"What man is a man who does not make the world better?"

[LoveIsAllYouNeed]

The title is a line from the movie "Kingdom of Heaven".

It raises a question much on my mind this morning.

What obligation do we, as writers, owe ourselves, our audience and thus the world when it comes to the principles we advocate?

I can advocate Love, as it is a principle I believe in.

I could never advocate rape, under any conditions.

When I write, I consider, "what if someone is inspired to emulate what I've written ... to view others as I've described, to treat others as I've described?"

It creates a sense of social responsibility to others to not describe something unless I've validated it for myself, through experience.

I've been reading stories in the bdsm category, and I am appalled at the sheer volume of dehumanizing behaviour which, if carried out in real life, would lead to the destruction of self-esteem with all the dysfunctions that go with it.

And I wonder: does the author really believe this is how things should be done? Is this what the author wants others to believe? Is this why there are so many dysfunctional individuals involved in bdsm? Is this why there are so many preds?

As writers we are part of the process that conditions people to think and act in certain ways. One need only look at stories like Lord of the Rings, Star Trek or Star Wars to see the influence stories have on society.

So when an author advocates kidnapping and rape and through deus ex machina the victim "loves it", exactly what kind of world is being created?

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

It seems that you are trying to start a dispute rather than ask a question. Do you think that coming onto a porn board and making broad stabs at everyone who writes here just because you don't agree with something you find morally reprehensible to be wise? It is not my responsibility to defend anyone or anything written on this site. Having said that, however, I do feel pretty strongly about the idea of freedom of speech.

There are many things in this world of ours and on this site that I don't necessarily like to read or think about. But, the beauty of this country is that I can choose not to read subjects I am uninterested in. Likewise, I can choose to read the ones I am interested in. I have that right, and so do you.

When you start trying to dissuade people from reading or writing about ideas or issues that you find reprehensible, you are walking on a slippery slope. Would you prefer a society in which one person or group of people makes all the decisions about what we as a free nation can read, watch or write?

If someone writes about rape or pedophilia, does that make them a rapist or a pedophile? Are all writers (especially on a porn board, for Christ's sake) supposed to try to write to inspire the masses? Don't be ridiculous. This is wank material, not Shakespeare.

You need to take your moral superiority and go sell it somewhere more appropriate. I don't think you're going to find many takers here.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

No, I don't think writers have a duty to their readers. When writers publish a story they are like mendiants begging for the crumbs of approval from the disdainful passers-by. The gladiatorial thumbs-up (or down) is speedily given from the tribunes.

Fiction here is an erotic fantasy that eases the escape valves of male and female passion. Sure, from a female pov, I don't go a bundle on the depersonification of some bdsm, fetish and non-consent posts.

However, I know in my black heart I harbor secret fantasies of submission and can play them out on lit.

Isn't it so much better that male writers can defuse their mysogynistic drive in the discipine of writing fiction?

PS: I agree with everything lebiaphrodite said.

 

[LoveIsAllYouNeed]

First, this is not a free speech issue and to suggest otherwise is to create a distraction to the issue I've raised.

At no point have I suggested censorship, nor state-intervention.

I have asked what moral obligation we have to ourselves, our audience and thus the world to advocate our beliefs and not advocate beliefs we do not hold to be true.

"When you start trying to dissuade people from reading or writing about ideas or issues that you find reprehensible, you are walking on a slippery slope."

And is this not what you are doing with me, trying to persuade me not to even discuss the question of morality and personal responsibility?

If in the name of "free speech" you would advocate we -not- discuss certain topics because this is a "porn site", I must question your concept of "free speech".

Perhaps in response you might address the issue I've raised.

 

[LoveIsAllYouNeed]

"Isn't it so much better that male writers can defuse their mysogynistic drive in the discipine of writing fiction?"

Don't you mean "propagate and advocate their mysogynistic drive through the distribution of their fiction?""?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

During my years of psychiatric work I witnessed all kinds of strange reactions to ordinary and deviant stimuli.

Touch 99 people with a lit cigarette and they howl, touch one more person with the same cigarette and they orgasm. Rape 99 people and theyre traumatized, rape one more and their chronic major depression evaporates.

Generally speaking, 67% of people do not like rape or burns at all, 16% dont like it a whole bunch, and 16% kinda do.

Sameo-sameo if someone calls you on the phone to report they at a bottle of pills or have a pistol pointed at their skulls. Most therapists freak-out, a very few go to work defusing the bomb.

Ditto for writing. What pushes one person over the cliff bores 99 to tears.

 

[LoveIsAllYouNeed]

Before I am going to believe rape benefits anyone, I'd want to see some hard evidence to support the claim.

If one is willing to provide would-be rapists with a handy excuse for comitting the crime, how much responsibility does one bear for the crimes committed?

How many women have been traumatized because of men who have read stories here that told them rape is good for women?

How many would-be rapists find their urges valdated in the stories to such an extent they act on their impulses?

 

[oggbashan]

I write fiction.

What my characters believe and/or advocate and what I believe and/or advocate are different. All my stories are fantasy.

That is what fiction is about.

I don't feel any moral obligation to make my heros/heroines perfect nor to redeem my villains.

Og

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Sorry dear, I dont have time today to knock the chip off your shoulder. But I'll be your huckleberry another time!

 

[LoveIsAllYouNeed]

Sorry dear, I dont have time today to knock the chip off your shoulder. But I'll be your huckleberry another time!

~smile~

Unless you normally address men in their fifties who look like Santa as "dear", I will assume that was a touch of misogynistic condescension and treat it as such.

You make an outrageous claim that rape is good for women (1 in 100 would be 30,000,000 women world-wide who, according to you, need to be raped to be healthy), and then bow out.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

WHY DO I SMELL JERKALOOP IN THE BUILDING?

Uh! Youre stuffing words in my mouth. Re-read my post.

I prefer to think of me as chauvinist and misanthropic, I dont like anybody. And you reinforce my prejudices.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

"Isn't it so much better that male writers can defuse their mysogynistic drive in the discipine of writing fiction?"

Don't you mean "propagate and advocate their mysogynistic drive through the distribution of their fiction?""?

No. Though I don't like it, a load of guys get their rocks off by seeing, reading, writing stuff that they would never put into their real lives.

I write my fantasies - often involving submission - and guys write theirs - often involving control and discipline of compliant females. Get a life. The 'Da Vinci Code' with albino self-flagellation is pretty homo-fetish and R-rated.

 

[jomar]

Just like rock-n-roll is the devil's tool and causes all kinds of murder and mayhem.

 

[3113]

I will assume that was a touch of misogynistic condescension and treat it as such.

Okay. First, I suggest you put JJ there on ignore. He is a troll and to him you look like nothing more than fresh meat. His aim is to push your buttons. He gets off on that. Second....

I've been reading stories in the bdsm category, and I am appalled at the sheer volume of dehumanizing behaviour which, if carried out in real life, would lead to the destruction of self-esteem with all the dysfunctions that go with it.

You ask about making the world a better place, yet you don't go down into the BDSM forum and ask, "how does BDSM make you better?" or even "Do BDSM stories make your life better?" You just assume that it makes things worse.

I think the objection here is not about censorship, it's about making absolute moral judgments standing in your shoes and no one else's. I really investigated BDSM before I wrote any of it, and what I learned was that there were people desperate, and I mean desperate need for this sort of emotional and psychological release. Time and again, a sub would say, "I was miserable, then I found my master, and who and what I was, and now I'm so happy!" And it didn't matter whether the sub was male or female, or their Dom was male or female, they all said this. In short, you are ONLY right about BDSM if it's being done to an unwilling person. But those who go into BDSM usually want it, either to give or receive. Both are willing and trusting participants. And they feel better after they get/give this kind of treatment, not worse.

If the aim is to leave the world a better place, then what does it matter how person goes about achieving that end so long as that end is reached? And in BDSM, as you'll find out if you actually go and ASK some BDSM people why this is what they read and enjoy, gives that to them. As for us porn writers, we are pretty lucky in that when it comes to porn, few people read what doesn't turn them on. Except for people like you, apparently. This is your other fatal mistake. And I need only ask one question to prove this: Having read all those BDSM stories, do you now feel your sexual desires have changed and you now want what you saw in those stories? if not, then you can't assume that we're transforming people into sexual deviants. Either they already want that kind of sex, and we're just feeding it to them, or they don't and they don't read it. Or won't be changed by it if they do.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

"Isn't it so much better that male writers can defuse their mysogynistic drive in the discipine of writing fiction?"

Don't you mean "propagate and advocate their mysogynistic drive through the distribution of their fiction?""?

You are out of your tree. There is no 'propagate and advocate' just healthy release in fiction (FANTASY), that has to be well written here.

You seem to propose some vague form of censorship that is alien to every writer on this site. You fail to understand the differnce between fiction and real life.

 

[3113]

Now that we've covered that, let's get to a few other fatal assumptions you make:

And I wonder: does the author really believe this is how things should be done? Is this what the author wants others to believe?

Fatal assumption: the assumption that what the characters in a fiction believe is what the writer believes. It is very hard, indeed, for a writer to be completely invisible, but a good writer can put themselves into characters like an actor into the parts they play.

Would you ask an actor playing the part of a rapist if this meant they believed in rape? The actor would say, "It's a part, it's not me." And likewise with a writer. We only need look around at the world to find our characters, and our stories. And sometimes, we write them up because they are what IS, not what we believe.

Is this why there are so many dysfunctional individuals involved in bdsm? Is this why there are so many preds?

This is a very, very, VERY insulting assumption. First, once again, I suggest you go down to the BDSM forum do your research. You'll find that very few of those people are "dysfunctional." Second, lumping BDSM with pedophilia? Shame on you! Where did you get your degree in psychology?

Third, do you really believe that a porn story can turn a person into someone who wants BDSM? Or into a pedophile? If so, then, once again, you need to sue the university that gave you that psychology degree--and start doing better research yourself on what creates a pedophile.

As writers we are part of the process that conditions people to think and act in certain ways.

We are? Fatal assumption number...oh, dear. I've lost count.

One need only look at stories like Lord of the Rings, Star Trek or Star Wars to see the influence stories have on society.

You've taken well written sagas that relate to certain basic myths that appeal to a wide range of people. Like the big battle between good and evil, or the quest, and such. You don't name a single porn story, let alone a BDSM one. Though if you'd like to toss in The Passion of Christ, I'll completely agree. Also, two out of the three of these are on film. Find us a single porn story that has done what these have done. Otherwise, you're comparing apples and oranges.

So when an author advocates kidnapping and rape and through deus ex machina the victim "loves it", exactly what kind of world is being created?

A fantasy world. Like in Star Wars, Star Trek and Lord of the Rings. That's why people like to read it. Because it's fantasy.

 

[PhaonsBrother]

You are out of your tree. There is no 'propagate and advocate' just healthy release in fiction (FANTASY), that has to be well written here.

You seem to propose some vague form of censorship that is alien to every writer on this site. You fail to understand the differnce between fiction and real life.

Censoring your own thoughts and desires is sort of the path he's on. As if the Commandments weren't enough... Writing a story(fantasy) about screwing your real life neighbor's wife is the same as the thought censorship of the Bible Commandment. Moral people have immoral thoughts and desires. The measure of a man, what makes a man, is only how he acts in real life. Has nothing to do with how perverted he is in his head. There aren't more readers on this site cheating on their wives just because 'Loving Wives' is one of the most popular categories on this website.

Expression of any and all human desire is healthy and one of the core principles of writing. Loveisallyouneed is stepping heavily into the anti-art past with his generalizations. And actually, he's asking for evidence for other people's claims when he hasn't shown any for his, that advocating anything perverse in fiction leads to more pracitioners of the perversion. Anyway, before you can get to that, where's the evidence that people are actually advocating anything when they write a non-consent story or any story at all?

 

[LoveIsAllYouNeed]

No. Though I don't like it, a load of guys get their rocks off by seeing, reading, writing stuff that they would never put into their real lives.

Yes, a "load of guys ... would never put into their real lives" material they read here.

What of those who do?

Does advocating rape make for a better world?

 

[PhaonsBrother]

Loveisallyouneed isn't forthright either, as he's written a story in the bdsm category, to quote:

"But in a master/slave relationship, the slave invites the pain, experiences the pain, and is grateful for the pain afterwards. For her the pain is like an opportunity for her to show how much she loves, how much she will endure for love, how much she needs the challenge so she can learn to love more, and better.

"For a slave, pain is a growth experience, provided it comes at the hands of her master in whom she trusts and knows herself to be completely safe."


So what is Love's program? Does he incite conflict for the sake of getting people to read his work? What does that say of his morality?

 

[LoveIsAllYouNeed]

Okay. First, I suggest you put JJ there on ignore. He is a troll and to him you look like nothing more than fresh meat. His aim is to push your buttons. He gets off on that.

Thank you. I arrived at a similar conclusion independantly.

Second....
You ask about making the world a better place, yet you don't go down into the BDSM forum and ask, "how does BDSM make you better?" or even "Do BDSM stories make your life better?" You just assume that it makes things worse.

Actually, uou are making a few assumptions here.

First, I was not aware there was a bdsm forum here. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

Second, regarding BDSM per se, I have addressed many issues regarding bdsm, both in my posted story and in a variety of fora where I've spoken, whenever I've found myself single during the internet age.

And third, I do not assume bdsm stories make life worse. I've written one which I believe would make life better for those who practice bdsm. I am sure mine is not the only one.

I think the objection here is not about censorship, it's about making absolute moral judgments standing in your shoes and no one else's. I really investigated BDSM before I wrote any of it, and what I learned was that there were people desperate, and I mean desperate need for this sort of emotional and psychological release. Time and again, a sub would say, "I was miserable, then I found my master, and who and what I was, and now I'm so happy!" And it didn't matter whether the sub was male or female, or their Dom was male or female, they all said this. In short, you are ONLY right about BDSM if it's being done to an unwilling person. But those who go into BDSM usually want it, either to give or receive. Both are willing and trusting participants. And they feel better after they get/give this kind of treatment, not worse.

In a loving relationship this is all true.

In a casual affair, not at all true.

If the aim is to leave the world a better place, then what does it matter how person goes about achieving that end so long as that end is reached?

How many tmes has "the end justifies the means" been used to abuse people?

And in BDSM, as you'll find out if you actually go and ASK some BDSM people why this is what they read and enjoy, gives that to them.

I suggest you do some research before making assumptions about me.

"An extremely well expressed appreciation for the delicate intricacies of a loving BDSM relationship. I'm amazed to find such a gem on a site that usually attracts second and third rate drivel. It also seems that you have been found by one of the third rate readers who feel compelled to leave anonymous nasty remarks that have nothing to do with the quality of the writing. Please weigh carefully the feedback that you receive and take to heart the sincere appreciation that will come your way for the fine piece of work that you have been so gracious to share."

"A beautifully written, fully realized story that reveals so much about the intense balance and commitment the best Master/submissive relationships achieve. Whilst I have been blessed to find such a Master, I have yet to achieve being such a submissive. Your story has helped me clarify some of my own issues, and realize ways in which I can progress."

"That has got to be one of the best relationship-based BSDM stories ever written on this site. I am very much outgunned, and my hat is off to you."

Reviews of "Love, A Short Trilogy"
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=427604

As for us porn writers, we are pretty lucky in that when it comes to porn, few people read what doesn't turn them on. Except for people like you, apparently. This is your other fatal mistake. And I need only ask one question to prove this: Having read all those BDSM stories, do you now feel your sexual desires have changed and you now want what you saw in those stories? if not, then you can't assume that we're transforming people into sexual deviants. Either they already want that kind of sex, and we're just feeding it to them, or they don't and they don't read it. Or won't be changed by it if they do.

~smile~

I am in no way typical of the readership here.

Nor am I typical of the authors, judging from the responses to this topic.

To claim you have to write what the consumers want is a cop-out, since we each have a conscience with which we must live and making any unethical choice affects us first, before we ever write the story.

If the world you wish to create through the influence of your writing is one where anyone can feel enabled to kidnap and rape anyone they choose, then that is the world you will describe.

It will be mothers, wives and daughters who pay the price for what little profit might be made out of it.

 

[LoveIsAllYouNeed]

You are out of your tree. There is no 'propagate and advocate' just healthy release in fiction (FANTASY), that has to be well written here.

You seem to propose some vague form of censorship that is alien to every writer on this site. You fail to understand the differnce between fiction and real life.

Actually, Elfin, I speak of conscience.

You speak of it as censorship, and I find that an interesting association to be made.

If conscience=censorship, and censorchip is alien to the writers here, then so must it be with conscience too.

N'est pas?

 

[PhaonsBrother]

To quote Love's BDSM story again:

"This isn't like ice cubes" her mind told her as the tips of her dainty toes tried to keep her from sinking further into the two foot snow drift.

Her slim wrists cuffed together snugly and roped to the branch of a cedar, above her.

She stood perfectly erect, her back arched and her breasts heaving gently as she exhaled, her breath turning to a fine vapour in the sub-zero temperatures of the forest.

With every breath the tips of her nipples slid across the pink silk camisole that was her only protection from the wind.

She had never known how much the sensation of silk could make her ache to be touched, but her nipples responded, protruding and hardening like rivets.

Her master had not said a word. Not since he snapped the leash to her collar and said, softly, "come".

Her eyes flashed to his, wide and questioning, and then looked down in complete faith and surrender.

She'd been led to this place, to this tree. Bound in this way, her feet, freezing.

She could only look into his eyes. She could only trust him.

-----------------------------------------------------------

How could she trust you to not get a sub-zero injury? Is your character a doctor, an EMT? You must be advocating for the very real risk of serious injury beyond the games of BDSM. Is that part of you and your character's pleasure principle? That the very real risk that you might cause hypothermia/injury to your slave and have her just trust that you know what the physiological signs are and be able to treat her correctly? It's all so silly, why not write some better poems and stories with all the time you have to think of such things.

 

[LoveIsAllYouNeed]

Now that we've covered that, let's get to a few other fatal assumptions you make:

Fatal assumption: the assumption that what the characters in a fiction believe is what the writer believes. It is very hard, indeed, for a writer to be completely invisible, but a good writer can put themselves into characters like an actor into the parts they play.

Would you ask an actor playing the part of a rapist if this meant they believed in rape? The actor would say, "It's a part, it's not me." And likewise with a writer. We only need look around at the world to find our characters, and our stories. And sometimes, we write them up because they are what IS, not what we believe.

I assume you've heard of "method acting", wherein the actor places himself in the shoes of the character, becoming the character.

The truth is whether as writers or actors, we cannot convincingly depict a character whose motivation and goals we do not understand.

If we cannot find some part of ourselves that longs to live as a character lives, we will not depict the character accurately.

Villains, in mainstream, are opposed by heroes, and according to the code of justice which the mainstream crave, villains always meet a just reward.

Not so here. Here, villains glorify their acts, are unopposed, often worshipped by their victims in some sort of "Stockholm Syndrome" state of mind.

Rapists go uncaught, here.

A writer makes a choice about which genre to write, which approach to take, what characters to include and what outcome to end with. To say a writer has to do anything is absurd.

Its called taking responsibility for the choices you make.

How many rapes are worth the almighty buck?

Third, do you really believe that a porn story can turn a person into someone who wants BDSM? Or into a pedophile?

I didn't say either.

What I asked is what responsibility does a writer take for writing a story that advocates abuse?

You've taken well written sagas that relate to certain basic myths that appeal to a wide range of people. Like the big battle between good and evil, or the quest, and such. You don't name a single porn story, let alone a BDSM one. Though if you'd like to toss in The Passion of Christ, I'll completely agree. Also, two out of the three of these are on film. Find us a single porn story that has done what these have done. Otherwise, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Are you suggesting that because Star Trek has conventions and rapists do not that there must not be any kind of influence from reading stories that advocate rape?

Have we not been aware of how the media influences the masses since the time of Goebbels?

A fantasy world. Like in Star Wars, Star Trek and Lord of the Rings. That's why people like to read it. Because it's fantasy.

They do more than just read Star Trek or LoTR. They apply the principles they read in these stories to their real lives.

That is my point in comparing them.

It may escape many, but the fact is the Bible was written by writers, just as the Constitution of the United States was written by writers.

Anyone doubt the influence of these documents?

Writers change the world by envisioning new ones.

What world is being created by envisioning a world where rape is glorified?

 

[LoveIsAllYouNeed]

The measure of a man, what makes a man, is only how he acts in real life.

Let's examine that premise.

If a man chooses to write a story advocating rape, that is "how he acts in real life".

If he distributes that story encouraging other to consider his advocacy, that is "how he acts in real life".

So what can be said about a man who, in real life, is advocating rape through the stories he writes and publishes?

And actually, he's asking for evidence for other people's claims when he hasn't shown any for his, that advocating anything perverse in fiction leads to more pracitioners of the perversion.

"Mein Kampf"
Author - A. Hitler

 

[PhaonsBrother]

"I could never advocate rape, under any conditions."

You'd have to show that there is a single story on this site that advocates rape. How could you even show such a thing? You've started in the middle of the process, grown too big for your britches. There are better ways to analyze and discuss morality in art. Making sweeping generalizations on a message board isn't the best way to come to know yourself and your artistic impact.

I know what an advocate for gay rights looks like. He's my next door neighbor. I don't think you know what an 'advocate for rape' looks or writes like. I have an idea what an advocate for rape might look like--someone who has and will rape. Saying someone who writes a story where someone gets raped is a promoter of rape is off this rational planet.