what qualifies a person to crit stories?

[secretagentx5]

recently, i have entered into a rather heated argument with a lit author over what qualifies a person to criticize another's stories.

she believes that i have no place at all telling her what i think about her stories, because i myself have no submissions.

i assert that anybody who is capable of reading the story has an intrinsic right to judge it, and thus comment on it.
_____________________

any other thoughts on this issue?

 

[Huckleman2000]

I haven't submitted a story - yet. But I try to comment when I think I can help improve the writing. Just because I haven't submitted anything on Lit. doesn't mean that I haven't written other things. I've also had some acting experience, and used that frame of reference to offer suggestions to some writers here.

My rules of thumb are: first, find a strength in the writing and comment on that. Second, try to provide practical, technical suggestions for improvement, with examples. Third, separate the writing from the kinks. There are lots of sexual practices that don't excite my libido, but they can nonetheless make for fine reading enjoyment.

Believe it or not, I don't masturbate to EVERYTHING I read here. And I'm okay with that.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

That’s a damned good question, and I think it really depends on what kind of criticism you’re talking about.

Once you get beyond the basics like spelling and grammar, you can divide literary criticism into two broad categories: criticism of content and criticism of style. The content is basically what the story’s about. Style concerns the technique of telling the story.

In my experience, most non-authors tend to criticize the content of a story: they like/don’t like the way some character acts, the story strikes them as silly or very moving, they find the sex to be really exciting or a turn-off, things like that.

Most authors, on the other hand, tend look at the story in terms of craftsmanship. Do the sentences flow? Are there a lot of cliches? Is the dialogue realistic? Are the characters realistic? How do they reveal their character?

The two categories overlap, but over at the Story Discussion Board, where authors do some pretty close analyses of each other's stories, you see a lot of critiquing of style. Content is mentioned only insofar as it affects the telling of the story, so you’ll hardly ever see someone saying that they didin't like a story because they didn’t care for the type of sex involved, or because cheating wives make them angry.

I like to think that most people have an opinion of the stuff they read, whether it’s just like it/hate it, so everyone’s entitled to their opinions in that regard and you can’t argue with opinions. But when you get down to arguments over style, you might need an author’s experience to understand the particular problems someone encountered in writing a story and how they handled it.

Overall I’d say that, if you have an opinion of a story that goes beyond mere content, and if you can articulate that opinion and defend it, then you’ve got as much right to air your opinion as anyone else. Certainly an author’s saying, “You’re not a writer so you have no right to talk” is nonsense. You don't have to be a chef to know when the soup's bad, and you don't have to be a writer to have an opinion of a story.

---dr.M.

 

[brightlyiburn]

If you post only an insult, with no reasoning whatsoever backing it, then you should not be talking. It is one thing to offer constructive criticism. To be completely rude, however, is unneccessary.
And then to be insulting, without having attempted yourself to write, without having subjected yourself to the ups and downs of readers? Sorry, but I do believe that no one has a right to do that. If you want to offer something constuctive, fine. He, however, did no such thing. Simply a "that was boring", with no reason why, and not even a hint of suggestion on how it could improve. I can't imagine there are too many writers who would appreciate that.
Worse, although he claims not to like my work, he proceeded to read 8 whole chapters. Call me crazy, but if something truly bores me, I simply do not read EIGHT chapters of it. On the flipside, he insisted my work was all the same, having read only ONE of my stories. Such a complete contradiction, there. I have had plenty of people not like one of my works, but love another of them.
I look at it like this. I do not like Britney Spears or the image she presents. And I really don't like her music. But I won't insult it, because I don't have an album sitting on the shelf.
Either way, whether you write or not, you shouldn't be throwing around insults. Period.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Wow, maybe I'm naive, but I would hope that unsubstantiated negative comments without suggestions for improvement falls well outside the bounds of decency for anyone, whether they write or not.

Dr. M. has a good point when he separates the feedback into Content and Style. I didn't address Content feedback in my earlier post because I don't generally give that sort of comment, unless it's positive. I just don't think there's much I can provide in that vein, especially because there are obviously many different content objectives in the stories here. I guess that's what I was trying to say, when I said that I don't masturbate to everything I read here.

If a story bores me, or just isn't my cup of tea, I think the thing to do is simply go onto the next one. Why waste more of my time? Certainly, going out of one's way to simply say "That sucked" is not criticism, it's just being rude. Anyone is entitled to an opinion, but that isn't a license to insult people. If there is an "ignore this user" function, those are the kind of people it's made for.

 

[secretagentx5]

Simply a "that was boring", with no reason why, and not even a hint of suggestion on how it could improve....he proceeded to read 8 whole chapters. Call me crazy, but if something truly bores me, I simply do not read EIGHT chapters of it. On the flipside, he insisted my work was all the same, having read only ONE of my stories. Such a complete contradiction

i was certain that my crit was more direct than that.
if i remember correctly, i said your writing was stale, and that all of your characters were the same
imo, that is very direct criticism (though admittedly harsh. please accept my apologies for that).

the funniest thing, however, is that in all of our correspondences, you have not yet denied this, nor have you defended your stories.

in any event, i read 8 chapters of your first story because i enjoyed it. your second & third stories struck me as slightly alterred version of the first, with many of the same characterizations.
it's ridiculous that you would have different stories that star much the same protagonists over and over again.
hence, the comment on stale storylines/characters.
___________________________________
i dont have the time to battle words back and forth with you.
please accept my apology. i will try to be more sensitive with my posts in the future.
-x5

 

[secretagentx5]

double post
-sorry

 

[brightlyiburn]

If you enjoyed that particular story, why did you leave an insulting comment and a low score on a chapter of it? You should do that to the story you DON'T like, or send a private feedback. The scoring system on Lit pretty much sucks, and a low score does a lot more damage then a high score does good. Not that that matters all that much in the grand scheme of things, but it still isn't fair to me.
As I said to you, this is where I shuck my ideas. There's a lot of sameness because I have a lot of similar ideas in my head. Here, people appreciate that work, and a lot of the subtle differences that are there, but I can't get away with that in fantasy works. Better to get rid of it here.
Either way, you shouldn't leave feedback like that for anyone. Especially not on a story you like. There isn't a single person here who'd appreciate that.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Thank you both for confirming that occasionally, my gut instincts are right. It's rare enough that it's still a treat. But indeed, from the first post, my reptilian little hinder brain was whispering, "This is an invitation to a public airing of two people's personal grievances." It's good to know that not all of my instincts are as feeble as my stylistic ones.

Shanglan

 

[secretagentx5]

If you enjoyed that particular story, why did you leave an insulting comment and a low score on a chapter of it? You should do that to the story you DON'T like, or send a private feedback. As I said to you, this is where I shuck my ideas. There's a lot of sameness because I have a lot of similar ideas in my head.
Either way, you shouldn't leave feedback like that for anyone. Especially not on a story you like. There isn't a single person here who'd appreciate that.

i am not criticizing any particular story written by you. they are all written in an acceptable manner.
however, holistically, they are all slightly alterred images of each other. thats all im saying (and it seems like you admit to this fact).
it doesnt matter if i post my crit on the story that i enjoyed or the story that i found to be such a striking image of the first, because it applies to ALL of your stories.

ps-i never cast a vote on a single story written by you, because i know that individually they are not bad stories. my criticism is on your collection of works as a whole.

 

[Desamy]

These are dangerous waters to wade into, and I don't want to get in the middle of a 'fight' between the both of you, so I'll just state my thing and move on!
Anyone is entitled to an opinion. The real thing you should think about is, who is this person to you? The one giving the opinion. Are they someone you know well, whose opinion you value for it's meaning behind it, someone who has read all your works and watched you progress and continue to write, someone who has in the past given you criticism that was constructive, etc.
I know it's VERY easy to be pulled down by one single comment that is negative, no matter how absolutely silly it is. A single sentence as brief as 'you suck' can have such a huge negative effect if you let your mind wonder as to.. 'Oh boy, do I really suck? What didn't they like? Maybe I made a mistake doing this, or that, maybe I should change what I'm doing.. oh crap, maybe I should just give up and never write again.'
I fall into the trap of negative thinking very easily.
However, if you can get yourself in the right frame of mind, try and take negative feedback as positively as you can. Think.. well, "They took the time to comment, so maybe what they said has some measure of truth in it. Are my stories really all very similar to each other, and should I maybe work on encorporating different styles and themes to each chapter or story I write, rather than writing the same way? Maybe I'll get a better following that way..." Or simply, "'you suck'? No, I don't actually."
With this said, I have not read any of your works yet, so I am not saying anything personal that I feel pertaining to your writings.. just stating my feelings.

Best of luck in your future writings.
Desamy

 

[hiddenself]

Either way, you shouldn't leave feedback like that for anyone. Especially not on a story you like. There isn't a single person here who'd appreciate that.

Really? It's nice to know that people like you exist who are so knowledgeable about what every other person should do or would appreciate.

 

[thebullet]

Those who can, write.
Those who can't, criticize.

No really, Dr. M. is quite correct. too many non-writers on the website make their criticism based upon content rather than style. There are some writers who have essentially a single plot line that they use for every story. In that case, content criticism is justified. One of my pet peeves is the criticism leveled at Loving Wives stories. Most is based only on the outcome: a divorce makes the story a good one; a reconcilliation makes the story disgusting. Style, humor, charactarizations, plot, count for nothing.

I read a story for style, usually. I am enthralled by certain writers; the pictures the words paint, the ease of transition from one concept to the next, the humor, the sadness, the erotica.

Related to the original concepts of this particular string, I think that some authors are pretty thin skinned. We aren't writing fucking War and Peace here, you know. Most of us are fledgling writers. I haven't noticed any posts by J D Salinger. And our readership comes here for the most part looking for porn! They aren't the Algonquin Round Table. Mostly they are average or more likely below-average joes. What kind of fucking criticism to you expect from them?

I suggest that if you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen. I myself enjoy most of brightlyburn's work, but am amused or annoyed at the comments she puts at the beginning of her chapters, usually complaining about her readership.

Lighten up, BB. This is supposed to be fun.

 

[BlackShanglan]

but am amused or annoyed at the comments she puts at the beginning of her chapters, usually complaining about her readership.

Indeed. The real turning point in Yeats's plays is when he stops writing endnotes trying to educate his audience (who on earth reads endnotes to a play?) and letters and editorials complaining about them ... and starts writing for them. Remarkable difference.

But, as bullet points out as well, know who they are. Know if you care to please them. Start collecting in your head the list of readers whose opinions you care about, writers whose goals are similar to yours and who appreciate stories that you think are good. Please them. Who cares if the same idiot who uses the mispelled pseudo-word "whimpy" in every one of the seemingly endless complaints about "loving wives" stories flames you? Why would you care? You might as well vent your ire on a jackass braying at you from its field.

Real criticism is grounded; painful, sometimes, for that gounding, but useful for the same reason. Personally, I know that commentary is really hitting its mark when it's a bit hard to take - not because it raises the hot, irritable smart one feels from the scorn of an idiot, but because it gives that deeper, more painful, but ultimately more fruitful awareness of a genuine flaw that needs fixing. It is always tempting to fight that awareness; it is never wise.

Shanglan

 

[GingerV]

Shoot. Shanglan's got a better flame detecter than I do, I was thinking it actually was a good question. So, since I'm not the only one. I'm just gonna treat it like such, and let the fight go on in the background if it must.

Because I grin like a child on Christmas morning every time I get a note saying, "I loved your story," I'm not going to say that responses purely about content are useless. I MEAN to evoke a response in readers, how can I ever assert that they have no right to express their opinion back? I try not to let negative comments about content drag me down, because I enjoy my own stories (is that bad of me? Would a good writer always be a tortured artist who never feels she got it right? Nevermind, different subject). Vague negative feedback indicates, to me, that I'm not writing something that's universally appealing. Yeah, it makes me sad. And yeah, I'm unhappy, but I try to shake it off. Besides, if it wasn't for the atta-girls, I'm not sure I'd hear much at all .

While I think everyone has a right to an opinion about what I write, I hope that those who need to say something negative to me about it realize that their comments are going to hurt and are just but careful in how the put them. [NOTE: nothing to do about the exchange that started this, I pass no comment nor judgement there either way.] I myself usually don't take the time to write unsolicited feedback unless I liked the story. I don't like the idea that I'm dropping a nastrygram into someone's else's day. But like I said, that's just me.

But my final, selfish defense of non-authorial (oooh, I like the new word, can I keep it?) input: sometimes, it's all you have. The writers here love to write, me included. I haven't written nearly as many reviews as I should (going to try to fix some of that today), and I haven't received nearly as many as I'd hoped for. That said, without the encouragement from non-authors I'd probably have given up already. So I'm going to say that have both right and the obligation to continue.

G

 

[vargas111]

Certainly one does not need to be a writer to offer useful insight. As the receiver of a comment, I would naturally give more creidit to a fellow author than a not author, but withlut disqualifying a non-author.

I do get annoyed at a comment that is both negative, and anonymous. I wish-wish-wish there were a way to disqualify anonymous commenting!

These I have started deleting.

And no one, author or not, should be rude.

 

[secretagentx5]

I do get annoyed at a comment that is both negative, and anonymous. I wish-wish-wish there were a way to disqualify anonymous commenting!

i believe that you can enter your profile options and disallow anonymous feedback

 

[vargas111]

I have tried, and it still gets throught!