What is Cheating?

[redpaint]

What constitue Cheating in a realtionship?

I have two friends that are going through some hard times in their marriage. She is accuseing him of cheating. For now I wont say what he did or didn't do for her to clame he cheated on her. I do belive there are a couple of other things that has helped to breing this marriage to this point, But more on that later.

So what would your spouse have to do for you to say they had cheated on you? It does not have to be your spouse if your not married.

 

[Recidiva]

Being together means agreement and compromise.

This is one of those "ground rules" that needs to be worked out before anything happens.

After is too late. Unless both people take responsibility for not establishing ground rules, and then do so reasonably, make up any damage done and abide by those agreements from that point on.

So it doesn't matter what to me constitutes cheating, if my husband doesn't agree. And if we can't agree, we probably can't agree on much, don't respect each other's preferences and would be better off not attempting to rely on each other.

In our case, my husband and I have hashed out pretty clear boundaries. He's a little more conservative than I am, and I respect that. Since I expect a lot of trust, and he's extended it, we get along just fine.

The guidelines specifically mean for us - do nothing that would put our partners at an emotional disadvantage. That includes no cybersex, as it creates in some people a confidence that's unjustified. I consider it to be creative writing, my husband and I have both seen it go much further than that (in fact, we met that way...) So I can write fiction here, but not FOR someone. And not AT someone. Impersonal expression is fine. Tailored for someone else's needs, not so much.

So that's reasonable.

If you don't know what your partner thinks, ask first before doing anything. If you "assume" - well, that's bad news all around. And it usually means you're just in denial about personal responsibility for a community issue.

 

[fieryjen]

Good post, RD

I think as well that the definition of cheating is different for every relationship, and needs to be established early on between the two partners. Doesn't mean it can't change later though, as the relationship progresses.

I could tell you my definition of cheating that I've established with my husband, but that would have absolutely nothing to do with the couple in question, and wouldn't really help the case.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Recidiva said it well

You seem to be saying, Redpaint, that your friends have worse problems than the cheating. The old saying goes that sex isn't important in a happy partnership, and incredibly important in an unhappy one...

 

[3113]

So what would your spouse have to do for you to say they had cheated on you? It does not have to be your spouse if your not married.

Not really a fair question as it obviously--way too obviously--depends on the couple. What it really seems to come down to, however, is that in any such relationship there is an agreed on "something" that the two share. And intimacy that glues them together. This intimacy is viewed as special, and as exclusive to the couple. And it really doesn't matter how ridiculous it seems to outsiders--what matters is if both sides understood it before they committed to each other and both sides willingly and heartily agreed to it.

And that if either side has begun to feel they don't like it, that it's clear they don't like it because it's an unfair restriction, not because they're interested in having intimacy with others. For example, a woman who isn't allowed to have any other friends by her husband--that may feel like an unfair restriction and she wants it out of the contract so she can have friends, not to cheat. A guy who suddenly says, however, "I think we should have an open relationship..." usually means, "Other girls are looking really attractive to me, and I'd like to check them out without losing you to see if any of the are better choices than you." That's not an objection against an unfair restriction; it's just them wanting to have their cake and eat it too--especially as they usually get upset when the girl says, "Okay," then finds some other guy during that open relationship and dumps them!

The problem, of course, is that the accusation of cheating also relates to insecurities on both sides. The more insecure one partner is, the more they see anything hinting of intimacy--down to talking with other men/women--as a threat to their exclusive partnership. There are of course, men/women who may have good reason to be afraid if their partner has friendships outside the marriage. Meaning that just a "friendship" with someone could lead that partner into a relationship (an affair). In such a case, however, the partner probably didn't agree to the partnership in good faith. They said they'd be "faithful" but they lied. And on some level, they knew they were lying.

What we have to be talking about here is an agreed up on intimacy that both knew about and that neither one felt or believed they wanted to break at the time they agreed to. This was their own private contract on exclusive rights, as it were--something of theirs that belongs to the other person and only to the other person. Doesn't matter what it is, even something that you feel is totally absurd and ridiculous, if they had this understanding, and the guy broke the contract by sharing this intimacy with someone else, then he cheated.

Edited to add: I will say, however, that it is totally absurd for anyone to feel that the spouse cheated on them if they had relationships with others before the marriage--not unless the spouse swore (and lied) about being a virgin.

 

[redpaint]

I'm sorry everone I know its not a fair question. I know what my veiws on cheating are. I guess I am just trying to find a reason why this happen.

Ihave knowen the husban ever since we where bouth around 4 or 5 years old. his wife I have knowen for the last 25 yearsor so. I was in love with her sister, their familey took me in when I was at the lowest part of my life. So bouth of them are pretty close to me.

After her sisters Death 10 years ago alot of us have seen that the two of them where growing apart. with her doing alot of the pushing. Her and her sister where very close. She even tired to kill herself one day by pulling out in front of a truck. Thank God the trucker was able to slow down to keep from hitting her. I can not trell you how mad I was at her for not askeing for help or even comeing to me to talk. why would she want to mess up this guy life by makeing him kill her?

For a time she seemed to get better. Then once when talking to her on the phone she told me ow she had cut her husband off from Sex becouse he was not doing things she wanted done. I told her no good would come from that. I jad thought that she had ment it as a joke...

Her husban works in a mine. the crew he works with likes to stop at this little bar close by and have a ber or two after work. She never had any trouble with him doing this, she had even told me so on many occasions. Oh the bar is a strip club. But hey they have their regualrs too. over timee youget to know the people working there and they get to know you.

NOw she has always told him that mene and women could be just friends and that does not mean they are cheating. One reason we had spent alot of time together Nothing ever happen, she to much like a sister to me.

For the last year she has been going to the doctors. and not listening to them. It was not until a few months ago I seen that she was loseing the color in her face and was kind of grey looking, not a good sign. I know her not going to the Doctors or listening to them has coused alot of argument between the two of them. They also have an adlut son they argue over that they can not agree what should be don with him. Near want to except the fact that the boy is incapeable of ever living on his own.

One night after a big argument over the boy she goes to bed he descied he needs a beer. he goes where he know to go, where he as always went the strip club. after a couple of beers he goes back home.

Where she is now waiting for him. she accues him of cheating on her. becouse he went to the strip club.

In the last two onths I have listen to bouth sides until I am at the point I want to take the bouth of them and beat their heads together several time. I chrange anymore when the phone rings becous Most likely it is one of them. I don;t like being in the middle. I can see where they both have done things through the year but she will not let this go. she has truned it into somthing that I feel it is not. I do belive he should have told her he was going to go have a beer. I also belive she should not have been supprised at where he went to have that beer. A few things I do know one she has cheagnes alot in personality over the last year and not for the good, it has all most gotten her fired. she has lost over a 100lb in a couple of months time, but refuse to have anything to do with any kind of opprateion. A coule of weeks ago she was rushec to the hospital and had to have three units of blood. Her color imporved but now its back to that ashen grey. She is also now drinking heavly.

Him on the other hnad has tried everything he can to fix this. I know it looks like I have taken sides. I have seen him have a nervuse break down over the way she is treating him. She wont talk to him unless it is to degread him in some way. She Kicked himout of the bedroom. If their two daughters are not home she will not stay in the house with him she will leave and not say where she going. if asked she will scream at him " your just trying to make me look like the guilt one." yes I have heard her scream it.


Yeah I do belive this marrage is over. I don't see her changeing her mind or excpeting any help for her medical problems. I guess I just can't take see two poeple I care about go down in flames like this. I hate feeling helpless watching this train wreacke happening.

Sorry for being so long winded and for my bad typing.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm sorry redpaint.

This is a medical and mental health issue. There's so much that needs to be done just to get to being able to BE responsible in the first place, much less do the hard work of responsibility.

That level of dysfunction and health problems and disconnection from each other isn't going away with some helpful advice from folks on a forum.

For your part, don't let it tear you up. Just try to take as many positive actions that you can without losing yourself to despair.

 

[fieryjen]

This seems a terrible situation.

To focus just on the question you asked - it seems that he did not violate any previously established parameters by going to the strip club. I don't really think cheating is the big issue here either.

 

[3113]

Whoa. That's a terrible situation. It certainly appears that the wife is having some serious mental and emotional and physical problems that probably can only be fixed by serious and prolonged medical treatment, both therapy and medication. Not by the husband.

He should understand this if he doesn't already. She's ill. And she's suicidal. And she's going to find any excuse she can to accuse him and, likely try to drive him away.

Have they *both* been to a doctor over this? Or if she won't go, has HE been to a doctor/therapist? He can't do this on his own, and he can't do this with your help only. HE needs to go see someone about the situation. He needs more help than he can get from bar buddies.

This isn't about cheating or accusations of cheating, redpaint. This is about a very ill woman in serious need of medical treatment, and a husband who needs to know what he can do to get her that treatment and save his family. All of them, not just her.

 

[JagFarlane]

Hmmmm I'd agree with jen that there appears to be no cheating on his part.

However, the issues are very much deeper than that. The cheating is just another way for her to push him away. By allowing herself to believe he's cheating, it gives her a mental excuse to become emotionally devoid of him.

This is very typical in someone suffering from "double depression" [yes that is the clinical explaination]. The best way to explain this is, imagine a line, with ups and downs, a few severe ups and downs. The severe ups representing say, marriage, child being born, normally very happy events in life. The severe downs representing say, a death in the family, in other words very sad points in life. Imagine that is how a normal persons emotional cycle is like.
Now imagine that same line, but so low that extreme happy events only hit where a normal persons extreme low events are. That is a depressed person. A double depressed person is a depressed person in an extreme depressed cycle. These, I need to forwarn you, are often signs of suicidal tendencies. Pushing away loved ones is a huge sign, because a depressed person will push them away in order "to protect them".
Fortunatly for her, she has a good friend looking out for her, and you all can take action. Mostly, because I am reading into this, and having experienced it, will tell you she's been suffering depression ever since sis died, and something just triggered a depressed cycle, perhaps the grey skin indicating a serious illness? Either way she needs to see a therapist now. Typically, she can go to a counselor, not necessarily a pysch, whom will help her, probably see her twice a week, and may recommend to her normal doctor to prescribe some form of anti-depressant. The counselor will also want to see hubby, to help explain to him whats wrong and how best to help her.
You may, have to forcibly commit her to a hospital...it typically takes 2 family signatures, or three close friends, to have one committed. Its an extreme but an option.
As far as why she tried to kill herself with the trucker? Most people are hardwired NOT to kill themselves, so they seek out ways to get others to do such. This is why suicide-by-cop has happened. Hell, even swallowing a bunch of pills, your body will reject them and you will puke most of them up, then sweat out a lot of the poison.
Either way...she needs help NOW. And hubby seriously should look into it himself...often things like this lead to depression in the spouse.

 

[Pure]

note to fiery jen and 3113

jen //Good post, RD

I think as well that the definition of cheating is different for every relationship, and needs to be established early on between the two partners. Doesn't mean it can't change later though, as the relationship progresses.

I could tell you my definition of cheating that I've established with my husband, but that would have absolutely nothing to do with the couple in question, and wouldn't really help the case.//

you seem to speak here of 'reaching agreement,' almost hammering out a deal.

similarly 3113
//Not really a fair question as it obviously--way too obviously--depends on the couple. What it really seems to come down to, however, is that in any such relationship there is an agreed on "something" that the two share. And intimacy that glues them together. This intimacy is viewed as special, and as exclusive to the couple. And it really doesn't matter how ridiculous it seems to outsiders--what matters is if both sides understood it before they committed to each other and both sides willingly and heartily agreed to it.//

i think this is absolutely right about intimacy, but if there is a mutuality in its establishment, that does not necessarily mean mutuality/equality in setting of the rules for 'fidelity.' 3113 above seems to suggest there is an agreement, a kind of meeting of minds re cheating.

other possibilities, one partner to a preponderant extent decides what cheating is, be the advantage 55% or 95%. for much of history it was the male, of course. there is no reason, of course, that 'male ascendancy' in a relationship is somehow sanctioned by god or the universe. but what exactly is wrong with a more unilateral approach? the person having more or all of the authority simply prescribes to 'more of' or a vastly greater extent, the 'rules' regarding cheating. needless to say, i'm not saying that one party chain the other to the bed: the door is open.

[del]

here is the argument: *agreement* on cheating is inherently unworkable, or at least seriously flawed. imagine, for example, a soccer game where the penalized person had to agree with the ref!
lacking a ref, imagine two teams having to reach agreement as to each instance of an infraction.

next, there is an instability in that if Jane and John hammer out the agreement, then each feels a power to change it. you know how it goes. they are counting on being able to 'sell' the other or gain their acquiescence: if Jane gets into kissing a co worker, she mentally thinks, "i'll have to bring that up as an action liying outside the scope of the agreement." and she may 'forget' for some time. [del]

 

[fieryjen]

Pure -

The agreement needs to happen before the cheating takes place, so in a way, the parties need to agree on the rules before the game starts, to use your metaphor. Rules can be modified, but not after an infraction has already taken place. If one of the players would be comfortable with a rule change, he can bring it up, but it goes without saying that the other players would be skeptical about this if that player had just broken the rule in question. If the change is brought up in good faith though and the other players agree that they wouldn't mind playing this way, the rule change can be implemented.

My husband and me didn't "hammer out a deal", deciding what we were both comfortable with happened a bit more organically, but we were always pretty clear about what we would or would not be comfortable with.

For example, we were completely exclusive for a long time in our relationship. At some point, one of us brought up threesomes, and we talked about this "rule change" for quite a while, before we both agreed on the "parameters" of it, and we decided we'd want to try it. If my husband had tried to get me into a threesome without discussing this with me first (if he'd brought home a random girl for us to share, for example) of course I'd be pissed, because I never agreed to anything.

 

[3113]

For example, we were completely exclusive for a long time in our relationship. At some point, one of us brought up threesomes, and we talked about this "rule change" for quite a while, before we both agreed on the "parameters" of it, and we decided we'd want to try it. If my husband had tried to get me into a threesome without discussing this with me first (if he'd brought home a random girl for us to share, for example) of course I'd be pissed, because I never agreed to anything.

Excellent point. And it comes back, Pure, to the difference between accusing someone of cheating, and actual cheating. Cheating, IMHO, is always about one thing: You want something and you know (or suspect) that the other person will disapprove or won't let you have it if you ask them for it. So you do it on the sly. You do it for yourself, and you don't tell the other person you've done it.

There are, however, things a person may do, innocently and honestly, that they don't know would feel like cheating to a spouse. If that happens, and the spouse feels "cheated on" then they work it out--one hopes. That is an "accusation" of cheating, but it's only an accusation. It's not really cheating if the person honestly did not think it would hurt their partner, and didn't do it on the sly.

I think we're all aware that every future possibility can't be hammered out and agreed on prior to the wedding. Everyone makes innocent "mistakes," and that goes for every part of the relationship. And when these happen they have to be worked out--was it a mistake, or is the other person over-reacting?

But the whole idea of a relationship is that you know your partner, and you do the best you can not to give into whims of self-gratification that might end up hurting them. When it comes to cheating, real cheating, the person *knows* they're doing something the other one would not approve of, something that will hurt/anger their partner if they learn about it, whether its gambling away the milk money or going to strip joint. And it's usually something that they don't "need" to have in order to be happy (like a wife needing friends to be happy, even if her husband wants her to have no friends but him).

If they need it to be happy, then it's time to have a heart-to-heart talk with the partner.

 

[redpaint]

He is seeing a counsleor. he got his wife to call for an appoment. I know see called. I don't know when she is to go or if she will go. I know she rip the husband pretty bad on the phone to the counselor or at lest tird too.

He has looked in to the mentail health thing. If he can not get her to go, he can call the police and they will take her if he can prove she is a danger to herslef. In witch case they can hold her for 72 hours and she would be unable to sign herself out. after that it would be up to the Docotrs.

The one thing I had forgot to say the last time is she has also lost a brother in an accdent. he was 19 at the time. he was working in a scape yard to earn money to help with his going to collage at the time. Also a few weeks before her sister was killed in a car wreak( a coal truck had pulled out in front of her. She swerved to miss it and rolled her car. her Seat belt cut her throught and she bleed to death in less than a minute.) Her step fater had diead of a heart attack. it didn't come a supprise we all knew his hart was bad and there was nothing that could be done for it. He was on a transplant list waiting at the time. I know she took his death hard too.

She is the kind of person that has to always be right. Me and her has bumed heads more than once over things becouse of that. Becouse she pretty much grew up in a shriners(sp) Hospital becouse of a brith deficit. she tends to belive no one is more handicaped than she is or can hurt more than her. She has a very high tollarnce for pain. also tend to hold things in.

HE had a hard desicon to make this week end. they belong to the 4H saddle club bouth his daughters has rode horse since befor they could walk. They had a trial ride plaind from the frist of this year. They all knew she would not go, even before all this happen. He didn't want to let his girls down. so he took them. He has called me several times to check on his wife. becosue she wont answer his calls. She wont answer most of mine eiather.

I know what we must do know and its not going to be easy. she may ahte us all for what we are about to do.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Best wishes and all strength to you man.
Of course she's going to hate you-- but she hates everyone right now anyway, herself most of all. If the hospital can straighten out her chemicals a bit, her thoughts will have a chance to straighten out too, like putting a cast on a broken leg..

You guys are doing the right thing, from what you say.

 

[JagFarlane]

Best wishes and all strength to you man.
Of course she's going to hate you-- but she hates everyone right now anyway, herself most of all. If the hospital can straighten out her chemicals a bit, her thoughts will have a chance to straighten out too, like putting a cast on a broken leg..

You guys are doing the right thing, from what you say.

Agreed

 

[Corylea]

It sounds to me like this woman needs a hospital, pronto.

And Redpaint, you need to get some support for yourself. Both parties are leaning on you pretty heavily during this, and that's a big burden for you to carry, especially since they're trying to hand you a lot of the responsibility for making things better without also handing you the power to do anything, which is crazy-making. Talk to a friend or therapist, get extra fun and extra rest, be sure to eat especially well -- take extra-good care of yourself while all this is going on.