What Makes You Stop?

[Guest]

"You must spank her well, and after you are done with her, you may deal with her as you like... and then... spank me!
And me! And me too! And me!
Yes! Yes, you must give us all a good spanking!
And after the spanking, the oral sex!"

i really wish you were a chick.
*dreamy sigh*

 

[cheerful_deviant]

i really wish you were a chick.
*dreamy sigh*

I may have to put that in my sig line.

 

[Guest]

There are some masterpieces of phonetic writing, actually- Russell Hoban's "Riddley Walker" is incredible, for instance.

Those few times I've needed to "write an accent", I've fallen back on a standard practice -- a few lines in the "accented" speech, and then a careful reversion to regularly spelled words. Keep the nature of the accent with one or two words that are easily "heard" in the reader's mind, with the way sentences are structured and word choices/idiom. Every great while, when appropriate (usually after a long break away from the character in question) have another sentence or two in the "accented" speech. The idea is that, once the particular voice is established, it remains in the readers' minds and they will supply it whenever that character appears as long as the sentences spoken match in style. All the special spelling and punctuation just get in the way then.

As for spelling noises, the onomatopoeia has a purpose in the world. Spelling out moans, groans, screams and gurgles is, at best, a poor idea. You can get through such stuff much easier in a short bit of expository narrative.

Someone (was it 3113?) mentioned "masturbatory writing". That's a term I've used in workshop to describe the writing that an author writes "for him/her self". I think such writing is fine. There's no reason not to write for yourself and yourself alone. However, like masturbation, it's all about you, and if you chose to expose it to others, you have to accept that most people are going to wonder what's in it for THEM. Writing that we expect others to read has to be a little less "author centric", which is where all the rules about spelling, grammar, punctuation, style, structure, theme, plot...blah blah blah...comes in. Those are things readers understand, things they can use to get a grip on a story and enter into a world.

Like any creative art, it's fine to experiment, break rules, or color outside the lines, but it takes great mastery and genius to do it well, and many people will simply not follow along with you.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Excellent post, Malachite!
May I copy it and use it?- crediting you each time, of course

 

[Guest]

Excellent post, Malachite!
May I copy it and use it?- crediting you each time, of course

Thank you so much.

You may use it freely. I've cobbled it together from many a teacher and workshop leader, book and lecture.

(believe it or not, I actually wandered into this forum to talk about writing -- all the flirting, flitting, funning and flattery are just delicious extras!)

 

[JamesSD]

A lot of good points are made in this thread. At the same time, I have this feeling that what the members of this board look for in a story and what the "average" literotica reader look for may be quite different.

I'm not putting down the average reader. I just think he/she probably has a higher tolerance for things like measurements, minor spelling errors, and bland dialog. "Is it hot"? is something I really look for, and I don't think I'm the only one. "Hot" means different things to different people. "Hotness" can make up for literary shortcomings, while a story has to be pretty amazing if the situation isn't sexy.

At the end of the day, it's an erotica site, and if the reader doesn't find the story erotic, they probably aren't going to read/keep reading it.

 

[BlackShanglan]

There are some masterpieces of phonetic writing, actually- Russell Hoban's "Riddley Walker" is incredible, for instance.

Yes, that's a fabulous one. I haven't read The Color Purple and can't comment on that, but I think that Walker works because it's not actually a phonetic attempt to render an existing accent, but rather an attempt to show the reader what a semi-literate semi-feral future person's journal might look like. There, you're not in danger of lampooning anyone directly, so it's easier to go into it heavy without treading on anyone's toes. It does charge a certain entrance fee; it pitches itself to readers with the interest to get into that. But then, A Clockwork Orange does as well, and still is (I think) an excellent book.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Those few times I've needed to "write an accent", I've fallen back on a standard practice -- a few lines in the "accented" speech, and then a careful reversion to regularly spelled words. Keep the nature of the accent with one or two words that are easily "heard" in the reader's mind, with the way sentences are structured and word choices/idiom. Every great while, when appropriate (usually after a long break away from the character in question) have another sentence or two in the "accented" speech. The idea is that, once the particular voice is established, it remains in the readers' minds and they will supply it whenever that character appears as long as the sentences spoken match in style. All the special spelling and punctuation just get in the way then.

I can't read stories told in dialect. I just can't. All those apostrophes for dropped final g's or 'dese' and 'dose' for 'these' and 'those'-- I just can't take it. So when I had to use some dialect in a story, I checked to see how John O'Hara had done it back in the '40's. He's the best dialogue writer I know of, and he did it just like you say.

He establishes the dialect in the first couple of lines or speeches, using the 'deses' and dose' and final apostrophes as needed, and after he's planted it in your mind he drops it. An occasional reminder is all it takes after that, and you can read what they say and still hear the original dialect.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Someone (was it 3113?) mentioned "masturbatory writing". That's a term I've used in workshop to describe the writing that an author writes "for him/her self". I think such writing is fine. There's no reason not to write for yourself and yourself alone. However, like masturbation, it's all about you, and if you chose to expose it to others, you have to accept that most people are going to wonder what's in it for THEM. Writing that we expect others to read has to be a little less "author centric", which is where all the rules about spelling, grammar, punctuation, style, structure, theme, plot...blah blah blah...comes in. Those are things readers understand, things they can use to get a grip on a story and enter into a world.

Like any creative art, it's fine to experiment, break rules, or color outside the lines, but it takes great mastery and genius to do it well, and many people will simply not follow along with you.

This is such a good thought on so many levels. Your expansion of that idea of masturbatory writing to plot, grammar, structure, theme, etc is inspired and I think perfectly right. That is, any and all of those elements can be author-centric and author-driven, and those stories have their own value. They are not taboo or illicit, but they are also not for the audience. Writing well means writing well for other people, unless one intends only to keep a diary for one's own amusement. Undoubtedly most stories posted on Lit are posted on the "works for me" theory; most of the ones that could stand improvement I think need to start there, by seeking to find what works for others as well.

It's like learning that one's own particular and unusual fetish - take, for example, a *cough* fascination with 1800's dress - is not universal. We've all seen it, no doubt, in a story on Lit - that oddly intense focus on what appears to be a completely odd, out of place detail, an element from which the reader gains neither information nor excitement, but which for some reason the author pets and lingers over. Eventually we realize that we're looking at the "magic words"; either the image or the speech of the characters is the magic word to activate the author's libido, but s/he hasn't managed to convey what's sexy about it - only that it is the "open sesame" to this particular person's Ali Baba's cave (and I challenge you to find a more fabulously bizarre semi-physical metaphor this evening). It works so powerfully for the author that s/he doesn't need more than the magic words. Alas, we do, and so we are left standing somewhat embarassedly aside, letting the author get on with what clearly excites him/her, but can only baffle us.

Surely it's the same with any number of elements in stories. There's the character the author loves for reasons deeply rooted in his/her life and personality, but whose reasons for being lovable are never conveyed clearly to the reader. There's the plot that the author finds immensely interesting because it occurs in his or her home town, but which falls flat for anyone lacking the author's emotional connections to the locations. There's the grammar that to the author is a perfectly accurate reflection of how s/he speaks, but to readers is an annoying barrier to comprehension. Surely they are all masturbation of their own variety - writing just enough so that the author can understand what is meant, but not nearly enough that persons not privy to the author's thoughts and emotions can work out what it's all meant to lead to.

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

A lot of good points are made in this thread. At the same time, I have this feeling that what the members of this board look for in a story and what the "average" literotica reader look for may be quite different.

I'm not putting down the average reader. I just think he/she probably has a higher tolerance for things like measurements, minor spelling errors, and bland dialog. "Is it hot"? is something I really look for, and I don't think I'm the only one. "Hot" means different things to different people. "Hotness" can make up for literary shortcomings, while a story has to be pretty amazing if the situation isn't sexy.

At the end of the day, it's an erotica site, and if the reader doesn't find the story erotic, they probably aren't going to read/keep reading it.

I'll agree with that, to some extent. One of my favorite stories on Lit commits any number of errors on several levels (I have an overwhelming desire sometimes to clean it up -- I resist because it isn't mine) but appeals to me for ideas, character voices and many good turns of phrase. It's a hot story, in my view. However, those same problems detract from the story by distracting from my reading. I've read it several times, and the same problems always jump out at me. In my opinion, a little extra effort and editing would have made the story much, MUCH hotter and more entertaining to read. I don't know that writing well and writing "hot" are mutually exclusive.

It's true, the "average" Literotica reader may have lower standards or fewer demands on a story, but I don't know if that's something to really consider when writing. Why write to meet a low standard? After all, if they had "better" (that being an undefined term here) material to read, might not their standards go up and their demands become greater?

Standards are also relative. If you are looking through a collection of basically junky pieces of jewelry and are asked to pick the "best" one, chances are you will find something in one or two pieces that you like better than in the others. You might even like it enough to wear it, if those are your only choices and you very much want to wear some jewelry. It doesn't change the jewelry itself, only your perception of it.

And, of course, in picking stories one likes, everything is subjective and relative. When another writer asks my opinion on something they've written, I usually suggest they read something of mine and decide, based on that, if my opinion and ability, as displayed in the story, meets their standards. After all, if they don't like what I write, then my opinion on what they write is useless.

 

[Guest]

I can't read stories told in dialect. I just can't. All those apostrophes for dropped final g's or 'dese' and 'dose' for 'these' and 'those'-- I just can't take it. So when I had to use some dialect in a story, I checked to see how John O'Hara had done it back in the '40's. He's the best dialogue writer I know of, and he did it just like you say.

He establishes the dialect in the first couple of lines or speeches, using the 'deses' and dose' and final apostrophes as needed, and after he's planted it in your mind he drops it. An occasional reminder is all it takes after that, and you can read what they say and still hear the original dialect.

I try to steal all my best ideas from impeccable sources

 

[Guest]

It's like learning that one's own particular and unusual fetish...is not universal.

Oh, a famed author -- I want to say Samual Johnson, but I'm not sure -- advised writers to "kill your darlings". That is, remove from a story anything that one finds incredibly pleasing to one's self, be it a line of prose, a phrase, a character, an idea or a description. I'd say at least run it passed a sharp editor. Check it for "fetish" qualities.

Eventually we realize that we're looking at the "magic words"; either the image or the speech of the characters is the magic word to activate the author's libido, but s/he hasn't managed to convey what's sexy about it - only that it is the "open sesame" to this particular person's Ali Baba's cave (and I challenge you to find a more fabulously bizarre semi-physical metaphor this evening).

Now I'll have to spend all weekend trying to make up something to equal that one...or maybe I'll just save it in my collection of nifty sayings.

Surely it's the same with any number of elements in stories. There's the character the author loves for reasons deeply rooted in his/her life and personality, but whose reasons for being lovable are never conveyed clearly to the reader. .... Surely they are all masturbation of their own variety - writing just enough so that the author can understand what is meant, but not nearly enough that persons not privy to the author's thoughts and emotions can work out what it's all meant to lead to.

Shanglan

Yes, exactly. There's a long running debate among those who study literature about the relationship in a story of writer to reader, and how much each "participates" in the story. Some think the reader is completely passive, some think the author is the less active, and there are many places along the continuum. But the "masturbatory author" is the sole actor in the story he or she writes. Since this author is satisfied at the end of the story, he or she assumes the reader will be as well -- and how do most of us treat a lover who treats us thusly?

In Literotica, the most we can do is backclick or drop a low vote and comment.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Since this author is satisfied at the end of the story, he or she assumes the reader will be as well -- and how do most of us treat a lover who treats us thusly?

You capture the eros of literature beautifully. Our authors - our good ones - are our lovers.

(Or is that in the realms of "personal and incomprehensible fetish"? )

 

[Boxlicker101]

Some stories I just don't care for, such as BDSM. I don't back click on them because I don't click on in the first place. I write some stories classed as BDSM but they are just affectionate tying up or spanking when the woman gets off on it. Some day I will probably write about a man getting off on it but I haven't yet.

I don't like D/s or torture or humiliation or enslavement unless it is science fiction, and if a story is of that type, I stop reading and don't vote or leave a comment.

If I run into really lousy grammar or punctuation or spelling, I will also stop and leave a low vote (but not a one-bomb) and a PC that includes my name. Nothing anon for me.

If a story is racist or sexist, I will look ahead to see if it stays in that vein. If it does, and is not some sort of a comuppance story, I stop. If it is extreme enough, I would be tempted to one-bomb it and leave a comment. I never have but I might some day.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And this is one of my favorite gems from this discussion, too;

Eventually we realize that we're looking at the "magic words"; either the image or the speech of the characters is the magic word to activate the author's libido, but s/he hasn't managed to convey what's sexy about it - only that it is the "open sesame" to this particular person's Ali Baba's cave (and I challenge you to find a more fabulously bizarre semi-physical metaphor this evening).

and the reason I love it goes along with this thought from Malachite;

There's a long running debate among those who study literature about the relationship in a story of writer to reader, and how much each "participates" in the story. Some think the reader is completely passive, some think the author is the less active, and there are many places along the continuum.

There's a certain passive-aggressive pleasure for the accomplished- or perhaps jaded and decadent- reader, in discovering these unwitting tags that show the reader's true self... *snerk*

An "erotica" novel from the nineties, called "Vox" had one single erotic passage in it, by my standards. I'll have to paraphrase it- but it talked about seeing a shelf of paperback romances in a used book store. Each one had a battered cover, and a creased back. Any one of these books, taken off the shelf, would fall open at one particular spot- the point where the dashing hero finally meets the firey heroine in a passionate kiss, and then-
The author imagines each one of these books in the hands of some woman, who reads the book, finds the single erotic moment and comes back to it, again, and again in her lonely bedroom...
And then discarded when the masturbatory impulse has been drained from the single paragraph.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Mis-matches of voice and speech patterns to the character - as in the screenplay I read in which the surly, hulking axe murderer who has escaped from prison with the "brains" of the outfit leading him looks at a tunnel and says, "Surely you don't expect that I will go into that?"


It's impressive, really, how many ways there are to do dialog badly.

Shanglan

Why could a surly, hulking axe murderer not be well-spoken? Education would not keep one from being surly and a hulking person can be as intelligent as anybody else.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Why could a surly, hulking axe murderer not be well-spoken? Education would not keep one from being surly and a hulking person can be as intelligent as anybody else.

true- but not when all his previous dialogue has been "Mongo EAT YOU!!!" up to that point...

 

[Boxlicker101]

Well, one out of three ain't bad. Batting .333 should get you into the baseball hall of fame.

Anthony Trollope (April 24, 1815 – December 6, 1882) was one of the most successful, prolific and respected English novelists of the Victorian era.

Pedantically yours,

Prof. Rumple Foreskin

Yeah, but you spelled his name "Tollop".

 

[3113]

only that it is the "open sesame" to this particular person's Ali Baba's cave (and I challenge you to find a more fabulously bizarre semi-physical metaphor this evening).

Oh! Marvelous! (Getting out my lighter and holding it high). Bravo!

 

[3113]

One of my favorite stories on Lit commits any number of errors on several levels (I have an overwhelming desire sometimes to clean it up -- I resist because it isn't mine).

I take no offence from readers pointing out real mistakes (one reader saved me from a truely embarassing one!)--of course, if it's a judgement call on a plot twist or something like that, well, then I might disagree. But spelling, punctuation, too much purple prose in a paragraph, etc.?

Have at it! I'm always looking to fine tune and polish my stories. So if you ever read one that you feel needs "cleaning up," please let me know.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Why could a surly, hulking axe murderer not be well-spoken? Education would not keep one from being surly and a hulking person can be as intelligent as anybody else.

Yes. I was attempting brevity, a skill at which I do not have a great deal of practice. I wrote "with the 'brains' of the outfit" in an attempt to convey more quickly the longer description I'd originally written explaining that he was depicted as brutal, thuggish, and not especially bright.

That said, I would also suggest that unless the character was carefully built to center around and explain the combination (which it was not), "surly," "hulking," "axe murderer," and "uses formal and somewhat antiquatedly polished diction" would indeed be an unusual grouping of characteristics.

Shanglan

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes. I was attempting brevity, a skill at which I do not have a great deal of practice. I wrote "with the 'brains' of the outfit" in an attempt to convey more quickly the longer description I'd originally written explaining that he was depicted as brutal, thuggish, and not especially bright.

That said, I would also suggest that unless the character was carefully built to center around and explain the combination (which it was not), "surly," "hulking," "axe murderer," and "uses formal and somewhat antiquatedly polished diction" would indeed be an unusual grouping of characteristics.

Shanglan

*raises hand* Terry Pratchett!

 

[BlackShanglan]

*raises hand* Terry Pratchett!

Yes. See "carefully built to center around and explain the combination" above. Mr. Pratchett is also generally writing for comic effect, something my scriptwriter was not doing, or at least not doing intentionally.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes. See "carefully built to center around and explain the combination" above. Mr. Pratchett is also generally writing for comic effect, something my scriptwriter was not doing, or at least not doing intentionally.

Oh, Shangy, I'm sorry- I'm just being silly.
And I've just pointed out another pitfall of the writer- readers who don't read carefully...

 

[impressive]

... And after the spanking, the oral sex!"

*ass tingles*