What is a cliché?

[hiddenself]

Originally posted by dr_mabeuse (in a thread in the AH)
A complete list of cliches and terms to avoid:
http://www.clichesite.com/index.asp

I didn't feel that many of the expressions listed at that site were clichés.

For example, why would we want to avoid phrases like
"A one-night stand"
"When push comes to shove" or
"Driving me crazy"?
Such are perfectly fine descriptive expressions that are parts of everyday speech!
Others, like
"Tell a tall tale" or
"Makes my blood boil"
are also not a problem at all if used in a way that fits a particular writing style.

But maybe my understanding of the term "cliché" is not the same as other people's? What is your own definition of a cliché to be avoided?

Merriam-Webster's definition:
Etymology: French, literally, printer's stereotype, from past participle of clicher to stereotype, of imitative origin
1 : a trite phrase or expression; also : the idea expressed by it
2 : a hackneyed theme, characterization, or situation
3 : something (as a menu item) that has become overly familiar or commonplace

What makes it "trite" or "overly" familiar?

 

[Lady Christabel]

I edit slang, colloquialisms and clichés from the storyline unless I have specific instructions to the contrary, they fit the writing style or they provide visual imagery no other phrasing could provide. If appropriate to the conversation and character, they may remain in dialogue regardless of storyline style.

Why edit from the storyline? You said it best. "Such are perfectly fine descriptive expressions that are parts of everyday speech!" Precisely correct, they are parts of everyday speech. People spew them daily hoping to sound profound, witty or knowledgeable; they don't. Clichés lazily fill dull conversations just as they lazily fill empty page space.

 

[HawaiiBill]

Just for the record

Cliche' is an adjective.

If you use the word as a noun you speak of: "The French name for a stereotype block; a cast or ‘dab’; applied esp. to a metal stereotype of a wood-engraving used to print from.
"Originally, a cast obtained by letting a matrix fall face downward upon a surface of molten metal on the point of cooling, called in English type-foundries ‘dabbing’." From the OED which also informs us that it also refers to a negative in photography.

That needn't matter here but we are discussing words.

 

[Madame Manga]

What makes it "trite" or "overly" familiar?

If you recognize the expression, it's a familiar one. Most familiar expressions are either old as the hills (cliche #1) or current catch-phrases (cliche #2). Either way, they identify the speaker or writer as a person who relies on other people's words to make his or her points.

Flagging every familiar expression in a story is a useful exercise for several reasons, IMO.

First, you will get a sense of how often you fall back on hackneyed phrases. If you are peppering every descriptive paragraph with several of them, that should tell you something needs to change. Readers don't think through cliches. "Old as the hills", for instance--do you imagine ancient, crumbling heights emerging from millions of years of erosion and geologic uplift? Probably not. The words are too familiar for your reader to really SEE what they describe any more.

Second, you can examine the context in which you have used them and decide whether they are the most appropriate way of conveying the idea. Yes, if you are writing a character who thinks in a pre-fab, conventional manner, it wouldn't be appropriate to have him speak in poetic or powerful phrases. He needs his handy-dandy cliches and catch phrases.

Other than a situation like that, it's difficult for me to think of a reason to use familiar phrases on purpose. Especially in narration and description, where your writer's voice is most personal, IMO cliches have little place. Use of them says something about you that you may not intend.

Third, you can stretch your vocabulary and imagination to come up with alternative, original expressions. This I think is extremely valuable; when you do not automatically fall into cliche but look for your own way of putting things, all of your writing will gain freshness. Ideas can be cliches too. If you have not completely thought through both what you mean to say and how you say it, why should your reader?

One favorite method of mine for dealing with cliches is to acknowledge the triteness of the expression and play with it: "He might not have been as old as the hills, but he was at least as old as the mouldering mountain of trash heaped behind his rusty trailer."

MM

 

[HawaiiBill]

Ah, a peaceful mind

Madame Manga's presence on any forum is so welcome. Fine thoughts that instruct have been her hallmark on a range of issues and questions. Her language, trenchant and balanced, is most satisfying to these appreciative eyes.

 

[hiddenself]

Thanks MM and Lady C. But I suppose I was asking what is overly familiar. Surely, not all everyday expressions are clichés?

Is "when push comes to shove" a cliché?
How about "that little drip-drip sound was driving me nuts"?

I suspect this is an issue of "I know it when I see it" (hey, what da ya know, just like obscene material!), and has to be taken in context of the general writing or speaking style. Perhaps a statement that sounds clichéd in one person's lips may be quite vivid and meaningful when someone else voices it?

 

[HawaiiBill]

Think 'cliche' as an adjective

I know, SOME dictionaries list the word cliche' as either an adjective or a noun. But the Oxford English Dictionary sees it only as an adjective and I suggest you adopt that for a moment -- for purposes of this discussion -- because it makes sense.

Asking if, "proud as a peacock" is cliche' is easier to handle than 'whether it is a cliche' - as though you were asking if it were a bicycle. What I'm getting at is that the same phrase may be cliche' in some instances but not others. If you try to pin any phrase down on that question it's impossible to define without context.

I have raised peafowl in my life and the sentence, "My main bird is as proud as a peacock has every right to be," doesn't have anything cliche' about it.

Does that help?

 

[Lady Christabel]

This question made me think (I try not to do that, it scares the squirrels) so I excavated my old files and found class notes from my school days. Dr. F. could explain anything in less than thirty words:

"If, through diligent thought and careful consideration, there is simply no other way to describe a concept other than a cliché phrase, the phrase is not cliché."

I miss Dr. F.

 

[yaspis]

Every French dictionary I own (3 + a grammar monster) states thet clichè is both a noun and an adjective. All my English dictionaries, phrase books and grammar tomes state, that clichè is just a noun in American English. A noun, though, can easily be twisted to an adjective in almost every language.

 

[hiddenself]

Every French dictionary I own (3 + a grammar monster) states thet clichè is both a noun and an adjective. All my English dictionaries, phrase books and grammar tomes state, that clichè is just a noun in American English. A noun, though, can easily be twisted to an adjective in almost every language.

Yes, well, it's not the first (and, I am sure, not the last) time that HB argues nonsense, either making up stuff or selectively quoting information. He is also trying to "catch" me in something wrong cause I've called him on his posts a few times.

The word is shown as a noun (and often an adjective as well) in all (not "some") reputable dictionaries (including Merriam-Webster's, American Heritage, and OED).

From the OED (supplement, vol. I, A-G, 1972):
cliché -- fig. A stereotypical expression, a commonplace phrase; also, a stereotyped character, style, etc.

But what can you do with people who both are ignorant and argue in bad faith?

 

[snooper]

... in all (not "some") reputable dictionaries ...

That is merely your definition of "reputable".

May I again regret the advent of ad hominem argument.

 

[HawaiiBill]

Some people need pity

As with monkeys in the zoo, hiddenself just cant help it. Been that way since birth.

 

[hiddenself]

That is merely your definition of "reputable".

Hey, Snoop.

I did not pick the OED as reference, HB did. You decide whose argument was factual and whose was not according to that standard.

So I'm not using my own definition of "reputable" -- in fact, I'll let you decide it. Point to one dictionary that you consider reasonably reliable and complete and that does not have the definition of cliché as I gave it. I will then withrdraw my statement as false. I've checked six major sources with the same result -- "some do" implies that at least a few do not follow the pattern. Which are they?

Until then...

 

[spyro1123]

Personally the phrases that bother me in erotic writing are not things like "old as the hills" but are more often are discriptions of sexual acts "pistoning in and out" is a pet peeve of mine (that i think i used in my story.. damn). Also there are whole sections of stories that seem as if they could be cut and pasted into others.
To me this is the biggest example of cliche (or a cliche depending on who you are) that you find on literoitica. I did not realise how very hard it is to show something interesting about your charicters while still writing an exciting scene untill i started batting words around myself. Those who do it well leave me in awe.

spyro

(sorry for any spelling /grammar errors no one edits my posts )

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Whether or not a phrase or image stands out as a cliche seems to depend on the context, at least for me.

I don't mind someone mentioning that it was "raining cats and dogs" if it's done incidentally, in the course of a scene description maybe. However, if there's build-up to it--if a character's stuck in a haunted house because there's a storm brewing and he looks out the window and sees that it's suddenly "raining cats and dogs"... Well, I think we expect more of an author than that. That's just shining a spotlight on banality.

"Push comes to shove" and others have almost become idioms or figures of speech and they definitely have their place. In fact, avoiding all cliches can make your writing seem overly refined and too precious. Up above I used the cliche "storm brewing", but I think it was acceptable. In any case, I didn;t notice it at first.

---dr.M.

 

[yaspis]

I think that in erotica, clichè might also be a certain well-known structure of the piece of text that is commonly used. Such might be what I call the "chunking", poorly translated. It means that certain things are told in certain paragraphs and that's it, a bit like a classic essay answer structure: introduction, reasons for actions, actions, closure. It's hard to explain - I'll post another one when I have slept a tad more.

 

[Chmleon]

I have often been amazed by how many times I have heard a common expression and dismissed it as overused without actually pondering the original. As a matter of fact, often I am amazed at how well cliches (minus an accent) express an abstract quality that I have assigned to something.

Now, the question that intrigues me is whether I have used the cliche itself to charactarize something otherwise perhaps only vaguely familiar. For example, how many people have any real experience with millinery, yet label someone contemptously as "mad as a hatter." Incidentally, upon wondering where such a saying could have originated I stumbled upon the root of milliner, "Milaner" or "inhabitant of Milan" which becomes "a man from Milan who imported women's finery."

I am no more attracted to reading a long string of poorly laced cliches than the next girl, but I also feel that beneath the overly sweet icing sometimes the cake is surprisingly delicious.

Another to ponder: "The proof is in the pudding"

Give up?

 

[snooper]

I have often been amazed by how many times I have heard a common expression and dismissed it as overused without actually pondering the original. ...

This reminds me of the man who went (for the first time in his life) to see a Shakespeare play and said it was all right, but Shakespeare wasn't very original; the work was full of quotations and clichés.