What makes poetry good?

[KillerMuffin]

I've got a few up, some are good (apparently) and some are bad. What is it that makes a poem good? Rhyme, meter, iambic pentameter, power, emotion, flow, ideals, what?

When you read a poem, how do you decide if you think it's good? If you think it's bad?

When you write a poem, what do you think of, just writing the poem and getting the words out? Or do you think of the poetic logistics? You know, the mechanics.

I have no training in poetry, I couldn't tell ya how to make a haiku, how to make a limerick, or what the hell iambic pentameter means. When I write it, it's just to throw words down without having the chains of complete sentences tying down the thoughts. Most of it is junked (most of it is junk).

Do you ever read the poetry? What do you think about it?

 

[cymbidia]

I *love* poetry. I revel in it, roll in it, slide it past my eyes, and over my tongue with complete sensual abandon.

I don't know what makes poetry good in the eyes of other people. I know what i like and respond to. I know that my attraction toward poetry is an irregularly spaced occurance. It's often mere moments, my immersion into poetry, but sometimes runs to larger, intently-felt chunks of time. Power and emotion usually strike into me with regard to me response to poetry in any form. If it makes me soar and sigh, remember and dream, weep and ache, or laugh aloud, then i normally consider it "good".


Will one of you brainics please tell me what "iambic pentameter" is? I could go look it up, i suppose, but i'm sooooo lazy today.


[Edited by cymbidia on 05-11-2001 at 12:44 PM]

 

[WriterDom]

I'll look it up for you c

Shakespeare's usual means of dramatic expression was having his characters speak in BLANK VERSE. Blank verse is lines of poetry that have the following characteristics:

They are unrhymed
They have 5 strong stresses per line
Usually—but not always—each line has 10 syllables, alternating strong and weak.
You may hear some teachers call Blank Verse "iambic pentameter," a fancy name borrowed from Greek and Latin classical verse that basically says that each line is divided up into metrical "feet"; in this case, there are 5 feet per line ("pentameter"), and each "foot" is made up of an "iamb" of two syllables, with a weak followed by a strong stress: ta-DUM. The pattern of iambic pentameter thus sounds like:

Ta-DUM ta-DUM ta-DUM ta-DUM ta-DUM


But soft, what light through yonder window breaks?

 

[Weird Harold]

What is it that makes a poem good? Rhyme, meter, iambic pentameter, power, emotion, flow, ideals, what?

When you read a poem, how do you decide if you think it's good? If you think it's bad?

I'm not a poet, or a fan of poetry. I do occasionally find a few poems I like. (Notably, the epic poems of Robert W. Service.)

For me, the poems that strike my fancy are both rhythmic and rhyming. They also have very strong imagery, and/or emotional content. Finally, they all have a consistent meter that flows well.

I've seen very few poems in "free verse" that I like.

 

[CookieMonster]

My high-school lit teacher used to say that what distinguishes "poetry" from "prose laid down all funny on the page" is that poetry is fundamentally an aural form: it's meant to be read aloud and heard. I think that's true: that's the whole point of metre and rhyme. (Some poets deliberately make visual elements an essential part of their poetry: e.e. cummings comes to mind. I can't say I'm real fond of that stuff. I expect this makes me literarily unhip, which is fine by me: when I think "great" poetry, I still think of the Old Masters: Keats, Tennyson, and the like.)

In the end, what makes a poem good is the extent to which it succeeds in evoking those feelings in me that the poet had wanted to evoke. Technical aspects of the poem -- its meter, or rhyme scheme -- can be very effective in helping this along: e.g., a meter consisting of two unstressed and a stressed syllable (an "anapest") evokes galloping horses, and might be useful in indicating hurry. But I feel that such technical details should never be obtrusive enough to be noticeable on first reading: if they are, then they're distracting me from the poem, and to that extent the poet has failed to use them effectively. By way of example, Keats's Ode to a Nightingale has a remarkably complex meter/rhyme scheme, but it's so smoothly done that one doesn't notice it until one goes looking for it.

I've tried writing poetry, and I can't say I've been satisfied with the results. I find it dauntingly difficult to do a good job of balancing the various pieces: saying what I want to say economically while staying with the meter and rhyme scheme I've chosen. I once tried to write a sonnet, and after a couple of frustrating weeks decided that I just didn't have the skills needed for it. The exercise was useful in one way, though: when I now read a Shakespeare sonnet, I have a lot more respect for it than before I'd tried to write one myself.

 

[Mickie]

Poetry is the climax of a story. It isn't the entire story, and it isn't meant to be. It's a burst of inspiration in a short time, and it should leave a lasting impression when the read is finished. I don't give a damn what kind of poetry it is. If it's good, I know it in an internal kind of way. I can't tell you what makes a poem good, unless you speak of a certain poem. The reasons are different for each one. Some, I like because of the thought behind it. Some, I like because the thought comes through in the rules and structure that the artist follows. I just like poetry that means something to me, as an individual.

Mickie

 

[cymbidia]

"She Waits..."

Thank you, WriterDom. I've long wondered, in an idle sort of way, what that term meant.

And i did a search similar to that which you did earlier today. Interesting results, once one sifts through the chaff.

 

[alexander tzara]

Two of the most important things in poetry are metaphor and originality. A bad poem is often one that just comes out straight and says exactly what it means in cliched phrases (which is what good prose should often do). Good poetry is like a mystery with many layers of meaning and emotion which you have to unravel. A good poet invents metaphors/similes that exactly suit what she's trying to say and without ever using cliched phrases or symbols.

METAPHORS
by Sylvia Plath

I'm a riddle in nine syllables,
An elephant, a ponderous house,
A melon strolling on two tendrils.
O red fruit, ivory, fine timbers!
This loaf's big with its yeasy rising.
Money's new-minted in this fat purse.
I'm a means, a stage, a cow in calf.
I've eaten a bag of green apples,
Boarded the train there's no getting off.


The rhythm and structure gives the first big clue about what she's writing about. Each line has 9 syllables and there are 9 lines. That's an immediate clue that she's referring to the 9 months of pregnancy. The metaphors are strong and used in an original way to show the anguish she feels at being pregnant - having another life growing inside her, her body changing shape. There's nothing now she can do to stop the changes that are happening to her: "Boarded the train there's no getting off".

Rhythm and structure are important, even in Free Verse (poetry that doesn't have rigid rhythms or rhyme schemes). The rhythm should always compliment the meaning. If you're writing a poem about horses galloping the words should sound like they're galloping. When you don't have rigid rhythms or rhymes in place you can use things like alliteration (rascally rabbit) and partial or half rhymes to help give rythm and structure - eg rhyming "hope" with "map" (the end of the word rhymes) or using "coat" with "hole" (the same vowel sound).

RHYTHM
Iambic pentameter is only one of the traditional poetic rhythms but it's very well known because it suits the English language so well. It was used by Shakespeare in the Blank Verse you find in most of his plays (lines of iambic pentameter which usually don't rhyme), and also because it's the standard rhythm for the Sonnet.

"Pentameter" means that there are five feet to the line, as opposed to a trimeter which has three feet or an octameter which has 8 feet.

"Iambic" comes from the type of foot, the iambus, which is 2 syllables with the stress on the second syllable:

rePORT, aMAZE etcetera

So a line of iambic pentameter:

'Tis THOUGHT the KING is DEAD. We WILL not STAY.

The other types of 2-syllable feet are

~trochee (emphasise first syllable): CAREful, WHETHer
~pyrrhic (two soft sylable together): in a, to the
~spondee (two hard syllables together): FULL FLOW, PACK HORSE

You also get 3-syllable feet, like an anapaest (2 soft syllables followed by one hard): recomMEND, up a TREE

etcetera.

SONNETS
Many people learning to write poetry start with the Sonnet, which teaches you a disciplined use of words, rhythm and structure.

The Shakespearian (or English) form of sonnet has 14 lines of iambic pentameter which follow a rigid rhyme scheme:

ABAB CDCD EFEF GG

It always ends with the rhyming couplet (2 lines of verse) which sum up the rest of the poem or make a final comment on the subject matter.

Sonnet 73
by Shakespeare

That time of year thou mayst in me behold,
When yellow leaves, or none, or few do hang.
Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
Bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.
In me thou seest the twilight of such day,
As after sunset fadeth in the West,
Which by and by black night doth take away,
Death's second self that seals up all in rest.
In me thou seest the glowing of such fire,
That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,
As the death-bed, whereon it must expire,
Consum'd with that which it was nourish'd by.
This though perceiv'st, which makes thy love more strong,
To love that well, which thou must leave ere long.

The metaphors describe the effects of aging or decay and the final couplet shows just how strong the love is even in the face of approaching death.

 

[R Nitelight]

Brevity.

 

[JUDO]

Thoughts on poetry

(Hello, my first posting here.)


I believe that poetry, even though created of similar stuff to prose, is actually much closer to music:

The rhythm coming from the accents of the words, the pace coming from the emotion conveyed, the harmony ringing in your mind from the meanings of words chosen.

Like music, the idea behind the words fills your heart or mind, depending on which target is chosen.

Funny, how so much music can be created in such a wide silence.

- Judo

 

[CreamyLady]

It is sensual, in that it appeals to the senses. We can't physically experience -- taste, feel, see, hear, smell -- what the poet does, so the poet has to symbolize those sensations for us.

I've never been one of those who requires slavery to form. A sonnet is appealing to read, but a bitch and a half to write. I admire tremendously those who can lock themselves and their words to the form, but if they have nothing to say there, I have to ask why they bothered.

Poetry is also highly subjective. The darnedest stuff can move us to tears, or make us laugh, or incite us to riot. To quantify it, to rank it, is almost impossible. Is "Invictus" a better poem than "The Cremation of Sam McGee?" Where on the scale does one put the humble limerick, compared to "My Last Duchess?"

Can we even compare Felicia Hemans, Dorothy Parker and Muriel Rukyser? Why try?

In my own opinion, it succeeds if, for a moment, I can feel what the author feels, or see what he sees. If it just lies there, a collection of words, then it fails.

 

[Laurel]

I don't know a whole lot about poetry. When a poem gets me, it's usually because I can relate to the subject matter. I'm not a fan of flowery stuff, but I like wit and real feelings. Quincy Troupe's stuff gets me, and so does Virginia Adair. Regular people writing prose about regular people situations.

"A Song" by Joseph Brodsky is my favorite poem ever. It brought tears to my eyes when I first heard him read it on a tape a friend gave me. He had this lilting, deep, sad, steady voice - there was so much emotion in the reading but it was so controlled. When I read it to myself, I hear his voice. It still puts a lump in my throat.

I wish you were here, dear,
I wish you were here.
I wish you sat on the sofa
and I sat near.
The handkerchief could be yours,
the tear could be mine, chin bound.
Though it could be, of course,
the other way around.

I wish you were here, dear,
I wish you were here.
I wish we were in my car,
and you'd shift the gear.
We'd find ourselves elsewhere,
on an unknown shore.
Or else we'd repair
to where we've been before.

I wish you were here, dear,
I wish you were here.
I wish I knew no astronomy
when stars appear,
when the moon skims the water
that sighs and shifts in its slumber.
I wish it were still a quarter
to dial your number.

I wish you were here, dear,
in this hemisphere,
as I sit on the porch
sipping a beer.
It's evening; the sun is setting,
boys shout and gulls are crying.
What's the point of forgetting
if it's followed by dying?

 

[RisiaSkye]

What is it that makes a poem good? Rhyme, meter, iambic pentameter, power, emotion, flow, ideals, what?

This is even more subjective than "what makes a story good?" because the usual markers of grammar, syntax, chronology, etc. are discarded. So there's probably NOTHING that everyone would agree is important to a poem.

When you read a poem, how do you decide if you think it's good? If you think it's bad?

Creativity and variation of language, sensory stimulus, original approaches to difficult abstract ideas or images, emotional weight, meter/rhythm, and clarity of expression all factor into my opinion. If it's emotionally powerful, but dull/repetitive/unoriginal in language, it is not as good as a poem which clearly evokes an image or emotion, which uses the possibilities of language (in meaning, rhythmn, visual patterning, etc.) to create that same emotion.

When you write a poem, what do you think of, just writing the poem and getting the words out? Or do you think of the poetic logistics? You know, the mechanics.

Even though my own poetry takes many forms (some very "traditional," some rhymning, some free, etc.), I am vewry aware of the language and the poetic conventions as I write. "Getting the words out" may give great emotional power, or some strong ideas, but it rarely creates the fullest possible expression...trying to pack much into the limited space of a short form like poetry requires (IMHO) active attention to the minutest of details and the implications of every word choice, etc.

Do you ever read the poetry? What do you think about it?

Like everything else it varies immensely. I read it actively, because I care about and enjoy poetry. On this site, I've read brilliant poems and pointless crap, and everything in between.


[Edited by RisiaSkye on 05-13-2001 at 01:44 AM]

 

[Criswell]

Just a few thing's I've learned...

(I haven't written any erotic poetry, but have done a few poems in workshops and whatnot.)

The first key is concrete imagery- you shouldn't quickly spin off into abstraction or cliche. Of course, this may be somewhat easy if you're writing erotic material- sex is by nature very concrete, sexual, etc. Avoiding cliche is harder, but do be on the lookout for new metaphors or different ways of phrasing things. If you do use a cliche, try to subvert or tweak it somehow.

There's no real form that's "best"- sometimes it can be good to work within a fixed structure, like a sonnet or even limerick, other times free verse may be the best way of expressing yourself. It's really up to you, I couldn't think of any advice to give one way or the other.

This may go without saying on a board dedicated to erotic writing, but don't censor yourself. When you're writing the first draft, just pour out the ideas and images as they come, let your muse do the talking. Later, you can refine your vision and resculpt it, looking at it rationally. But don't worry what others will think- if it looks like it works to you, then go with it.

 

[*annie*]

what makes good poetry??

well..im fairly new to this poetry writin stuff...i just posted my firsts to this site...and i can barely type let alone have formal training in the stuff...but i know what i like....i think good poetry is like any other art...beauty is in the eye of the beholder....but...
the flow...
makes it go....
the beat...
makes it heat....
it aint rhyme..
that makes the time....
its the groove..
that makes it move....
its the feel..
that makes the speel
but that's just my opinion
*annie*

 

[WickedAlchemy]

Good poetry

I apoligize I haven't read everybodies posts so i may be overlapping somebody elses ideas. Poetry doens't have to ryhme, or be in iambic pentamenter, or free verse. Alot of Poetry uses these techniques, and some poems use these techniques well. But they don't make the written word a poem.

Anything you write and call poetry, regardless of form or technique, is poetry. You'd have a hard time convincing people that Whitman's words didn't sound "prosey" or that some of Bradbury's best work in prose isn't poetic.

What i think makes a poem good, is the images it uses. Concrete, vivid. The trick is to show what you mean, not tell it. If you write in images, its poetry in my book. If you'd like some very very good "modern" poets, definetely check out Sharon Olds and Billy Collins. Olds can be dark and often erotic while Collins is a little calmer and funnier. Both write with beauty and power.

WickedAlchemy

 

[WildHoney]

I agree with most everything you all have to say about poetry. It's true, there is no correct or incorrect way to approach writing this wondrous form of thought. After all, that is what poetry is. It's thought put to words - much in the same manner as you put your thoughts into words in your short stories. I do believe, though, that poetry is a story, only a shortened version and a little piece of time during that story. Although, you will find complete stories in a 5 line verse as well as in pages of verse. I'm not one of those people who believes that poetry is meant to be read aloud, though. But, there is a correct way to read the words the poet has so carefully chosen. That is an art unto itself. If you don't read a poem correctly, either inside your head or aloud, then you can lose the whole feeling of what the poet was trying to convey.

If those words move me, make me feel, bring emotions forward that have been pushed down, or make me want to fetch a pencil and paper, then it's worked it's magic on me. A wonderful poem is a work of art, meant to have people conjure up images inside their minds, make people think, remind them of long ago, things to come, or the now.

Have a great day, all, and don't forget to smile.

WildHoney

 

[Ray Dario]

Overwhelmed

Wow guys! In six semesters of Creative Writing I didn't learn as much as I did from this thread.

Almost makes me want to try my hand at poetry. Not quite but almost. Hmm, what could a redneck Apache write poetry about anyway.

Oh yeah, back to the subject. What makes poetry good. IMHO imagery and emotion.

Ray

 

[cymbidia]

Re: Overwhelmed

Almost makes me want to try my hand at poetry. Not quite but almost. Hmm, what could a redneck Apache write poetry about anyway.

I just saw an advance of a poem Ray wrote. It's light and erotic but tender and loving, too. Apparently a redneck Apache CAN write poetry.

I'm calling your bluff on the "ah shucks, Ma'am, ah cain't write poetry" stuff. Post it, Ray. Post it.

 

[Ray Dario]

Okay cym,

Against my better judgement I submitted it. I hope everyone who reads it realizes that it was written in fun as kind of a joke.

BTW it is called "Gang Bang" and when it is approved I'll put a link to it here.

Ray

Here is the link

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=16882

 

[Make_My_Day]

Hello all! interesting discussion!

It is very hard to define, I think.. and apparantly so do most of you.. what makes poetry good.
From my point of view (I just submitted a few myself), it is a way to put emotions into words in such a way that they come out easily and make some sense... for me as well as for the reader (I hope)

As far as for reading other people's poems.. as I feel what they feel (or at least think I do) and when they arithmetically (?) guide me through the sentences.. then I find it good.

When I reach the last sentence and think: damn.. no more?! I want to hear more! Then it's good..



If you're interested:

Pain
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=16835

The impossible
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=16829

About us..
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=16831

Fear not
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=16845

Departure
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=16847

 

[Ray Dario]

KM,

See what you started? That happens when someone submits something powerful and beautiful. Everyone else says to themselves. "Hmm, I wonder if I could do that." And then all sorts of good things happen.

Thanks KM for getting us started!

Ray

 

[Cordelia]

Wow....such wonderful discussion.

I have found the best way to define poetry is "distilled language."

And I agree.....I have learned more about poetry in this thread than in all the classes I have taken.

Take it from a die-hard Shakespeare fan and a frustrated poet....writing a sonnet is VERY hard work. But I am fascinated by the idea of creativity within strict limits, and admire anyone who can do it.

By the way.....fine poem, Ray....the meter/rhyme scheme is another one of those limits I am having a hard time writing within...

 

[Tx Tall Tales]

Well I'm not a poetry writer, but I'm a big fan of two types. Humor, and for lack of a better work, Goose-bumps. Some poems just reach down into me and rip out raw emotions. Shelley's Ozymandias is a good example of the latter, the Cremation of Sam McGee of the former.

Although I haven't written poetry in 20 years, I was inspired by this thread to write a little poem I thought might find an audience here in the author's hangout. Be merciful.


* * * *

Musings

I sit before the bright lit screen,
My hearing tuned to any strange noise,
Composing my stories of girls and boys,
I work to artfully frame the scene.

Soft footsteps on the stairs above
Cause heart to race and hands to sweat,
So far I have not the courage to let
my musings be read by my true love.

What if she were to find me odd?
To find my dreams sick beyond cure?
What if she were immune to the lure
Of fantasies involving June and Todd

And Alice and Fred, and Herman and Jen
and Bill, and Bob, and the brothers Ryan?
And of leather restraints, and muffled cryin'
and first time penetrations in the end.

It's quiet upstairs, and I breathe again,
So I check my mail for some little note
of praise for a story which I wrote,
which makes endless editing worth the pain.

"Dear Texan, Your last story was really great,
The plot was solid, the story flowed well.
Jen, Mary and John, have asked me to tell
you they'd like to try it. Just set a date.

Sincerely yours, your wife upstairs in bed."
Oh my god, could it be? She's read my work!
And she likes it! No further need to lurk,
in the dark, with a heart full of dread.

And her sister Jen! and Mary and John,
Jen's roommates for a Menage a' Cinq!
and before I dash to bed I thank,
my lucky stars, for my wife Yvonne.

 

[Lexis]

poetry is a means of expression

I have studied poetry for exams and school, but I never appreciate it much until I started reading poems at my own free time. I never managed to write a poem, until one day, my heart was sooo broken that i started writing and from this sad event I managed to write three poems. They are probably not of any good, but for me they mean a lot because in them I expressed my own true feelings for a woman that I still love. I have posted one of my poems in the non-erotic section of poetry (Beyond Reality), and you can judge for yourself. However, when I am inspired to write something I don't go about rules and schemes, because I don't know how to do that, but I love them anyway 'cause I have written them to express my love and sadness.

I think that poetry is like any other art, there should be no rules, and each one should be assessed for its own goodness in meaning and expression.
Thanks,
Lexis