What is the purpose of the Discussion Circle for the authors?

[Mickie]

A point was brought about in the discussion thread for Senior Lovers. It's something that I've noticed throughout this and with other stories I've critiqued.

Just what is it that the author wants to gain from having their story discussed on the Discussion Circle forum?

Literotica consists of a wide variety of authors, from the beginner to the experienced. It's a wonderful resource for those who want to learn the craft of writing, and not just porn or erotica. However, does everyone who submits to this Circle want to learn more, or is it a way to publicize their story and gain in readership? Or is it just an attempt to get an ego stroke?

In other words, what do you, as an author, DO with the advice given out in your thread? Do you edit the story? Do you ignore the actual story or use the new knowledge in the next story?

Now, another question -- is it wrong to just want to talk about your story for no other reason than to get those ego strokes?

Let's chat about this a bit, people. It might help me to streamline this place to benefit the majority!

Mickie

 

[KillerMuffin]

As an author, I want to know why my story worked and I want to know why it didn't work. I do not want judgements passed on it. I want neither It's Great! nor It's tripe. The reader either liked it or they didn't. I want the discussor to say "I liked it because..." "I didn't like it because..." I don't expect kid gloved handling, but I do expect a modicum of courtesy and I do expect explanations that are not condescending.

Condescension, patronizing tones, and snideness have no place here. Neither does defensive attacking. All stories here are now only at author request. So, if you can't take the heat, don't put the story up.

As a participant? I want discussion. I want to talk about why a particular story worked or why it didn't work. How it could be improved or if it even needs it. I want to discuss how the story fits into the Lit genres and how it works as a story. Each story has its own unique failings. What are those failings and how can they be changed or fixed? These are things that interest me as an author and a discussor.

This is about promoting the art of writing in a constructive manner. This is NOT critiquing a story. This is NOT editing a story. We know the story has typos. We know the story has mechanical errors. There is no need to mention them unless the mechanical error is a fully consistent one that the author is unaware of or if the mechanical errors impact the way the story is received.

In short, I don't want a list of critiques. I want an actual discussion. That means interaction, not a post and run. It means reading the posts everyone else makes. And in the interest of the others reading those posts, don't rehash things already said, don't critique, and be brief. Bring up questions, answer questions previously asked. The author should not feel the need to reply to every single post made by every person on the thread with a "thanks for your..." or in defense of his or her work.

It's very simple. The answer in how to improve ones own writing lies in the mistakes of others. Critiques only point out that mistake. Discussion fosters an environment where not only the author can learn from his or her mistakes, but so can everyone else. It's about methods people use to fix what's wrong and what's not.

In some stories, like Dafney DeWit's Seven Rings, the discussion is purely content. Some stories are worth more in human nature insight than they are in writing insight. Knowing human nature is so necessary to good writing that when a story's insights into humanity is good, then it behooves us to talk about that.

I would like to talk about both things, writing and the story's humanity. But right now, we're just doing a string of critiques here. I don't even know if most of the discussors even check back after rendering their initial judgement.

 

[Mickie]

Ahem. KM, you've stated my position so succinctly that I have to chuckle. It's either that or stand and applaud so loudly that it wakes the other half (who has to work tonight, so I won't wake her )

Now, to take this and put it all into terms I can use to advantage -- should there be an addition to the rules for participation? Adequate participation for having your own story discussed is more than a single post on another person's story? Or should we just keep talking about it until someone figures out that this is fun, not a chore? Or is the general consensus that they would much rather have a list of people post critiques without all the discussion stuff involved?

More opinions, please!

And thank you KM. Seriously.

Mickie

 

[daughter]

I disagree

Killer Muffin--

I disagree. Critique is not only about pointing out mistakes. At least, that is not what I was taught. People confuse what criticism means in a literary sense with the connotations we have about it in general terms. A critique is analysis. An ideal situation is intellectual discussion coupled with critique. A good critique identifies strengths and provides text and/or explanation to substantiate an assertion. Likewise, a critique identifies flaws or areas of concern for the particular critic. A critic must also substantiate why he believes something is flawed or ask for clarification.


I realize there are different skill sets and experience here. However, ask any seasoned writer, and you will likely be told that at some point, if you are interested in writing seriously you need to take a workshop, take a class, attend a conference. In all of these, writers are expected to be prepared for frank discussion. And yes, you should have some elementary knowledge about the jargon associated with literature. Critiques are standard not the exception. And basic command of grammar and syntax is a requirement.

It would help if folks would learn a bit of the jargon for a craft they insist they are serious about. Any English teacher or librarian will show you volumes of literary criticism. These references are not about trashing an author. They're critical analysis of serious works of literature. Does anyone visit the reference section of their library anymore?

Calling someone's work tripe is not a critique. It's condemnation. I wish we would differentiate between the two.

Peace,

daughter

((writer who thinks librarians and teachers are some of the greatest people on the planet))

 

[KillerMuffin]

Actually, I don't think rules are necessary. I just don't think people really understand how to use this sort of thing. All they really know is critique.

What it takes is a good dinner hostess.

You know her, she's the woman who makes or breaks a dinner party. She's the one who makes sure everyone feels heard, the conversation is interesting, and an enjoyable discussion happens. She does it throught diplomacy, tact, aplomb, and a good instinct for finding the common thread in the participants and the discussion.

You did a magnificent job of hostessing Judo's Interruptus 4 dinner party. Can you see where the discussion happened in that thread and broke down in the senior lovers thread?

A good thread to see actual discussion is Dafney DeWit's Seven Rings thread. What's working there that isn't working elsewhere?

 

[KillerMuffin]

I know that daughter, but I'm applying the word "critique" as it's actually being used here. Not as it should be used. There is a person's review of a story, which is not actually a critique, and no discussion. If you look back through old threads, you'll see the occasional use of the phrase "Here's my critique" followed by a review. Then that's it, nothing more. The last sentence always has a final feel to it.

It's semantics right now. People don't know the jargon (which is why jargon is sometimes a bad thing) and people don't know how to utilize this tool.

 

[Mickie]

I think I need a cup of coffee. Stimulation here. Okay, KM, you're asking me to analyze what the difference is in my performance in Judo's thread and The Old Man's. The main difference is that most people disagreed with me in The Old Man's thread, and we had a pretty general consensus in Judo's. Ah. Perhaps I should never take a real stand and ask questions instead. I suppose there's a middle road to find in regard to leading a discussion -- one half asks and the other half states personal opinions.

Having never read the Seven Ring's thread, and having no clue where to look for it, I can't really compare now, can I?

Daughter -- I think what you're asking for is a balance in both discussion and critique. The ideal situation. Am I right?

about jargon -- okay, so I'll work up a post on the jargon we use here, and what's what. Simple enough. I know I even confuse the terms and say one when I mean another. It'd be helpful to the beginners, and a few of us more experienced people as well. Feel free to add your own posts to that kind of thing. The discussion tips thread is open to everyone to comment, not just me.

Mickie

 

[daughter]

Well,

KM and Mickie--

First let me say I know I sound so anal at times. I concede that everyone doesn't know the jargon. That includes me. In my mind not knowing isn't awful. For me, I invested in a few texts and asked a ton of questions. I really want to encourage folks to stretch a bit beyond their comfort zones.

On the flip side, there is nothing worse than being in a group of seasoned folk and feeling intimidated because you believe you can't contribute to the discussion. I have been there, and if you can imagine, I was silent because frankly I didn't know the terminology. I can't keep quiet so I had to ask. That is what I am suggesting here. If we use the terms correctly and more importantly apply them, I hope more folks will put down their defenses and become willing to have an ongoing, engaging discussion about what works.

Nothing frustrated me more when I tutored than a student who argued, "You just don't like it." In most cases, eventually the student accepted that I wasn't arguing his position. That what I really wanted was for him to substantiate his position.

Writing is more than saying what you think or how you feel. It's how you say it that makes folk pause and listen.

Peace,

daughter

p.s. Yes, Mickie, I want balance.

 

[KillerMuffin]

You have nailed it exactly on the head.

You will find two kinds of writers here. Dabblers and serious one. Dabblers put up fantasies for the titillation of themselves and others. It's not the writing they're interested in so much as the sex. Serious writers are into the writing. There is nothing wrong with being either a dabbler or a serious one and these are just "labels" that have been applied in the past and seem to work without really offending anyone.

There are two kinds of serious writers here. Beginning ones and seasoned ones. Most of them are beginners and have never stepped foot in a creative writing classroom. That's who you're going to see in here and where problems will happen in the discussion. Seasoned writers have learned, to an extent, how to back up from their work a little bit. Beginners still equate their work with themselves. To criticize it is to criticize them.

There are those who don't fit the generalization, of course. Beginners like me who have at least some sense of perspective when someone criticizes my story.

Anyway, I think that we should keep "jargonizing" to a minimum because it does scare people away. It makes less confident beginners shy away and think "I don't belong." Just like you pointed out, daughter, they don't understand what we're trying to say.

By the way, three definitions I think should be added to lit jargon:

Positive feedback: the good jobs and kudos.
Criticism: the constructive remarks regarding a story
Negative feedback: the You Suck! garbage.

I also think that it's not just the moderator's job to foster discussion, I think it's everyone's. The mod should have some guiding influence on it, bring it back to discussion when it goes off tangent, but he shouldn't need a whip and a chair to do it. I picture a classroom where the teacher is leading and participating in a discussion amongst the students. You see what I mean? Though by no means should we see Mickie as the teacher, but another student.

 

[daughter]

I agree

Killer Muffin--

I hear you. I'm a student and if I front like I'm not, I'm likely to get my feelings hurt.

Good points. So read anything good lately?

Peace,

daughter

 

[KillerMuffin]

Sure! Ever read DeWit's Seven Rings? Here's the link to the discussion thread about it. http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29458

It's a hella good story. A hella good discussion, too.

Hey, Mick, getting any good feedback here? I'm hoping more people will weigh in.

 

[Mickie]

Keep posting! I'm learning here -- Gotta run get the kids from school in a few so I won't be back up until tonight late or tomorrow sometime (unless the impossible happens and my daughter doesn't need help with homework ). But please keep talking about this. I'll catch up with you later and see if I can't learn even more!


Mick

 

[KillerMuffin]

I think Laurel should put a link to this board on the author's resources page along with a short introductory guideline on how to use it.

 

[Mickie]

I like that idea, KM. I'll pm Laurel and see what she thinks. If she has time, that is. That woman is over-worked and underpaid!

I think the general idea here is that we all want to have discussions that go beyond the grammatical and basic concerns of story building. We don't want to get hugely technical because most of the people here aren't professional writers who know a lot more about it than the very basics. However, we can get into the ethics of a story, or the general themes, or even some of the basics of writing -- character, setting, etc.

My job, as moderator, is to make sure the discussion doesn't get bogged down in picky details. If I find an angle to use in the discussion this helps. Ask a lot of questions, then offer my own opinion (cause I can't help but add my own opinion )

The job of the story's author is to post a lot of questions of their own, to provide us with information about where the author's mind was at when they wrote the story, and what kinds of things they tried to put into the story.

The job of the discussors is to both offer opinions, and to ask more questions.

Since we're dealing with a lot of writing problems, we do want to mention if they detract from the enjoyment, but we really want to get into some other points of the stories.

Is this all on the right track?

Now, I have another question -- what kind of meaningful discussion can we have if the general consensus is the story isn't good at all? Can we learn from it, anyway? Or should we all just tell the writer not to quit their day job? I have an opinion on this, but I'm going to wait and see if anyone else wants to state theirs.

Mickie

 

[daughter]

Mickie--

If the story isn't good at all, you first ask the author if he is interested in learning some basic mechanics of writing. If yes, proceed with a series of questions, addressing major elements in workable chunks.

Questions would include things like: What is the message you want to convey? What is the approach you'd like to take? Have you consider doing a,b, c?

Next draft should be posted in editorial forum to work one on one with an editor. When a decent draft is completed, post on site and request feedback in the discussion thread.

I'm sure this isn't completely fleshed out, but I think you can see where I'm going with this.

Also, I'd strongly recommend some writing aids. Is there a current list on this site? If you're serious about writing you need a few things:

a couple of good dictionaries, preferrably at least one unabridged.
A thesarus, online is fine.
A writing manual. I majored in English(no wisecracks about what good it did me) so I prefer the MLA.
Several mentors swear by Strunk and White's" The Elements of Style
and just for fun, here's a site for getting names for characters:

http://www.kabalarians.com/gkh/your.htm#links

Peace,

daughter

 

[Mickie]

Good ideas, all of them, daughter. However, that would require a LOT more time from me. Half the time -- sighs -- MOST of the time, I don't have the time to read through the stories up for discussion until the rest of you do. I'm busy setting up that the week works with the author's schedule. Sometimes, I don't hear from them until the day before.

Plus, what critieria would I use to decide a story is ready for posting on the Discussion Circle? What if the story is GREAT for discussion purposes, but the grammar sucks? What if the writing is good, but the story doesn't have any real point? I'm not really prepared to play god here. There are too many variables.

I've never come across a story I really couldn't understand because of technical stuff that an author nominated here. (But they are out there. )

Resources might be a good idea. I have a few links. How about a sticky thread here that lists links to places like a thesaurus, a dictionary, and even Struck's work on grammar? We can't force writers to use them, but we can provide an easier link when they want to use them. If a writer discovers a good one, then they can add that to the thread. It could be pretty comprehensive, and helpful.

As for editors -- I don't know about other people, but I'm seeing a definite trend in the volunteer editors that I don't think I like. A lot of threads have been posted on the editing forum that people can't get a response from the volunteers. It's a pain when you tout up the program, only to find out that the author in question emailed a dozen editors and got no response. In frustration, they post the story as-is.

The only way I can see your suggestion working is if we rule that a story MUST have been edited prior to being discussed by a volunteer editor. That would knock my own work out of the running. I edit myself.

I'd be willing to put that rule into effect if it's the will of the general majority of nominated authors. (I STILL don't like the word 'nominated'. When I get through the first nomination thread, I'm going to change it to 'request for discussion'.)

Mickie

 

[Mickie]

Guided author criticism of specific stories. That's the statement beneath the forum title on the board. Is it accurate, or should we have that changed? This is what a newbie sees as a description of this forum.

Mick

 

[daughter]

Plus, what critieria would I use to decide a story is ready for posting on the Discussion Circle? What if the story is GREAT for discussion purposes, but the grammar sucks? What if the writing is good, but the story doesn't have any real point? I'm not really prepared to play god here. There are too many variables.

***Mickie, one person can't do it alone. You don't have to make the decision. Put the responsibility on the author. Let him find someone to edit his draft. The copy doesn't have to be perfect. It need only demonstrate that he has done some work before re-posting. That's not hard to recognize.


Resources might be a good idea. I have a few links. How about a sticky thread here that lists links to places like a thesaurus, a dictionary, and even Struck's work on grammar? We can't force writers to use them, but we can provide an easier link when they want to use them. If a writer discovers a good one, then they can add that to the thread. It could be pretty comprehensive, and helpful.

As for editors -- I don't know about other people, but I'm seeing a definite trend in the volunteer editors that I don't think I like. A lot of threads have been posted on the editing forum that people can't get a response from the volunteers. It's a pain when you tout up the program, only to find out that the author in question emailed a dozen editors and got no response. In frustration, they post the story as-is.

****Again. We all establish connections. Instead of requesting help from some anonymous source, I would recommend a writer seek the help of someone who has some interest in the writer's growth. I have been here less than 2 weeks, and I have met folks who are willing to take time reading and commenting on my work. It's called reciprocity. A novice may feel they have little to offer, but I'll argue that regardless of her skill set, she can read and respond. Volunteer to tell another writer what you liked or disliked in a work. Don't need any expertise to do that.

The only way I can see your suggestion working is if we rule that a story MUST have been edited prior to being discussed by a volunteer editor. That would knock my own work out of the running. I edit myself.

****Let's modify that criteria. The only criteria is that a draft coming back for discussion clearly shows some effort on the part of the writer. I don't care who edits it. Preferrably someone with greater skill, but if not, hopefully with the initial feedback, the writer can make some changes on his own.

Mickie, I don't know about your personal experience, but I belong to a large listserve. I know this can work because I'm apart of group that does it. We have over 400 members with varying skill sets. The amount of feedback varies, but almost always someone will comment to your story. If you're a newbie, and you express you want help, you get it. We make sure the newbie gets attention. All we ask in return is that she commit to giving feedback to others.

Easiest way to get feedback is to give it. Participate. When people connect, they're more than happy to mentor.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Mickie]

Good enough, but who makes the judgement call that a story would be unworthy to post up for discussion? Who says that the writer didn't do their work to our standards?

Mick

 

[daughter]

Mickie--

I don't recall saying that someone should judge if a story should go up for discussion. My points address after a story has come through a discussion once. We don't know if a story is poorly written until we have read it. Writers should be allowed to submit any story to this forum.

You've lost me on that one. How can a writer improve if we don't discuss his work?

When I was in school, you submitted every work twice. The first was your best draft(this means until you've written and revised as best you could) not your first effort. The second submission was your revision after it went through workshop.

Many don't opt for the second round, but I think for those who have major areas to address, they should taken advantage of the opportunity. I don't forsee anyone posting a revision that requires simple clean up.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Mickie]

So you're saying that all of this is to come after the story is discussed. True enough. It would be nice if the author took the discussion to heart and actually changed their work to better it. However, most people won't. I've learned that most amatuer writers prefer to stay amateur. The common reaction to asking them to edit their work is for them to act insulted and insist that they wrote it for fun. That's the difference between someone who is a serious writer and someone who considers writing to be a hobby. The majority of writers here are in the latter category.

I've fought this problem with a person who wanted to co-author a story with me. Believe me, changing their perception of writing is a futile and heart-breaking effort. I keep saying things like -- but it doesn't say what I want it to say. I keep hearing -- it's good. Keep going.

The biggest problem is that the general public doesn't realize how much real work goes into writing. Someone without a background in it pens a quick story, thinks an editor will fix all the problems, and happily passes it out to their friends, who rave about its wonderful qualities so they don't hurt feelings. That same person posts it on Lit, gets great feedback from other people who don't know a comma from a hole in the ground, and think they've got a winner here. It's all for fun, right? Who cares if I didn't put a capital letter in front of that sentence; they know what I mean. It's that lackadaisical attitude that makes a lot of the stories posted here so frustrating. But you can't change it.

The choice is to either ignore it or work around it, meanwhile sending out hints and soft reminders that their writing needs some work. Blugeoning them with their faults is a sure way to cause a problem with those that claim they have a day job and don't have the time to look at every word they write. If this was a pay site, you'd bet people submitting would want to know how to improve their work. They'd get more money if they did. But here? They submit to get warm fuzzies, claiming they write for fun only.

Um. That took on the category of a rant, didn't it. Well. Sorry, but I'm gonna post it anyway. It contains a point that I've had to drop due to its inflamitory effect on more than one person. But it's my honest opinion.

Mickie

 

[daughter]

Rant on brotha

The common reaction to asking them to edit their work is for them to act insulted and insist that they wrote it for fun. That's the difference between someone who is a serious writer and someone who considers writing to be a hobby. The majority of writers here are in the latter category.

Trudat

The biggest problem is that the general public doesn't realize how much real work goes into writing. Someone without a background in it pens a quick story, thinks an editor will fix all the problems, and happily passes it out to their friends, who rave about its wonderful qualities so they don't hurt feelings. That same person posts it on Lit, gets great feedback from other people who don't know a comma from a hole in the ground, and think they've got a winner here. It's all for fun, right? Who cares if I didn't put a capital letter in front of that sentence; they know what I mean. It's that lackadaisical attitude that makes a lot of the stories posted here so frustrating. But you can't change it.

Preach, brotha. Amen comin' from the choir. Writing is work. Most folks are not interested. And they're real bent with you for having the nerve to take writing seriously. The nerve of you, Mickie.

The choice is to either ignore it or work around it, meanwhile sending out hints and soft reminders that their writing needs some work. Blugeoning them with their faults is a sure way to cause a problem with those that claim they have a day job and don't have the time to look at every word they write. If this was a pay site, you'd bet people submitting would want to know how to improve their work. They'd get more money if they did. But here? They submit to get warm fuzzies, claiming they write for fun only.

Well, I do read for entertainment. However, lazy writing is not fun. Who wants to eat a half-baked cake?

I think I'm a better editor than writer. At least some think so. When I get poor copy, I pitch it. Sorry, but there are simply too many submissions to be wiggin' over somebody's work who doesn't even hit spellcheck. I am the worst speller I know. When I submit something for publication, I run it by a mentor and an editor. My support group doesn't sugar-coat, and that's what I need. An editor doesn't give a crap about my feelings. He wants to know if I can write. It's really that simple. And when you're an editor, you reputation is on the line. My job is to identify solid copy worth reading.


Um. That took on the category of a rant, didn't it. Well. Sorry, but I'm gonna post it anyway. It contains a point that I've had to drop due to its inflamitory effect on more than one person. But it's my honest opinion.

RANT ON, BABE!!!

Peace,

daughter

 

[Mickie]

Ahhhh, rants are wonderful, I know, but they rarely solve any real problems. The question before me right now is -- what kind of changes will help the writers and the discussors enjoy the discussions more? My own attitude is going to be fine tuned, as a moderator or *grimace* hostess. Is there anything else I can do? Or am I beating a dead and buried horse here?

Mickie

 

[daughter]

things run more smoothly

Mickie--

Let me think some on it. I think things are more complicated than they need be. Folks who aren't serious, don't participate a whole lot in the discussions. One thing I would require is an explanation of what the author wants before we invest time discussing it. When you put your name in the hat say what you want to discuss including clearly identifying at least two flaws you know have in your writing.

And you must participate in at least 2 discussions before yours will be considered. And this requirement is everytime you want a focused discussion. This should deter a good number of attention seekers. This is standard on many boards. In fact, many places have critical forums where you don't have to wait to be spotlighted, but you are required to comment before others will comment to your work.

When I came here, I posted on everything I read where I saw merit. That is what I expected from a writers' forum. It's not about being the most popular with the highest votes or reads. It's writing a solid draft, sharing it with your peers and publicly having it evaluated. Literotica was a very different slant for me.

Don't be discouraged. Be careful not to burn out. I've done the moderating gig. It's a thankless job. Keep it in perspective.

Peace,

daughter

 

[letsallgetlaid]

Is this a private party or can anyone weigh in?

Ok so I'm new...Is it ok that I still have LOTS to say?
I think that critizism is both positive and negative. If you say this sucks, this sucks, this sucks, you won't really get anywhere. You need to say this sucks, try it this way, like you did here where it really works well.
Etc....