What to do?

[kiten69]

Well since I've talked with many people outside of my R/L friends, professionals I mean, psychiatrist...school counselors...the teacher. I've not found anything that is helping this situation as of yet, so I figured I'd give it a shot here and see if anyone has had similar experiences.

My oldest son is in 3rd grade and has been struggling all year with his grades. He is a very bright child, has received straight As since Kindergarten, but now seems to lack the motivation to do his work. Just last week I got a note saying that his last 2 subjects now have low grades, and he's not turning in ANY work in one of the other subjects. :frustrated smilie:

He does his homework here, so that is not the issue, it is schooltime. We drill the stuff he needs to know for tests, I help him study until I am comfortable that he knows what is necessary to get an A on those tests. However, to my disappointment and confussion when he takes the tests it is like his mind goes blank or something because he pulls Cs and Ds ?!

Now I've noticed that his self esteem is falling, he is constantly saying how stupid he is, and that he is a failure. It is breaking my heart to watch him struggle and not be able to do a damn thing to help.

Any advice would be greatly appriciated.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

No advice, just my heartfelt support.

Although, you might ask him about any changes that have occured that might have him upset or distracted. Just a suggestion.

Good luck.

 

[oggbashan]

1. Is he being bullied at school?

2. Has he got friends who think that educational success stinks and/or that it isn't cool to work or to be seen to make an effort?

3. Has he been accused of being a swot, a nerd, etc?

Og

 

[maggot420]

Usually they think they're stupid, or a failure because someone is telling them that they are.

You have my sincerest sympathy. I hope you are able to discover what's going on.

 

[R. Richard]

What you describe seems to be a simple case of fear. Your child is afraid of something. Finding out what the child is afraid of is usually pretty simple.

If the child is turning in work that is failing, insist that the child bring home the work that is failing and find out why the work is failing. If it is "Because I just know that the child can do better work!" then you simply point out to the teacher that it is the teacher's job to extract the work of which the child is capable. Then file a written complaint with the School Board. One of those is usually sufficient to cure the problem, as the teacher will suddenly decide that flunking the child and losing a job is not a good idea.

If the child is truning in work that passes. but the child fails the tests, insist that the child bring home the tests. If the teacher will not let the child bring home the test, then file a written complaint with the School Board. One of those is usually sufficient to cure the problem, as the teacher will suddenly decide that flunking the child and losing a job is not a good idea.

If the child is being bullied at school then file a written complaint with the School Board. One of those is usually sufficient to cure the problem, as the administration will suddenly decide that allowing the child to be bullied and losing jobs is not a good idea.

If the child is being harrangued in front of the class, tell the child to get up and quietly leave the class and go to the Principal's office and complain. About the second time this happens, the Principal will call the teacher in and ask, "Miss Peach, how long have you been with us?" The new teacher will not harrangue your child.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

3rd grade is usually when kids start feeling like school is more "work" than "fun"... the transition is HARD for a lot of kids... a lot of the fun stuff they did before (projects, crafts etc) have been replaced by a lot of desk work... it sucks for kids They're started, in 3rd, to make the transition toward 4th and 5th and ultimately, middle school, where they segregate each subject completely into separate classes.

Kids who excel at desk work do fantastically well in this transition. Kids who don't, who are more kinesthetic learners (hand-on-experiential), usually start falling behind. It's not their fault--it's the fault of the system that doesn't cater, anymore, to their learning style. But when they start falling behind, they see the rest of their classmates doing fine, and start feeling 'stupid.'

Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of recourse for a parent with a kinesthetic learner in public schools. What you have to teach them is basically how to "do school." i.e. do what you need to in order to get through with the grades you (the parent and teacher and school) want to see. It takes time for them to "get it." Most do, eventually, to a great extent. In the meantime, you have to rebuff the "I'm stupid" comments... explain to him that the teacher is teaching 25 other kids, and her teaching style is geared toward only part of them. It's not his fault. It's just like learning any new skill--tying your shoe, riding a bike--once he learns how to "do school," he'll do it like riding a bike.

Unfortunately, it will become that automatic, too.

Incidentally, a majority of boys and men are kinesthetic learners. They learn much better hands on (taking apart a car engine or a clock or doing experiments) than sitting at a desk and reading something or having someone lecture about it.

 

[3113]

It's just the tests RIGHT? No bullying or problems with friends?

Okay. This is advice from a one-time teacher here. I know all about students panicking on tests--and I know that there are students who do brilliantly in untimed conditions and terrible when put on the clock. So here's some things to consider and ways to help him:

Understand that if the tests do not look exactly like the homework, that a kid can go blank on them. He can also just have test-taking anxiety--freeze up.

1) In the first instance, you need to get a look at the test and compare it to the homework. For example, a math test may test a kid's comprehension of HOW to do the problems by giving him a problem that looks very different from the ones he did on the homework. This can cause great panic. These problems DO NOT look like the ones he worked on at home! And so he may be unable to think them through. If that's the case, then you need to talk to the teacher. Find out why changing how the problem is asked or presented confuses him.

2) In the second instance, you can have him tested for a battery of learning diabilities--it's not a bad idea anyway--dsylexia, etc. If he's found to have any of these problems, then, by law he can be given more time on tests.

3) If it's just panic in a timed situation, then start doing the homework that way at home. Put down a timer and tell him he has a certain amount of time to do the homework. Make him understand that however much he gets done in that time is just fine--this is training, not the "race." Praise him for the number of answers he completes in whatever time it took him, and praise him more each time he answers more in less time: "You finished ten questions in twenty minutes last time and twelve in eighteen this time! You're getting so fast!"

Other things you can do is tell him to not rush in. If he's got an hour, tell him to take five minute just reading through the questions. Tell him to skip answers he doesn't immediately know, checking off all those he does know the first time through. Glance at the the clock. Forty minutes left? Okay, now go back over questions that he *might* know the answer to. Glance at the clock. Only fifteen minutes left? Time to try and answer some of those he couldn't think of the answer to before--if the answer still isn't there, nothing lost, but maybe as he was doing those other questions, others answers came to him.

Instead of just grilling him question/answer style for his tests, GIVE him similar written tests at home under these conditions--comfortable conditions so that he learns not to panic in the schoolroom under the same conditions.

 

[kiten69]

My apologies everyone I forgot to mention one important thing, I am in the middle of a divorce...my mind has been so scattered lately. I know this affects him but everything I have tried hasn't done a thing to get him back on task. He's not off all the time...just some days are worse than others...but he never seems to make up for the bad days...he just has no interest in school anymore. Well unless it is a cool project...or something that he gets to create.

Good luck.

Thank you.

1. Is he being bullied at school?

2. Has he got friends who think that educational success stinks and/or that it isn't cool to work or to be seen to make an effort?

3. Has he been accused of being a swot, a nerd, etc?

In response to #1...he was being bullied for a while and it took us a few months to put a stop to the bulling...he still sees the school counselor for those issues and the teacher is GREAT about keeping a closer watch on the bulling children.

#2...not as far as I know.

#3...that went along with the bulling issue...but to my knowledge not since then.

Usually they think they're stupid, or a failure because someone is telling them that they are.

No one that I know of...and he hasn't mentioned anyone saying it at school.

"Miss Peach, how long have you been with us?" The new teacher will not harrangue your child.

One thing I know for sure is it is not the teacher...she has been a great support in helping me figure out how to work him through this mess.

Kids who don't, who are more kinesthetic learners (hand-on-experiential), usually start falling behind.

That is my son to a tee...if you have any tricks that work for those kinds of learners please don't hesitate to share them.

Okay. This is advice from a one-time teacher here.

Very helpful information 3113...thank you.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

That is my son to a tee...if you have any tricks that work for those kinds of learners please don't hesitate to share them.

This might help

It gives great study tips, although for older kids, but it can be modified... like using color... flashcards, for example... and most of all, whatever it is, make it a GAME. Something he can DO. It sounds like a lot of work, but he will REMEMBER it more than the rote stuff you're trying now. If it's spelling, write it BIG and have him trace the word with his finger. If it's math, have him use those block-things (damn, I'm blanking on the name of them) to count it out... social studies is a little harder, as is English...

what subject is he having the most trouble in?

 

[glynndah]

Ask his teacher for an example of what sorts of tests he'll be taking. Make up that kind of test, T/F, FITB, etc. so he can use it as a study guide and practice with it.

 

[Tom Collins]

[threadjack]

I'd just like to say right here and now that this is to most awesomest community of horndogs on the planet. You can litterally ask for help/advice with anything and get tons of intellegent responces as well as people who have no advice, but want to lend you a little moral support/commiseration.

You people RAWK! [/threadjack]

I'm one of those who doesn't really have anything helpful to say, but I most certainly do hope that you find something that will work for your son. It's really hard to not feel stupid when it seems like everyone around you is skating along and you're struggling. Selfrecrimination is a favored past time of just about everyone I've ever met, and it can become an adiction. That cycle definitely needs to be broken.

 

[Huckleman2000]

My apologies everyone I forgot to mention one important thing, I am in the middle of a divorce...

I'm sure this is not telling you anything you don't already know, but that's probably got something to do with it. It's (dealing with your child) the most awful thing about a divorce, at least in my experience.

The worst thing about splitting up for me was dealing with guilt and worry about messing up my kid's life. I know the divorce was for the best, and all of those things, but it still feels like "I'm messing up my kid's life." If you can, I would try to come to an agreement with the boy's father to put your son's welfare and well-being ahead of all the bullshit that comes with a divorce, and try to work through that as best as you can. If you can afford couple's counseling, try it; not to try to repair things, but to split up without either of you breaking things and people around you. Make sure your son knows that he is still loved - even though there are changes to deal with, that's one thing that doesn't change.

good luck.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Usually they think they're stupid, or a failure because someone is telling them that they are.

You have my sincerest sympathy. I hope you are able to discover what's going on.

That was my brother. Wait, that IS my brother. Fuck you bro!

Well since I've talked with many people outside of my R/L friends, professionals I mean, psychiatrist...school counselors...the teacher. I've not found anything that is helping this situation as of yet, so I figured I'd give it a shot here and see if anyone has had similar experiences.

My oldest son is in 3rd grade and has been struggling all year with his grades. He is a very bright child, has received straight As since Kindergarten, but now seems to lack the motivation to do his work. Just last week I got a note saying that his last 2 subjects now have low grades, and he's not turning in ANY work in one of the other subjects. :frustrated smilie:

He does his homework here, so that is not the issue, it is schooltime. We drill the stuff he needs to know for tests, I help him study until I am comfortable that he knows what is necessary to get an A on those tests. However, to my disappointment and confussion when he takes the tests it is like his mind goes blank or something because he pulls Cs and Ds ?!

Now I've noticed that his self esteem is falling, he is constantly saying how stupid he is, and that he is a failure. It is breaking my heart to watch him struggle and not be able to do a damn thing to help.

Any advice would be greatly appriciated.

That's the opposite of my problems when I was in school. I realized at some point that homework was pointless and stopped doing it. I passed all of my tests though, so it wasn't like I wasn't learning, I just hated busy work.

Like others, I can't help, but I wish my condolences to you and your child.

 

[jomar]

My apologies everyone I forgot to mention one important thing, I am in the middle of a divorce...my mind has been so scattered lately. I know this affects him but everything I have tried hasn't done a thing to get him back on task. He's not off all the time...just some days are worse than others...but he never seems to make up for the bad days...he just has no interest in school anymore. Well unless it is a cool project...or something that he gets to create.

What the others said about learning stuff. Third grade is when smart kids with learning problems and/or ADD are often noticed. The change in work overwhelmes their natural abilities.

But if he was doing fine before the divorce stuff, my money's on related emotional issues. You said you talked to some professionals about the academics. Did any of them address the divorce? Maybe counseling, play therapy, suggestions to you how to navigate the divorce with loving support to your son (so he knows both of you love him, it's not his fault, he doesn't have to choose, etc) will help him feel better and improve his schoolwork as a by product.

Edit to say support and best wishes (should have already said so)

 

[sophia jane]

It's possible that his trouble with school is just part of an overall rough time for him, with the divorce being a big chunk of it. Realistically, when such a hard thing is happening like that, why should they care about school? It seems like making sure he knows he's loved by both you and your ex, finding ways of encouraging him and building up his confidence outside of school, and easing off the pressure about his school performance might help. This year my oldest got off to a pretty rough start at the new school, got his first C's and wasn't trying his hardest, but we realized that he needed time to adjust and find his own way without feeling like a grade on a paper was the only thing important. (I'm not saying it's not important, btw, just that when a rough time is happening, sometimes focusing too much energy on those bad grades makes the child even more stressed which in turn makes his grades and attitude worse). So my advice- try not to stress too much, tell him you love him no matter and that as long as he tries his absolute best grades don't matter. And then do something really fun, just the two of you.

 

[TE999]

I am so sorry, kiten.

((hugs)) to you and the little guy.

Just let him know you love him and that he is going to be OK.

Divorce can have dissimilar impacts psychologically on children and unfortunately this may be a manifestation of the situation.

Counseling and a tutor may be needed to help him through this.

Hope things improve for you soon.

 

[MagicaPractica]

{{{{{hugs}}}}}

It's hard to offer suggestions not being involved with the situation but I've seen a few really good ones from others.

Did he start neglecting his homework and saying he was stupid after he started having trouble on tests? I think the question is, what is the root cause? It sounds like the problems he has had have snowballed. All the things you do with him, are they verbal as opposed to the test which is written? That would suggest a definite divide where having him do practice tests on paper could make a real difference. Sometimes the textbooks have practice tests in the back. Good luck.

 

[jakebarnes06]

Given the information you've posted, I doubt your son's problems have much to do with his school. It's much more likely they are caused by the divorce you and his father are going through.

You should find out whether or not the school has a divorce adjustment group for children your son's age. If so, get him in it. If your school doesn't have one, maybe your church does. If your church doesn't, or if you have no church, maybe some community agency does.

You should look at how you and his father are handling the divorce when your son is in a position to either see or hear you. Most parents know they shouldn't speak ill of the other parent when their child is present. Many however, do not extend this prohibition to speaking with a friend or family member on the phone. If you're doing it when your son is in the house, he knows about it and probably has overheard you. Simply put, don't do it unless your son is out of the house. Ask his father to do the same. Demand that your parents, siblings, friends and others with whom your son spends any time do the same.

Are you two arguing about either custody, parenting time (visitation) or child support? Keep in mind that your son knows about those issues also and they do have an impact on him, especially when anyone asks him with whom he wants to live. The sooner you resolve those issues, the sooner each of you can get back to putting your son first. Investigate using a mediator instead of attorneys to resolve those issues. Having been a family law attorney myself for more than twenty years, I can tell you that mediators are faster than attorneys and frequently wiser as well.

Someone mentioned counseling for you and your son's father. Do it, but not to save the marriage. Instead, do it to learn how you and the father can communicate with each other in a way that will be beneficial for your son.

You mentioned that you have been scattered lately. I believe you. You were apparently so scattered that you didn't mention the divorce in your first post. If you expect your son to be unscattered in school, it's time for you to be unscattered at home. He will emulate you. He most likely needs structure in his life and it's up to you and his father to provide it.

Do either you or the father have someone new in your life? If so, keep that person away from your son. He doesn't need to see either of you with a new, competing father or a new, competing mother.

Analyze both how much time you're spending on the computer and what you're doing with that time during your son's waking hours. If he knows you're typing away furiously and that he is not supposed to see what you're typing, he no doubt can figure out it either has to do with him or with that new person in your life.

Finally, there are three ways you can speak of your son's father when your son is around: good, bad and not at all. There are numerous studies concluding that the latter two will harm your child, while only the first will benefit your child.

I don't mean to rant on you, but I've seen each of these issues many times. I know they frequently exist without one or both parents recognizing them for what they are...reasons for kids' behavior to change.

I wish both you and your son's father the absolute best in recognizing how each of you can revise your own behaviors to benefit your son.

 

[starrkers]

My first thought on this is there is residual problems from the bullying. I have a son of similar age who was bullied last year. The overt bullying may be gone, but there may still be subliminal stuff going on.
If the school isn't big on academic achievement it could still be a problem for him. He may be trying to be one of the boys, and hiding his abilities in class.
Good luck with it.

 

[jomar]

My first thought on this is there is residual problems from the bullying.

Could be a combination of things that are overwhelming him. I'm trying to say two cents of supportive things, but keep coming up with counseling for your son, for you and for you and your soon to be ex (e.g., no arguing in front of him, it's our problem, we love you, no asking him questions about the other or sending messages or badmouthing, etc). I know it's not news, but it helps to have someone to help put some structure to it.

Did I mention best wishes to you?

 

[The_Darkness]

It could just be that he doesn't test for shit. Could be that he's being bullied, or afraid of being bullied. Maybe his friends aren't the smart kids in the class and the smart kids are the ones that get picked on. I've been on that receiving end, took it for a couple of years until I threatened to kill and eat a kid when I was in 8th grade. I didn't mean it, of course, but he thought I did. Bullying stopped, grades went back up.

There's a LOT of things that it COULD be. Could be the class environment, could be distraction by classmates, could be possiblity of future distraction by classmates, could be a learning disorder that is slowly appearing, could be something in that he doesn't even notice that breaks his concentration. Could just be that he doesn't feel comfortable at school, and since the test/class environment is different from the home/study environment, it's throwing him off. It could even be that he can't concentrate while sitting in the seats at school.

Start eliminating variables. Ask a teacher if you can have him take a "take home test" (whether it counts for anything or not is irrelevant, it's a test on changing the environment, not on 3rd grade math). If he scores dramatically higher on a test at home than he does at school, it's probably environment/distraction related. I'd start there and see what happens. I would imagine that the school would cooperate greatly if it means improving a student's grades.

Also, if he's exceptionally bright, does your school have a program for exceptional students? It could simply be that he's bored with the work and he's not being pushed hard enough. I don't know enough of the situation to make that call, but if there's a program for smarter kids (short of advancing them a grade or two, I am NOT a proponent of that) it could help. Of course, if it comes down to him being bullied because he's smart (or future bullying depending on performance) putting him in such a program will NOT make matters better.

My two cents.

 

[Belegon]

Kiten, we're having some of the same problems. My son was an academic superstar until he hit third grade and now he is, in the schools eyes, in trouble. He's always had his issues (who doesn't?) but his grades always rocked...now they are suffering. The "I'm stupid" thing was huge with him last year...this year it's more acted out. (He is in fourth)

I wish I could solve both our problems. On my side, the bullying is an issue and continues to be one. He also has major issues with impulse control. Can see the difference between wrong and right, but when upset he just ACTS.

I'm glad you're not having the homework difficulties we are, but sorry you're seeing the testing troubles...we are only now starting to have problems there.

My son is also very afraid to fail after a long time of being highly praised on his grades. I believe he greatly fears being a disappointment.

I'd be more than happy to discuss more specific things through PM or email. But I don't know if I have any answers. Just questions...although you may have ideas I haven't thought of and vice versa.

 

[slyc_willie]

Junior Psychologist Time . . .

I suppose there comes a time in every kid's life when what they have become accustomed to, what has always been easy for them, is intruded upon by what they feel others think of them. Ability becomes compounded by perceived ability.

I remember when I was in third grade, just a boy of eight years, and I began acting out. I didn't recognize it at the time, of course, but my memories of that age are filled with a desire to suddenly be accepted by those around me. Peers, especially. I wanted to be like everyone else, and not everyone was a smart kid.

I don't know if my grades suffered too much. I don't remember Mom or Dad asking me about them, although I did have a few instances of 'acting out' and having to spend time in the pirncipal's office. I remember thinking how cool that was.

For a lot of kids, being 'cool' means acting out. Misbehaving. Causing mischief. They may purposefully throw a test just so they won't be pointed out by the teacher as having gotten one of the highest grades. Because high grades aren't cool.

I'm just throwing this out as a possibility, as a small part of the problem. Maybe all your child craves is a little reinforcement. Not to say that it is lacking at home, but perhaps your son just does not understand the value of a mother's love at this particular point in his life. There were times in my own young life when whatever my mother told me didn't mean shit compared to the 'cherished' opinions of my friends.

How do you get around this? I haven't the slightest idea. I'm not a parent. But maybe something of what I have said will help.

If not, then disregard.

 

[Fallenfromgrace]

Of course, the first thing i think of when i read about the difficulties you're having with your son was 'perhaps there's an element of bullying?' having read on i see that any problems in that domain are 'dealt' with- as such.

I WAS going to ask how old a 3rd grader is (im in the UK remember!) but then someone said 8 i believe it was?

My second thought is in line with what someone said up there ^^ the transition from play based learning to hard core academics is around that age, and because of this- the need for higher reading skills, mathematical reasoning etc- many learning associated difficulties are realised at this age. It wouldn't harm to have him checked out for Dyslexia, ADD, ADHD (though the latter seems far less likely- as he doesn't come across as Hyperactive from what you say) etc. He may not have any of these, but it still leaves you without an answer. If it is clear that he has some degree of say Dyslexia- not only is he legally allowed more time in tests (if that is the issue) but he will get the support he needs.

I guess i should have prefixed all of that by asking HOW his reading and literacy ability measures up for his age? does he show any difficulties with spelling or even negotiation of written words- pronunciation, semantic meaning, application in context etc? If NOT then dyslexia is even LESS likely.

You should probably self assess his reading/ literacy and get a report (informal or formal) from his main teacher (does he still only have one at his age- not yet streamed?) first, then take steps from there. The school or local governing authority would no doubt have contacts to aide with this.

Like you said your son seems to be kinesthetic learner- and as someone said the way classes are taught from that age onwards is pretty much talked at/listen/ class discussion as opposed to tactile methods with modeling etc. Suggestions have been offered for Maths and something else (i cant remember- its above somewhere- i think Selena mentioned it) and as was also said english is harder. It might be useful to get him to free-think on things and see where he goes. Give him some starting points and see where he goes. A tactile method of learning for english is difficult.

Perhaps he can incorporate what he would normally try to get across verbally in symbols/ pictures- paint/ chalk/ pencils. I know that sounds far fetched- but it get's him DOING something and he then has a piece of art to show for it too. From there he can try and translate it all verbally- so he has his academic work to show too.

Evidently your divorce is having an impact on you, your ex and your son (and other children- he's your oldest right?) so its important to talk to him about how he feels about the split. Without asking him who he wants to live with etc, see if he has some basic time sharing needs he'd like met if possible- eg. i want to go to the park with dad, can we all go to dinner together one night etc. You sound like you love him very much and care for him a great deal- after all he is your son, but the way that might come across- especially as you yourself are all over the place, doesnt neccesarily translate to him the way he is receptible to.

I dont know how much of a forced/ perhaps aggressive emphasis is placed on academic achievment in your household, but he may be feeling pressured. If not form you then from others- your ex, grandparents etc. If you or anyone else is openly comparing him to siblings when he was their age, or cousins of similar ages etc...it could be having an effect. If positively then he may feel the pressure to succeed more, if negatively then he may feel 'stupid' without your or anyone else's intention.

As a whole i am just throwing some thoughts out, i hope you can sort this thing out- ithink the foremost important thing however is to ask him. Just ask him how and why his grades are suffering- he may JUST TELL YOU straight off- if he has an answer that is.

pm if you ever need

 

[S-Des]

Given the information you've posted, I doubt your son's problems have much to do with his school. It's much more likely they are caused by the divorce you and his father are going through.

You should find out whether or not the school has a divorce adjustment group for children your son's age. If so, get him in it. If your school doesn't have one, maybe your church does. If your church doesn't, or if you have no church, maybe some community agency does.

You should look at how you and his father are handling the divorce when your son is in a position to either see or hear you. Most parents know they shouldn't speak ill of the other parent when their child is present. Many however, do not extend this prohibition to speaking with a friend or family member on the phone. If you're doing it when your son is in the house, he knows about it and probably has overheard you. Simply put, don't do it unless your son is out of the house. Ask his father to do the same. Demand that your parents, siblings, friends and others with whom your son spends any time do the same.

This is the problem in a nutshell (as far as I can tell). The father is a complete ass-wipe and tells the kids amazingly horrible things about her (and some things I'm sure she wouldn't want me to share here). He lives with his parents and his mother hates her (even called her names while she was there, right in front of the kids). It's a horrible situation and there's absolutely nothing she can do. He refuses to be involved at all and undermines everything she tries to do. Trust me, she is an amazing mother who spends almost every moment trying to help them adjust. He's a dickless wonder who uses every excuse to not see them (some are too shocking to be believed), then spoils them shamelessly for the time he has them.

He would completely refuse any type of counseling, and even balked at the kids getting counseling, despite some pretty extreme symptoms. I agree with you that her SO should stay away from the kids for now. It's just too much instability. I can't offer any advice except to say keep trying baby. You're doing your best and it is helping. I just wish it wasn't so hard.