What is "Pain"?

[cymbidia]

"Ultimately, the purpose of a flogging is to inflict pleasure."
-- Mitch Kessler



According to dictionary.com, pain is "an unpleasant sensation occurring in varying degrees of severity as a consequence of injury, disease, or emotional disorder."

To us in the BDSM world, however, the word id filled with so much more. To us, "pain" is a tool we use in our relationships, or that which we avoid like it's... well... painful. It's a way we learn to move past barriers in our minds, a thing we call "pushing limits", or it's a technique we avoid using altogether. It's a goal and a need, or it is a thing of fear and revulsion.

A well-known Leatherman, Joseph Bean, wrote that "Pain is the weed-word of sensation". By that, he meant that as soon as the word "pain" comes into the equation, whether it be here, like this, among people just talking about the concept, or in session when limits begin to be pushed in terms of physical tolerance in order to find the way to closer and more tightly bound togetherness for both involved, or in a variety of other ways, people react like they react to a big ugly weed in the middle of a carefully tended garden.

I, like so many, don't equate the word and concept "pain" with my sexuality. I don't use the word "pain" to describe my BDSM sexuality or any part of what i do within my BDSM relationships.

For me, it's all "sensation". I am a masosub. I've always been sub, and almost always been a masochist besides that. Atop it all is a wide and deep streak of inherent sensualism. I think of erotic "pain" as sensation on a continuum. The brush of a fingertip on the back of my hand is at one end of the continuum and the worst caning, the slicing of my skin with a scalpel, something in that arena, is at the other end of the continuum. Between those two extremes, and *very* dependant on my Dom, is where i find my pleasure.

Sensation is a word we all use without fear.
Pain is a word that puts us on alert and it's not a fair word to use when describing our sexual preferences, either, but one that lurid newspapers and trash TV stories continue to blare and trumpet out at us all, thereby instilling further in the minds of the many that those of us who need this kind of sexuality are abnormal freaks.

Sensation.
That's a word of respect, and it disallows preconceived definitions, too. Instead, it invites the fact that for each of us, "sensation" is something different and, dare i suggest it?, even pleasurable.

With the word "sensation" we cannot be the pain-loving freaks of a moment ago, can we? We cannot be so scary, so hideous, and so ready to snatch up unwilling folks and subject them to devilish torments?

The word "sensation" allows us the dignity we deserve as normal, ordinary, tax-paying citizens who might just happen to like a little more intense stimulation and sensation in our sexual lives than our next-door neighbors.

I hate the word "pain" in the context of power exchange relationships. It's one of my hot buttons. Pardon me the rant, please, but i keep seeing it here, mostly from the mouths of those who are a little newer to the idea of all... this ... that we're discussing in this place.

In terms of BDSM, i beg you to think of "pain" as an advanced concept and "sensation" as that which you begin to investigate as you travel the beginning part of your road into understanding your needs in this arena. Wipe "pain", with all its negative connotations, from you mind. It is too much for now. Replace it with the world of delightfully learning about your reactions to different and varied "sensations".

[/rant]

 

[geri]

*stands and gives Cym a standing ovation*

here! here! very well put! thank you for saying it so elequently. i do like the concept of 'intense sensation' instead of 'pain'.

 

[MissTaken]

As I posted toward the end of the mega thread, BDSM isn't about pain.

It isn't really pain.

I don't like pain. I hate the dentist. I wouldn't go break my leg to get off, nor would I hit my thumb with a hammer to mastubate.


Noooo BDSM isn't pain or about pain.

I, being new, have often referred to it as pain/pleasure.

For me, something seen as painful , but taking place within the context of BDSM is absolute pleasure. The "painful sting" of a well wrought spanking, actually tickles and tingles and does all sorts of wonderful things to my body and mind.

 

[truthpurveyor]

Well Said

Eloquent and excellent words, Cym! It is a sensation that further helps me reach my "peak" as well. A sharp set of nails in the tender flesh of my lower back as I embrace my pet in love is just the medicine for taking me over it.

I applaud your words here, and the obvious efforts and results you've given us all with a seperate board in which we may consider our fellow writers thoughts and ideas in an open forum!

Thank You!

 

[mskittykatt]

For me, it's all "sensation". I am a masosub. I've always been sub, and almost always been a masochist besides that. Atop it all is a wide and deep streak of inherent sensualism. I think of erotic "pain" as sensation on a continuum. The brush of a fingertip on the back of my hand is at one end of the continuum and the worst caning, the slicing of my skin with a scalpel, something in that arena, is at the other end of the continuum. Between those two extremes, and *very* dependant on my Dom, is where i find my pleasure.

i never have really thought of myself as a masochist so much until i met with resistance in my current relationship... but i guess it does describe me. the only time i think of "pain" is when i'm told no, or something special is withheld from me as a direct result of my actions. but i do see where my language, to someone who doens't understand things would sound rather confusing!! thanks for the reminder Cym.

 

[SpectreT]

Amateur Semantician, Grammarian....

and, er, "pain" in the ass, SpectreT, here, with my own personal take on this interesting weakness of our language.

Pain is, in my mind, the interaction between our minds, and the warning signals our tactile neurons send to our brains. One is either psychologically prepared to accept such signals, or not.

I don't mean "bracing for the swat" (or puncture, or cut, or....), I mean we're either in a mental state where such signals are a welcome sensation, an erotic surge, or we're in a mental state where our reactions rule us, where the endorphin surge is laced with fear of real damage, and norepenephrine (commonly known as adrenaline) floods our systems, making it even tougher to re-assign the signal.

In other words:

As MissT said, "I wouldn't hit my thumb with a hammer to masturbate."

 

[HotXBunz]

Cymbidia said:

Sensation.
That's a word of respect, and it disallows preconceived definitions, too. Instead, it invites the fact that for each of us, "sensation" is something different and, dare i suggest it?, even pleasurable.

With the word "sensation" we cannot be the pain-loving freaks of a moment ago, can we? We cannot be so scary, so hideous, and so ready to snatch up unwilling folks and subject them to devilish torments?

The word "sensation" allows us the dignity we deserve as normal, ordinary, tax-paying citizens who might just happen to like a little more intense stimulation and sensation in our sexual lives than our next-door neighbors.

I hate the word "pain" in the context of power exchange relationships. It's one of my hot buttons. Pardon me the rant, please, but i keep seeing it here, mostly from the mouths of those who are a little newer to the idea of all... this ... that we're discussing in this place.

In terms of BDSM, i beg you to think of "pain" as an advanced concept and "sensation" as that which you begin to investigate as you travel the beginning part of your road into understanding your needs in this arena. Wipe "pain", with all its negative connotations, from you mind. It is too much for now. Replace it with the world of delightfully learning about your reactions to different and varied "sensations".
.......................................

As some of you know by now I posted a passionate PM to Cymbidia regarding this thread and her opinions therein. I think I am ready to share my thoughts and opinions on this topic. I do not want folks to think I am attacking Cymbidia as a person - I am merely expressing my very very strong thoughts and opinions on this topic. This is a rebuttal of sorts.

My issues origin: I miss the comfort of the mega thread. There I had the feeling of having a safe space where people in the lifestyle and those seeking answers to questions could come and relax and be themselves. The "tourists" (those who peek in to see what the freaks are doing) were on our turf and we didn't need to worry about mincing words, semantics or what John Q Pubic thought about what we called what it is we do.

Here, in this forum, I have someone I respect asking me to consider another way of expressing my experience because of what others may think. I was not a happy camper. I do not want to have to be careful of how I express myself beyond the general respect I feel for each and everyone of the people here who are looking for answers. I have to be PC in every aspect of my life and I thought I had found a place on Lit where I could put that aside. Now I'm not so sure.

Then I read that "pain" is an advanced concept. Grrrrr! So, now I have gone from feeling like I lost my safe space, to being strongly asked to clean it up for the tourists, to being told that "pain" is an "advanced concept" only some people in the forum experience.

My reasonable self (I have a few voices I check in with upon occasion) tells me it is no big deal. My passionate self tells me I have every right in the world to call what I do "pain". It hurts, it is very real pain to me and I LOVE IT! The tabloids and tourists be damned!

My reasonable self tells me to put myself in Cymbidia's shoes, and try to see things from where she is coming from. I understand the battle of trying to get an alternative lifestyle recognized, respected and accepted by the mainstream population. I am a lesbian, I get it. I fight this battle daily. My passionate self does not like the idea of tip toeing around for the sake of not being offensive to people who do not understand what we are all about. If political reform is the purpose of this forum I will respect that but for me it will definitely dilute my experience. Like I said, I miss the preceived safety of the mega thread.

The last thing I had issue with was the statement regarding pain as an "advanced concept". I felt a division being made here; the newbies experience "sensation" and the advanced players experience "pain". As this may well be true, as I accept there are degrees, I have issues with someone trying to define another person's experience or the implication of inequality. For me, that went beyond the semantics debate. I was into fisting, which was defined as an advanced activity on another thread, well before I ever had my first pinch.

Seeing as how I interpreted the consensus on the "equality thread" to be that this should have been a public disclosure I figured I may as well bite the bullet and share all of this. Am I comfortable with it? NO! But I figure I can't very well have an opinion about the tone of the forum if I don't speak up and say something.

Sorry this was so long. I am putting on my absestos body suit and bracing myself for the fall out.

I think I just need some chocolate or a good flogging to clear my head. I'll surly lighten up then. I think all of the politics in my life gets to me at times. I really want a place where I don't have to play those games. Maybe I dream.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Words and definitions belong to no one & everyone.

Like everything, pain means what you think it means.

Don't try to limit others' words and definitions; instead, why not share your own and start a conversation?

This is a lesson we can all stand to learn, I think.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Labels, labels who needs labels?

Words and definitions belong to no one & everyone.

Like everything, pain means what you think it means.

Don't try to limit others' words and definitions; instead, why not share your own and start a conversation?

This is a lesson we can all stand to learn, I think.

I couldn't agree with you more...

One person's pain is another person's sensation. We know that is true cause, everyone has a different tolerance for it.

Why can;t we discuss, share and expand our knowledge?

The more we define, label and limit each other's experiences the more we limit our own.

Ebony

 

[HotXBunz]

Ah, brievity. I am laughing at myself. It took ya'll such few lines to say what it took me paragraphs to try to express.

 

[cymbidia]

And you're all so right, too.


I get lost in trying to help people who are new to an appreciation of this kinda sexuality past thier fears. One of the biggest is, of course, that widely-held stereotype about half of us whipping the crap (literally) out of the other half of us and leaving horrendous scars and lash marks forever after.

It's utter hogwash, as we all know, but some people come here and to places like this driven by the unquenchable need to know, to learn, to find out... and they come trailing thier fears and apprehensions like little forlorn blankies.

They open a post and see only the word PAIN. Red screaming firey horrendous scary PAIN... and they go away again, all thier preconceptions solidified.

The above is exaggerated, of course, but talk of "pain" scares newbies, and that's something i'm not sure any of us can deny. However, i blew it in my admittedly befuddled attempt (above) to be reassuring to those who might need such reassurance.

Pain is a part of what we do. Not all of us. There are those who don't want anything to do with pain, giving or recieving. For most of us, though, we play with pain. To us, by us, pain is red, screaming, welcome sensation. To us, by both parties, it's needed, wanted, and desired. But it's pain, no doubt about it. Inflicting and/or accepting pain is part of what most of us do on a regular basis within the confines of our sexual relationship(s).

Sorry, guys.
I blew it.
Thanks for calling me on it.

 

[Ebonyfire]

I think you do well

Ah, brievity. I am laughing at myself. It took ya'll such few lines to say what it took me paragraphs to try to express.

Hey, I think you did well. I am very lazy and hate to type so much! <smiling>

Ebony

 

[lillum]

BUMP!




As I read this I was remembering back when I fully released to the pain and it became sensation play it was like a new beginning.I fully submitted to him.
One little word can make such a difference in the way I concived things to be.

I hope someone likes this bump it did tickle my brain.

lillum

 

[Pure]

this sorta reminds me of natural childbirth folks who refuse to use the word 'pain' and talk of 'discomfort'. but certainly the 'mental set' is one key.

 

[thegreenfairy]

I hate the word "pain" in the context of power exchange relationships.
[/rant]

but without the word pain, how could there be painsluts?

 

[lillum]

Re: Re: What is "Pain"?

but without the word pain, how could there be painsluts?

I am a sensation seeker.I do'nt feel pain as maybe you do. I enjoy as the sharps,stingy,thuddy,whippy feeling as well as all the emotional sensations as well. I do'nt know maybe it is a mind thing as pure says.


lillum

 

[Quint]

I'd say there is welcome pain and unwelcome pain, for me, but I'd also say that the determining factor is more the intention behind it than the nature of it. If I bonk my nose on my hand, it hurts. If he slaps me, it hurts. It's all pain to me. I don't like it. My body doesn't say "hey, this is a good idea. Why don't we get some more of this?" It really is hard to explain why I do it, except that the difficulty and displeasure really makes it more satisfying on some level.

But I wouldn't call it sensation. I'm not concerned with PC, but more importantly, I know what feels good on a physical level and that ain't it.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Pain is a knuckle punch to the kidneys...hold still!

 

[Netzach]

Hm.

Slightly out of practise masochistic-as-well-as-Sado Boss Lady here.

Being exhorted to call the sensation of needles threading though my skin "sensation" instead of "pain" robs me of something.

Being told that the cane that almost broke me open to bleeding was sensation and not pain, feels like an invalidation of my experience of that, hating it and enduring it for the sheer challenge, for the chance to tap into something bigger than just me and my little comfort zones.

Maybe I'm cheated of the chance to feel tough. Maybe that's why I don't like it, I grew up with no opportunity to feel tough, and I finally found one.

Maybe it's because I don't give two flying figs what the suburban sheep people are more at ease with, even if they do make a lot of rules, I can't bring myself to pander to them more than the bare minimum, and when talking SM we're on MY turf, not theirs.

God forbid that's not the case.

 

[James G 5]

I agree that there is "sensation" and then there is "pain"
I would disagree that a sadist/masochist combo really works with "sesation"
Yes, for the most part what I do in a scene doesn't "hurt" per se and I strive to put my subjects in an altered mental/physical state where it doesn't "hurt"...FOR THE MOST PART
BUT
I am a SADIST. That means I get part of my thrill out of hurting. And I play with masochsist, who get a thrill out of BEING hurt.
When I play with non masochists, I limit this, obviously, or it would be abusive.
But when I play with masochists...

As an example, my friend Flaminhart is a lovely swtich who bottoms for a very select few folks and is really only submissive with me. She has a masochistic side she keeps pretty well buried, except when she plays with me or her husband. (before anyone comments, they have an open relationship, I knew her before her hubby, and now that they're married he & I scene her in tandem, so no smart remarks )
The last time we scened, she wanted to work thru her fear of canes, so we laid her out on a bench, warmed her up with knives & floggers, and then her husband held her head up & put a knife to her throat (strictly for distraction, she was tied down pretty tightyl, so it wasn't to hold her still) while I took paired canes to her ass. She was crying out with every strike, and it was NOT sensation (as the floggers had been). She felt every bit of it, it hurt, and it still stung the next day. She positively loved it, and got past a lot of her fear of canes.

This is just one example...But there ARE plenty of times in both play and other areas of BDSM involving discipline, gestures of ownership, and various other acts where pain IS pain and is intended that way either as a pointed demonstration of or reminder of place and power, or because one or both parties involves LIKES the pain.

I don't know anyone, even my maso friends, who likes stubbing their toes or hitting themselves with hammers, but saying they process all "good" pain as "sensation" and "bad pain" as, well, "bad pain" is a base cannard. It's more about the mental and emotional way in which they deal with the "bad pain".

Someone mentioned childbirth. Women I know who have done it naturally said it hurts like HELL and anyone who says there's some sort of mental "switch" to make it non-pain are lying in order to get other women to go thru it...BUT, they also say there was VALUE in the pain and experience.
One other example in contect of a BDSM situation is a Master who punishes a slave for something. There's play and then there's PUNISHMENT. Punishment SHOULD hurt, it's meant to teach a lesson: "Don't do this again, or else". There're ways to hurt that even a masochist doesn't enjoy. But, in a non-abusive situation, there is VALUE in the pain, as the dominant is trying to help the sub learn & grow.

Ok, I've gone on about htis long enough for now I think

Next?

 

[ownedsubgal]

I'd say there is welcome pain and unwelcome pain, for me, but I'd also say that the determining factor is more the intention behind it than the nature of it. If I bonk my nose on my hand, it hurts. If he slaps me, it hurts. It's all pain to me. I don't like it. My body doesn't say "hey, this is a good idea. Why don't we get some more of this?" It really is hard to explain why I do it, except that the difficulty and displeasure really makes it more satisfying on some level.

But I wouldn't call it sensation. I'm not concerned with PC, but more importantly, I know what feels good on a physical level and that ain't it.

ditto. i've never been a pain slut. i need it and crave it like few i've seen before...but it's hardly pleasurable for me. it's a struggle for me just to take a single lash of his belt...tears are pouring from my eyes and my nose is running after a handful of firm whacks with the stiff paddle. no, this is definitely not what i'd call "sensation"...it is purely pain. for me the need is in the suffering...i need to feel the suffering and agony that physical pain causes, while perhaps a pain slut needs to feel the pleasure they get from it.

i have always wondered, if a true Sadist, and a true masochist, are really meant for each other? as a Sadist gets pleasure from inflicting pain...wouldn't it be a bit disappointing to inflict pain upon someone which in turn caused that person immense physical pleasure? my Master's previous slave was very much a pain maso. she could bear a great deal of physical pain. i know that he beat her far more severely and far more frequently than he has ever beaten me, and i asked him once, doesn't he miss that? doesn't he hate being with such a wuss? and he explained to me that it was really bothersome for him to have to beat the former slave as harshly as he did...since he did not want her to feel any pleasure from pain, he would have to go far above and beyond and often beat her as he would beat a man, even, just so that she wouldn't have an orgasm in the process, or be begging for more. He likes that he can exert much less energy and effort into beating me (and greatly decrease the risk of causing me major bodily harm, which was a concern of his with the previous slave), because i can be hurt so easily, and he knows there will be no pleasure.

 

[Quint]

T sounds very much like your Master in that respect, osg. I asked him the same question, because I know he is capable of using so much more of his strength than he does with me and I felt guilty, like I was holding him back. His answer was much like yours---he wants to hurt me. Whether that be after one stroke or one hundred, I'm hurt. It's then his decision if he wants to stop at one or go the next ninety-nine. As long as I continue to take it, he gets exactly what he wants.

I've wondered about the sadism/masochism duality as well. No definitive answer, but I'm used to that.

 

[Netzach]

Speaking to that, I enjoy the gestures of infliction quite a bit, so I like to play with a pain-moderate bottom.

I like there to be a process and a trajectory to getting someone to that point.

(the point being, this sucks, but I'll do it, how did I get myself into this, ow....fuck you, I adore you....)

So five paddle whacks would frustrate me, possibly, but knowing that there's always one toy in the bag that will make them grit their teeth and whine when they present their ass, does me a world of good.

A heavy bottomless supermasochist is a great teacher and a good time, in my experience, but my limits will probably never rise to meet theirs. There's only so much blood that I can stand.

That's just my taste.

 

[Pure]

While Cym is/was very articulate, there are problems with her analysis, as has been said. One of course is just the PC packaging, just like Lamaze folks won't say 'pain' in childbirth.

For me, it's all "sensation". I am a masosub. I've always been sub, and almost always been a masochist besides that. Atop it all is a wide and deep streak of inherent sensualism. I think of erotic "pain" as sensation on a continuum. The brush of a fingertip on the back of my hand is at one end of the continuum and the worst caning, the slicing of my skin with a scalpel, something in that arena, is at the other end of the continuum. Between those two extremes, and *very* dependant on my Dom, is where i find my pleasure.

There are weaker and stronger sensations, as in the touch and the whack of a cane.

She ignores qualitative issues, however. Consider, not the fingertip on the back of the hand, and the caning, but having boiling water pour over the back of your hand. THAT's pain.

Certain pains to the skin, and to say nipples, anus, etc have erotic potential. Others seem not to. (Remember the movie about a club of 'perverts' who wanted to stage and be in car wrecks and possibly by maimed?

Also, despite the problems in what she says, she has a point.
There is a mental element. Under hypnosis the blow of the cane might be felt differently, say as warmth.

Oh, another element around pain, not mentioned, is *fear*. Fear makes it worse, and yet the *fear before the cane strikes can be very erotic. Even with oneself, there is *fear before sticking a needle into a delicate area. Fear is the great effector of *Arousal, not necessarily erotic, but it seems that many here *have made general arousal into erotica arousal.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

hmmm

Until this thread, i never really thought about what i consider painful. Most things that are intended to hurt (a punch, a kick, a slap, a cane) only really cause me pain when there is ANGER behind it. Not saying i don't feel like it's painful, but it is a pleasurable pain that i drown in. I lose myself in each lash, each stroke, each hurt.

As with everything else, it's all about intent. (at least to me). I expect that any Sadist who gets me will push me and pull me and torture me (YUMMY) BUT that is not completely painful to ME, thus i would consider it *sensation play*. However, a man or woman, hurting me because they are mad...whether it is a punch or foul words, THAT is painful.

The point is (yes, everyone i do have a point) is that everyone's idea of pain is different. What works for me, probably won't get the same response from someone else. And isn't that the main reason we explore this lifestyle, anyway? To see how far, how much and WHERE we can go to next...Pleasurable or PAINFUL?

just sign me the maso-switch that could...
PET

PS I thought of something else that is PAINFUL to me...TICKLING...i hate it, it hurts...even whilst i am laughing hysterically and trying NOT to pee...