after it has been exposed to colorful images plastered in mens' magazines. Automatically, my mind began comparing what I was seeing in person with what I had seen upon a glossy page. But that was just my initial reaction.

At first, I was looking at . . . tits. Bush.

But then it dawned on me. I was looking upon one particular girl, a girl I know, a girl who likes me and wants to show me all this . . . That's when the emotional attachment kicked in. I wanted to touch, I wanted to experience. But this wasn't a picture. This was living and breathing, and as scared as I was of going too far. I wasn't conscious of that last thought, but I know it was there.

I had a conversation with someone close to me about something peripherally along these lands. Mainly, the thought of new discovery between two people. We used the words 'frightening,' 'dangerous,' and 'scary' often.

But it's none of that. It's intimidation. And the most delicious and challenging of intimidations one could ever imagine.

 

[amicus]

I don't see where you're going with this. You seem to simply be stating something, it's not really a discussion. What kind of responses if any do you want? Is this a discussion? A story idea? Advice? Or just your opinion of sexuality and gender roles?

That said, I prefer it when both characters are still relatively new at sex. Like you said, jaded characters are sometimes not as fun to describe doing it.

~~~

Hi, Lalah...thanks...

I apologize for the somewhat abstract nature of my post. When I thought of it, it seemed so much simpler, but in the writing, became complex....

I thought to provide a groundwork for further discussion if anyone desired and I do not always seem to choose the proper means by which to instigate discussion.

At the heart of my query, I suppose, is a questioning of the past half century of the sexual revolution in which women have taken on a more participatory role in human sexuality.

In my lifetime and that of many here on the forum, there was a time when there were no contraceptives, save what we called, 'rubbers' and abstinence.

Abortions were illegal, homosexuals were despised, childbirth outside marriage was not accepted, it was widely understood that women did not enjoy or want sex, only tolerated it.

That chastity and virginity were values to live by and instill in our children.

That love was eternal and marriage was forever.

I am now an old man, a father and a grand father, many times over and none of my children or grandchildren, have the values I had as a young person.

Yet I think, as I said in another post on this thread, that some human values and virtues do not change with time.

This is an author's forum, we who write, exchange ideas and concepts. Mine, are alien to most, I accept that, but then, they are still mine and I defend them and when permitted, even attempt to explain them.

Thank you for the comment.

Amicus...

 

[amicus]

As has happened before, I empathise with much of what you said.

The basic joys, fears, excitement and nervousness of exploring physical and emotional love for the first time are universal. But it is hard to capture that with even a hundred lines of prose. There's no easy formula.

If it helps, I do remember, rather vividly, the first time I saw a girl naked. She was my first girlfriend. I won't disclose age

We were both scared, shaking, even, yet the shaking was due more to excitement and anticipation than anything else. She wanted to show me, and I wanted to see. I think that parts of our brains shut down at that moment, not thinking about morals, or ethics, or propriety. I was just a boy, and she was just a girl.

That initial revelation of her body was . . . stupefying. A teenage boy's imagination is a powerful thing, especially after it has been exposed to colorful images plastered in mens' magazines. Automatically, my mind began comparing what I was seeing in person with what I had seen upon a glossy page. But that was just my initial reaction.

At first, I was looking at . . . tits. Bush.

But then it dawned on me. I was looking upon one particular girl, a girl I know, a girl who likes me and wants to show me all this . . . That's when the emotional attachment kicked in. I wanted to touch, I wanted to experience. But this wasn't a picture. This was living and breathing, and as scared as I was of going too far. I wasn't conscious of that last thought, but I know it was there.

I had a conversation with someone close to me about something peripherally along these lands. Mainly, the thought of new discovery between two people. We used the words 'frightening,' 'dangerous,' and 'scary' often.

But it's none of that. It's intimidation. And the most delicious and challenging of intimidations one could ever imagine.

~~~

That is worthy of repeating, slyc, because it is exactly and precisely where I hoped the discussion might go.

And there is so much more, for there had to have been 'closeness' before the disrobing, looks, smiles, knowing smiles, touching, kissing, fondling, exploring, arousal, such a strange and frightening thing in itself, for both....

In my writer's mind, there is an almost divine mystery here, for not only that very first experience, but the second and the third, each modified, of course by the preceding, but in what way?

I don't know about you, slyc, but it happened for me a hell of a long time before I was ever of legal age, and it pains me not to be able to express or attempt to express those awakenings.

such a deal....

thanks again...

amicus...

 

[slyc_willie]

~~~

That is worthy of repeating, slyc, because it is exactly and precisely where I hoped the discussion might go.

And there is so much more, for there had to have been 'closeness' before the disrobing, looks, smiles, knowing smiles, touching, kissing, fondling, exploring, arousal, such a strange and frightening thing in itself, for both....

In my writer's mind, there is an almost divine mystery here, for not only that very first experience, but the second and the third, each modified, of course by the preceding, but in what way?

I don't know about you, slyc, but it happened for me a hell of a long time before I was ever of legal age, and it pains me not to be able to express or attempt to express those awakenings.

such a deal....

thanks again...

amicus...

There was, indeed, a long 'courtship,' as we may both think of it, before the situation I described above occured. A lot of clumsy flirting. A lot shared innuendo that I didn't always recognize. Some sloppy kisses

It's true that quite a few of those who belong to the generations that have followed yours don't see things the way you do. There is more openness now, and it is sadly presented in the basest of ways. Sexuality is expounded upon children as young as ten and eleven years old. I'm sure we've all heard the news reports about condoms being passed out in some middle schools . . . .

I see both good an bad in the way sexuality is exposed to the younger generations. For one, it helps to protect them. For another, it seems to encourage them to explore, under the magical blanket of "as long as we use protection, we're okay." But little attention is paid to the emotional attachment of explorative sex, and even less to the eventual repercussions.

I often wish, as well, that we lived in a time of sexual innocence. But people grow and change, not always for the better, and society grows and changes with them. It's a constant wheel that spins, and it may be that the sense of innocence will return.

I doubt either of us will be around to see it, though.

 

[Lalah]

I have to say that while I agree human values and morality don't change with time, so to have our darker needs always been there. Homosexuality, women craving sex, etc. It was all there too, simply it was hidden better for fear of repercussions. I certainly don't see it as a new development.

That said, I too wish marriage still meant something to most people. These days it seem to me people split up at the first sign of problems instead of trying to work things out. I don't know if people should stay together forever no matter what, but I do wish they tried harder at it.

 

[amicus]

I have to say that while I agree human values and morality don't change with time, so to have our darker needs always been there. Homosexuality, women craving sex, etc. It was all there too, simply it was hidden better for fear of repercussions. I certainly don't see it as a new development.

That said, I too wish marriage still meant something to most people. These days it seem to me people split up at the first sign of problems instead of trying to work things out. I don't know if people should stay together forever no matter what, but I do wish they tried harder at it.

~~~

Thank you again...'darker needs', a curious phrase, you might expand on that, although I do understand. And, yes, it has always been there, all of it, not a new development of course, but the acceptance...where does it fit?

Marriage also...yes, promises, vows, contractual agreements, should mean more, I have no answers to that, wish I did.

Amicus...

 

[impressive]

Ami,

I think you would be much more contented living in the 1890s.

~ Imp

 

[LoquaciousLady]

It's genteel musings like these that used to make me wonder if I was doing something "wrong." All the implied tenderness and heady emotion. The innocence and virtue. You make it sound like Christmas morning.

I don't remember ever being that innocent or virtuous or tender and yet a touch of nostalgia tugs at my heart and makes me wish that I had been. If love is still very much a mystery to me, sex never has been and it seems a shame. At least the romance is alive and well for others, though. Maybe if I read enough of your thoughts I'll manage to re-capture something I never quite had.

 

[Liar]

Ah, I see....19 views, no responses...another stillborn thread of mine...

Such a deal...

Amicus...

You got to learn to write more succinct questions, buddy. I read that post three times, and I still wasn't sure what I was expected to respond to.

I'm the MTV generation. I need my four second soundbits.

 

[starlightqueen]

"When women simply tolerated sex"??? Isn't that a little bit selfish? What does your wife think about that?

 

[CharleyH]

An earlier post on this subject was somewhat trivialized, perhaps it deserved it, perhaps not; but it did engender a thought or so.

I should like to address the subject, with a few caveats and stipulations offered.

First off, it is to be a 'traditional', conventional view of attraction and arousal. A certain degree of, 'innocence', not necessarily virginity, just minimal experience from both. Not a 'practiced', calloused or cavalier attitude or worldly or promiscuous individuals.

It is also placed before the craze for, 'gender equality', and 'equal rights' began, an era where sexual roles were fairly well defined and accepted.

So I am guessing we are talking about the Neanderthal years because female dominance and feminism both have a long arm, or maybe we are talking the 1950's in America?

There has always been a small percentage of, 'Bohemians', 'Hedonists', in all societies; wherein societal rules are flaunted, casual sex, recreational sex, promiscuity and aberrant behavior becomes the norm. That is not the minority I would choose to address.

Okay. Listening.

I must also assert, that behind and within each character, a more or less defined sense of moral right and wrong exists and a code of conduct or ethical behavior, that each and both basically understand and agree upon.

I prefer to write my female characters as rather young and, 'unused', in terms of not having been kissed by a hundred guys and cautious from being groped and mauled countless times.

That's a bit much I guess and no doubt somewhat idealistic, but hell, quit reading if you are just smirking.

Still reading.

With all that said, there are still psychological levels to consider, of all kinds, from both characters. How did each acquire their preferences for physical appearance in terms of those to whom they may be attracted? Does, or did, a dominating or cruel, father/mother/sibling/relative, play any part in their formative years and if so, are they aware?

Not certain where you are going. I might make a guess that a story set in a time when, or place where there were arranged marriages might suit you.

Of course, you, the author, determine the circumstances of their eventual meeting, and of course, the variations are limitless.

Now you are Romeo and Julieting.

I think I shall pause here, maybe stop, although that renders the title misleading. Suffice it to say that this character background is intended to imply respect for each character, an acceptance of certain rule of propriety in each and a process of slow (or fast) discovery as to the motives and desires of each.

I don't get this from your synopsis, Ami. I don't know enough of the story, but you might be wise to research where such a union would be possible and under what circumstances. Such a chick might be even possible to find today ... in the American bible belt.

I also mean to imply that making love is far more than the mechanical process, for either, and involves much more than friction and lubrication.

I barely questioned it.

Amicus...[/QUOTE]

 

[amicus]

Hi, Charley, glad I stirred your cage, at least you appeared to have read my piece, not for a moment did I expect you to either comprehend or agree with anything I said. What else is new?

Like religious zealots, moral relativists reject human nature whenever reality interferes with their beliefs. Again, what else is new?

There is nothing 'Neaderthal', nor pre history in anything I implied. just your blind avoidance of the reality and basic nature of the beast.

I do not question that there are boys who want to be girls and girls who want to be boys and those who cannot decide. I am not God, I did not create the human critter with all his faults and frailties, I happen to be one of us too, like it or not.

Society everywhere does not tolerate those who take human life without cause, most societies even control the activities of those who commit fraudulent acts or force to acquire the things they desire.

I for one am pleased that there are those who occupy the fringes of acceptable behavior that falls outside the realm of protecting basic human rights.

Few question the reality of the necessities of existence, breathing, food, shelter et cetera, those hard and fast 'real' and 'absolute' attributes of the nature of the beast.

When it comes to the psychological and sociological aspects of the nature of the beast, there does appear to be a wide range of thought and opinion.

I welcome you to yours and the expression of them, why can you not return the courtesy without calling me names?

Cheers, kid...

Amicus...

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I think you missed it, Ami.

SEX IN AMERICA: Stuff it in the hole. Stir twice. Get off.

"Oh, you weren't done, baby? Maybe next ime."

 

[amicus]

I think you missed it, Ami.

SEX IN AMERICA: Stuff it in the hole. Stir twice. Get off.

"Oh, you weren't done, baby? Maybe next ime."

~~~

Hey, girl, we are neighbors. Wanna spend this weekend over at the coast and see if we can't remedy your perceptions just a tad?

(May take all weekend, we can order in...smiles...)

The always amorous Amicus...

 

[CharleyH]

Hi, Charley, glad I stirred your cage, at least you appeared to have read my piece, not for a moment did I expect you to either comprehend or agree with anything I said. What else is new?

Like religious zealots, moral relativists reject human nature whenever reality interferes with their beliefs. Again, what else is new?

There is nothing 'Neaderthal', nor pre history in anything I implied. just your blind avoidance of the reality and basic nature of the beast.

I do not question that there are boys who want to be girls and girls who want to be boys and those who cannot decide. I am not God, I did not create the human critter with all his faults and frailties, I happen to be one of us too, like it or not.

Society everywhere does not tolerate those who take human life without cause, most societies even control the activities of those who commit fraudulent acts or force to acquire the things they desire.

I for one am pleased that there are those who occupy the fringes of acceptable behavior that falls outside the realm of protecting basic human rights.

Few question the reality of the necessities of existence, breathing, food, shelter et cetera, those hard and fast 'real' and 'absolute' attributes of the nature of the beast.

When it comes to the psychological and sociological aspects of the nature of the beast, there does appear to be a wide range of thought and opinion.

I welcome you to yours and the expression of them, why can you not return the courtesy without calling me names?

Cheers, kid...

Amicus...

I was much more respectful than usual to you, and I must admit I am a bit confused by your initial post and now this one. You are confused a bit, Ami, and as Jenny states.

To answer directly ... you have not stirred me one way or another. I think you have an old school opinion sometimes, but it does not bother me. I did attempt to understand when others did not, but frankly? Who the fuck knows or knew your purpose? You are off on a tangent and I respect that. Kisses baby.

 

[Brute_Force]

How banal.

 

[CharleyH]

How banal.

Just like you, I guess.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ami, I do understand what you are saying in your first post, and that sensation of exploration and newness is wonderful to look back on. It is.

I have just had the joy of watching my daughter find her mate, in a way that would gladden your old grampa heart. Both of them were virgins, at ages 19 and 20.

Explorative and joyful, absolutely. But innocence had nothing to do with it.

I raised my children to be aware of the rainbow of human ability, preference etc. Folk of all stripes sat in my livingroom-- lesbians,gays, transsexuals, heteroes, pairs and relationships of all kinds. When my daughter's friends were struggling with sexual matters, she'd tell them; "Talk to my mom," and I would get the questions their parents wouldn't answer-- sometimes having to do with life-or-death matters. "Innocent" would have meant that very same teenage pregnancy you condemn.

My daughter could have begun her sexual exploration three years ago, and I would have been sympathetic and supportive. I was sympathetic and supportive to her desire to find the right person. As it happens, her mate turned out to be male-- she tells me she was a little bit surprised by that!

Needless to say, Ami, you have written a couple of sentences in this thread that raise my hackles. But I always remember what you've told us, that you pretend to be a liberal on conservative boards. So, when I see gems like this one;

Like religious zealots, moral relativists reject human nature whenever reality interferes with their beliefs.

which is a perfect description of your own good self, I just roll my eyes.

 

[Brute_Force]

I was referring to the subject in general and the whole thread, but if you wanna throw dirt at me, you are as banal as the threadstarter.

 

[amicus]

all you want Stella, I do not see it as a fault to comprehend both extremes nor to exercise the option of advocating either, should the circumstance require.

Thank you for the personal anecdote, that was quite pleasant.

However....

We naturally protect our offspring from dangerous physical threats until we have educated them to a point they can look out for themselves.

I understand your opinion that young people should have knowledge of all aspects of human behavior. I do, however, acknowledge that with a caveat or ten.

I would not permit a child to become openly exposed to such things as 'cult' worship, that might involve harmful psychological trauma. In other words, as a parent, I am guardian on not only the physical well being, but the mental well being of my offspring until they are of sufficient understanding to deal with the many diversities of human behavior.

It is a parents obligation, I put forth, to mold the intellectual growth of an offspring until such time as the adolescent mind can deal with the issues.

That entails an early and consistent demonstration and explanation of the particular moral and ethical standards by which one lives ones life.

Children of religious parents or those of homosexual parents, have control over the life of the child.

Since I view both religion and homosexuality as aberrations of human nature and I did not permit undue influence from either and many more aspects that I did not embrace.

You may do as you wish, as always. Simply grant me the equal right.

Amicus...