WHAT IF? What if there really is no Creator and no other Sentient Life in the Univers

[amicus]

The ‘God’ thing is easy; there ain’t one.

I don’t fault our ancestors for becoming aware of the mysteries and complexities of life and postulating a creator, actually a fairly rational and logical supposition.

I don’t even look unkindly upon the masses and those who shepherd them in life and death and tragedy with a solace versed in salvation and forgiveness, what else can they turn to?

But for those of us who ‘know’, that the existence of any entity or object, must, by definition, present by its existence, evidence of said existence.

Thus, let’s put the God thing to rest; at least for this thread.

The second part, ‘no other sentient life in the Universe…’, be a bit more complex to explain.

In my youthful days as a curious lad, I was certain that the Universe and probably our own solar system was teeming with life, usually the ‘BEM’ kind, Bug Eyed Monsters, the favorite of early sci fi writers.

Then the 50’s and 60’s with sworn sightings of ‘UFO’s’ abounding and even more sci fi novels and themes about how terrible mankind was and that much more intelligent species were about to punish us for atomic energy, war and more recently, ‘polluting the planet.’

Then Jody Foster, prodded by Carl Sagan, in ‘Contact’, “It would be an awful waste of space…”

According to Sagan and mathematical and astronomical cohorts, it was unthinkable in the vastness of the Universe and supremely egocentric to think there was no other life than homo sapiens.

I even bought into that line of thinking for a while, beguiled by the mathematics of probability, permutations and extrapolations of possibilities.

For this next part, only a handful on this forum are cognizant of the science and research necessary to comprehend the postulation.

As a species, we are not even children, rather infants, in comprehending our own existence and the evolution of life and more, the evolution of solar and planetary existence.

But what we have learned, through the earth sciences and basic mathematics, physics and astronomy, is that evolution is an extremely violent procedure.

Through a series of televised programs concerning our Moon and Mars, over the years, more and more becomes even more complex.

NASA proclaimed that Mars once had an environment suitable for life to exist. All the ingredients were there, at one time, long ago.

“Life” can only exist under certain conditions. Those conditions include planetary make-up and distance from the source of life, a sun; not too far, not too close.

Within those parameters, a suitable planet must have an Iron core and a rotation to create a magnetic ‘shield’ to block radiation from the sun or life, of any kind, cannot begin and evolve.

You would have to do the research to understand, but, life would never have begun on Earth without a ‘Moon’. A satellite that determines tilt of the planet, speed of rotation and lunar gravity that creates seasons and tides.

That is just the easy part, and only part of it as I am already on page two of this word document.

The hard part is the evolution of the planet that ‘could’ support life if it were to emerge.

Again, only a handful will have the understanding to comprehend the process of the evolution of life from stage to stage through the millions and billions of years that has passed.

A few of you will know the various geologic ‘ages’ the planet has passed through, thanks to the work of men and women whose dedication to science is beyond my capacity to duplicate but not to admire and appreciate.

There are, through the ages, times, measured in millions of years, when life flourished on this planet and then was extinguished.

There were times in the past when all the land mass of planet earth was tied together, “Pangea” or something akin to that, I think. The continents are continually moving.

There were times in the past when the magnetic field of earth, shifted over long periods of time to where the north pole became the south pole and the magnetic shield ceased to exist and radiation from the sun eliminated most if not all life on earth.

This has happened perhaps countless times in the four and a half billion year history of planet earth.

Then there were large asteroids, who knows how many, that destroyed most all life of earth, the 65 million year ago episode with the dinosaurs.

Then there are episodes of Vulcanism that wiped out life on earth, and ice ages that include a ‘snowball earth’ scenario when even the equator was several hundred meters under a glacier.

Then there are indications that nearby supernova’s permeated earth with deadly cosmic radiation and episodes of solar flares that irradiated planet earth to a degree of destroying most if not all life.

There is ten times as much more evidence and science one could present and perhaps some here will add more, but I hope that will suffice.

Sagan and cohorts, who insisted that ‘billions and billions’ of life forms must exist in the Universe, has come under serious consideration by the leading thinkers in the field.

Taking all things into consideration, well, at least the ‘things’ I have learned, I conclude that the mere existence of sentient life of planet earth is almost a ‘biblical’ miracle and is not likely repeated elsewhere.

I suppose I could have made my case better but if you see the direction, perhaps you are now ready for the theme of the thread…

What if there is no creator and we, homo sapiens, are indeed the only life form in the Universe?

Would it change how you felt about life and the future and the past?

I think mankind will colonize the Moon, terraform Mars and find a way to approach light speed and set forth to populate the Universe.

How say you?

Amicus…

 

[Pure]

check your math. travelling at, say, 95% the speed of light does not get you very far in the universe; the part of the universe accessible with traveltime up to, say, 200 years is just a tiny percentage of the whole.

if humans are unique, they better stop poisoning their water supply. ah but you don't favor governments doing anything about pollution, right? and you reject all international treaties that would hinder the US in doing what it pleases.

hey, problem solved. humans extinguish themselves: free market solution to the "human condition."

 

[flavortang]

check your math. travelling at, say, 95% the speed of light does not get you very far in the universe; the part of the universe accessible with traveltime up to, say, 200 years is just a tiny percentage of the whole.

if humans are unique, they better stop poisoning their water supply. ah but you don't favor governments doing anything about pollution, right? and you reject all international treaties that would hinder the US in doing what it pleases.

hey, problem solved. humans extinguish themselves: free market solution to the "human condition."

I agree. When the fuck is that Doomsday meteor getting here? I mean, c'mon already!

And, Pure, don't be so naive. The 'environment' is just something those wacky liberals came up with so that they can drive their hybrid cars. Oh, and they hate us for our freedom. Not really any logic in there, but, whatever.

 

[Recidiva]

I agree with you, but because I do not know the answer, not that I do know it.

I believe my little self is too small to truly know the answers to any of these questions.

Humans map a little and project a lot.

I consider humans very much like ants in my back yard finding my car keys. Even if one of them could figure out what the keys were for, I very much doubt they could drive.

I prefer to learn all I can, and even with all the learning of philosophy, theology and cosmology, as fascinating as it is, it maps only a tiny percentage of what we'd need to truly know, in order to get the answer to the questions.

 

[flavortang]

I agree with you, but because I do not know the answer, not that I do know it.

I believe my little self is too small to truly know the answers to any of these questions.

Humans map a little and project a lot.

I consider humans very much like ants in my back yard finding my car keys. Even if one of them could figure out what the keys were for, I very much doubt they could drive.

I prefer to learn all I can, and even with all the learning of philosophy, theology and cosmology, as fascinating as it is, it maps only a tiny percentage of what we'd need to truly know, in order to get the answer to the questions.

I agree with every damn word. Perfectly stated.

 

[jomar]

Thousands if not millions of galaxies are being discovered. Despite the fragile conditions needed for life (as we know it) to exist, I think it highly likely life exists elsewhere in the universe.

 

[cloudy]

I think it's the height of arrogance to believe that we are the only sentient life there is - ever. So, it doesn't surprise me, that belief coming from amicus.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

The not so friendly environment on our own planet has shown that life can exist is the most hostile places. The floor of our own oceans is teaming with life that never see the sun. Also the "black smokers", volcanic vents of super heated water have a diverse ecosystem of life.

It has recently been postulated that Europa, one of the moons of Jupiter, has life in its ice covered oceans.

Too even speculate that we, "man", are the only intelligent life in a vast and diversified universe is foolish. There is a googleplex of galaxies in the universe, we are but one solar system in a galaxy. The odds are in favor of there being life other than our own in the universe.

That life may not even be life as we know it but it will be life.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck.

 

[Recidiva]

The not so friendly environment on our own planet has shown that life can exist is the most hostile places. The floor of our own oceans is teaming with life that never see the sun. Also the "black smokers", volcanic vents of super heated water have a diverse ecosystem of life.

It has recently been postulated that Europa, one of the moons of Jupiter, has life in its ice covered oceans.

Too even speculate that we, "man", are the only intelligent life in a vast and diversified universe is foolish. There is a googleplex of galaxies in the universe, we are but one solar system in a galaxy. The odds are in favor of there being life other than our own in the universe.

That life may not even be life as we know it but it will be life.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck.

Seeing all the recent research into extremophile life forms has made it more plausible for me to believe that life evolves in extremes we didn't imagine.

So for me I'm making the shift from thinking life formed because of a random lightning strike on pond scum...and believing that life is possible in so many places. Things surviving in magma seem believable. That the intense pressure and heat is what creates life to begin with.

Seeing the nature of life and conflict and such, it's a nice thought.

I'm more of a mind to think that unless life was seeded from planet to planet, and we meet a planet that hasn't diverged far from the our "Seed" - we very likely won't recognize a completely different life form or be able to communicate with it.

Just the speed and time frame with which humans operate, and the barest span of where we can survive, make it difficult to believe we could communicate with crystalline structures that likely last longer and communicate in a different manner. F'r'instance.

 

[BlackShanglan]

The ‘God’ thing is easy; there ain’t one.

I don’t fault our ancestors for becoming aware of the mysteries and complexities of life and postulating a creator, actually a fairly rational and logical supposition.

I don’t even look unkindly upon the masses and those who shepherd them in life and death and tragedy with a solace versed in salvation and forgiveness, what else can they turn to?

But for those of us who ‘know’, that the existence of any entity or object, must, by definition, present by its existence, evidence of said existence.

Thus, let’s put the God thing to rest; at least for this thread.

Yes, indeed. It's only a pity we weren't a few years earlier with this, or we could also have put to rest DNA, Sedna, the AIDS virus, and any number of other phenomena that, at that stage, had failed to supply us with evidence of their existence. It's true that we'd be short of the very useful ability to test DNA, but we could have wiped out AIDS conclusively by proving that it couldn't exist. As for Sedna, I can't be bothered one way or another. Any sub-planetary mass that can't be bothered to announce itself to us for thousands of years clearly doesn't deserve to really exist anyway.

For this next part, only a handful on this forum are cognizant of the science and research necessary to comprehend the postulation.

Being as familiar with what passes for your research as I am, I do love when you come out with Divine Proclamations of the Elect like this, because it's bound to be followed by ... well, something quite like this other:

Through a series of televised programs concerning our Moon and Mars, over the years, more and more becomes even more complex.

Ah, yes. Who else but you could have had the patience and scholarly dedication to watch a series of televised programs?

I realize that you have a very low opinion of the intellects and knowledge of others as compared to your own, Amicus. I'm just dashed if I can figure out what the grounding for that opinion might be.

Within those parameters, a suitable planet must have an Iron core and a rotation to create a magnetic ‘shield’ to block radiation from the sun or life, of any kind, cannot begin and evolve.

And an infant crawling about its playroom might hypothesize that clearly, for life to exist, Mommy and Daddy must be present, and a room with an ambient environment of little painted elephants on the wallpaper border. Would it be correct, or would it be describing the circumstances under which it, the only example of life it is familiar with, currently lives?

You would have to do the research to understand, but, life would never have begun on Earth without a ‘Moon’. A satellite that determines tilt of the planet, speed of rotation and lunar gravity that creates seasons and tides.

And therefore any planet that wants to support life needs a moon? Cobblers. Right on the planet we live on, we have forms of life capable of living inside of stones in the bottoms of abandoned mineshafts. They don't exhibit any noticable need for seasons or tides.

You're assuming that "life" is going to have to look like the stuff we have here on earth. But ultimately, there are nearly as many ways of doing the chief thing that life has to do - transmit information, in the form of some sort of genetic code - as there are combinations of the materials in the periodic table of elements. The fact that nothing on Earth has worked in any given way tells us only that life hasn't chosen, happened, or needed to work that way here.

Again, only a handful will have the understanding to comprehend the process of the evolution of life from stage to stage through the millions and billions of years that has passed.

This is flatly silly. While it's true that it's still a depressing figure in and of itself, about half of the population of the country understands the idea of evolution well enough to believe that it did indeed occur and is indeed occuring. This is basic high school biology, Amicus, not Secrets from Behind the Veil.

After some excerpts from The Ladybird Handbook of Interesting Science Facts:
There is ten times as much more evidence and science one could present and perhaps some here will add more, but I hope that will suffice.

Evidence of what, precisely? The Earth has changed over time, being in some ages more encouraging to life and in others more hostile. This tells us precisely nothing about the actual events of any other planet, and at best allows us to form this useful conjecture: "Other planets probably change over time as well, being at some times more welcoming and at others more hostile to life." What part of that appears to you to support the theory that life cannot exist on other planets?

Sagan and cohorts, who insisted that ‘billions and billions’ of life forms must exist in the Universe, has come under serious consideration by the leading thinkers in the field.

Taking all things into consideration, well, at least the ‘things’ I have learned, I conclude that the mere existence of sentient life of planet earth is almost a ‘biblical’ miracle and is not likely repeated elsewhere.

It's rather adorable the way you jump from "leading thinkers in the field" to you, but I think it's more of a leap than most of us are willing to take with you.

I suppose I could have made my case better but if you see the direction, perhaps you are now ready for the theme of the thread…

Yes, indeed you could have. I live in hope that at some point the distinction between supplying facts in general and supplying factual grounding for your claims will become clear to you, but for now I suppose that we must make do with what we have.

So what do we have? A history of the planet Earth, none of which tells us anything specific about other planets, and a heap of conjecture all predicated upon an unproven assumption, to wit: life can only arise in forms very similar to the forms with which we are familiar on this planet. Given that one chief characteristic of life - thanks, in fact, to that evolution idea you were so keen on - is that it adapts itself to its environment, what are the odds of that?

Personally, I think you're too quickly dismissing ... well, really, there are so many ways to end that sentence, but let's stick with "the size of the universe," which is beyond human capacity to truly grasp. At a rough estimate, there are something like a hundred billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy alone, and that is one of billions of galaxies estimated in the universe as a whole. Given that each of those stars has the possibility of harboring multiple planets, and given that rocky, Earth-like planets appear likely to be fairly common (a few notes on that topic), you're going to need more than "the formation of life appears unlikely to me." Even if the odds were in the order of a trillion-to-one against life arising on any given planet, that would still leave us with excellent odds of life arising within any clutch of, say, five or six galaxies. And frankly, I'm not convinced that it's even that long of a set of odds.

What if there is no creator and we, homo sapiens, are indeed the only life form in the Universe?

Would it change how you felt about life and the future and the past?

I think it's highly unlikely that the latter theory, at least, is true. The former I don't think a matter for probability. However, assuming that these theories are true, and assuming that somehow they could be proven - which is, of course, completely beyond human abilities at this time - yes, it would change how I felt about life and the past and future.

I wouldn't be terribly troubled by the lack of other life in the universe, although a little saddened; after all, life can begin at any point, and with hundreds of billions times hundreds of billions of chances to start, I'd be fairly optimistic that it would eventually arise somewhere, with or without our help.

I'm not sure what could convince me that there was no creator. It's not a question that is susceptible to scientific proof. Death, I suppose, is the great proving-ground, but as Shakespeare observed, no traveller there has yet returned with word of the arrangements. Assuming, purely for conjecture's sake, that conclusive proof of the lack of a diety was somehow available, I would feel painfully lonely and disappointed, as I have been grateful for the sense of God's guidance and presence many times in my life. However, I do recognize that nothing is guaranteed to human understanding; ironically, it was Saint Paul who told us that all human knowledge is imperfect. I think I would come to look upon Christ as a remarkably inspired human, worthy of great reverence still, and to look upon the Bible and religion as, at their best, noble things that set for humans great ideals to strive for, and encouraged us to always seek to be better than we are. It would pain me to know that I would never be able to meet this wonderful person whom I have long felt I have, at least a little bit, known - but it would not stop me from living up to ideals I think inspiring and beautiful.

I'm reminded of Puddleglum the Marsh-Wiggle's stand in The Silver Chair, when the witch is lulling away her captives' memories of the surface world and telling them that it was all a lie. In a beautiful mixture of Christ and Wilde, Puddleglum tells her that even if it was all a lie made up by babies, her "real" underground world must be a pretty sad thing if babies making up lies could come up with something so much better and more beautiful and more fine. I think I would follow his battle-cry: "I'm for Narnia even if there is no Narnia! I'm for Aslan whether he's there or not!"

I think mankind will colonize the Moon, terraform Mars and find a way to approach light speed and set forth to populate the Universe.

How say you?

Amicus…

I think it interesting that the odds of life in the rest of the universe seem to you to be so insurmountable, and yet the odds of mankind solving the mystery of faster-than-light travel so good that it's hardly worth a mention as an obstacle.

I'm not sure about colonization of the Moon, or of any non-terraformable body. The environment is so hostile that living there would be extremely expensive. Right now, we haven't found anything up there that we need that badly. But times and technology change. I think it's possible in the future, but I think that we would need very persuasive reasons to go there.

Faster-than-light travel I'm not convinced about. Undoubtedly it would be necessary for any sort of real exploration beyond our solar system, but need won't change material reality. I don't know if it's solvable or not.

Shanglan

 

[BlackShanglan]

I agree with you, but because I do not know the answer, not that I do know it.

I believe my little self is too small to truly know the answers to any of these questions.

Humans map a little and project a lot.

I consider humans very much like ants in my back yard finding my car keys. Even if one of them could figure out what the keys were for, I very much doubt they could drive.

I prefer to learn all I can, and even with all the learning of philosophy, theology and cosmology, as fascinating as it is, it maps only a tiny percentage of what we'd need to truly know, in order to get the answer to the questions.

Amen. I'm just a wee ant, but I do love speculating upon those car keys. I don't even mind never getting to drive.

 

[Recidiva]

Amen. I'm just a wee ant, but I do love speculating upon those car keys. I don't even mind never getting to drive.

James Taylor - New Hymn

Source of all we hope or dread
Sheepdog, jackal, rattler, swan
We hunt your face and long to trust
That your hid mouth will say again
Let there be light
A clear new day

But when we thirst in this dry night
We drink from hot wells poisoned with the blood of children
And when we strain to hear a steady homing beam
Our ears are balked by stifled moans
And howls of desolation from the throats of sisters, brothers, wild men
Clawing at the gates for bread

Even our own feeble hands
Ache to seize the crown you wear
And work our private havoc through
The known and unknown lands of space

Absolute in flame beyond us
Seed and source of Dark and Day
Maker whom we beg to be
Our mother father comrade mate

'Til our few atoms blow to dust
Or form again in wiser lives
Or find your face and hear our name
In your calm voice the end of night
If dark may end
Wellspring goal of Dark and Day

Be here
Be now

 

[tickledkitty]

Shanglan

Thank you.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Shanglan

Thank you.

For finally stopping?

 

[tickledkitty]

For finally stopping?

No. For saying what you said and saying it so well.

 

[BlackShanglan]

No. For saying what you said and saying it so well.

*paws shyly at ground*

You're much too kind. Thank you.

 

[Verdad]

Seems like you're talking about Fermi Paradox.

From the linked wikipedia article: "Frank Drake himself has commented that the Drake Equation is unlikely to settle the Fermi paradox; instead it is just a way of organizing our ignorance on the subject."

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

We can travel the universe, or at least the galaxy.

There is no reason to place an arbitrary 200 year limit on the duration of interstellar trips. With fusion, light sails and other not-very-speculative technolgies, nothing prevents us from converting a giant asteroid or very small planetoid into a very comfortable generation-ship, and traveling for thousands of years. Get a few colonies going that after a few hundred years themselves send out colonies, which then do the same, etc., and over the next 10,000 to 100,000 years we could be spread far and wide, doing really cool and wonderful stuff.

Man is unique because our rationality gives us the power to think about and do such things, and to control what we will become evolutionarily. Plus we make cool cities, great music, literature and art, and so much more (including hot porn, fun parties and wonderful friendships.) We have lots of other unique qualities and capabilities as well. Some bad habits too, but we're young - give us time.

The mystical cult of enviromentalism is really very short-sighted. It holds up a recent and transient ecological status-quo as sacred and permanent, pretends that nothing changes on this world, and then engages in extensive hair-pulling and garment rending over the prospect of change. We're not going to "destroy the planet." We do change it, and have been doing so for thousands of years. Over time we're more likely to make it better than worse, to the extent such terms even mean anything.

Someday the earth will be destroyed, either when the sun blows up or when some other cosmic catastrophe occurs. All those non-sentient species and systems people have made a religion of will be incinerated, and won't be able to do a damned thing about about, or even know it.

We are a very young species, especially in our current form as homo-industrial civilizationus. Much of what is said here and on these issues in general is the product of very short time horizons - natural I suppose given the short duration of individual lifespans. You all need to expand your horizons, and also love yourselves more.

When the earth is blown up, we will have moved on, and who knows what we will have become. We are much more worthy of placing on an altar than pretty but dumb nature. Love your species.

 

[Seattle Zack]

The Galaxy Song

Whenever life get you down, Mrs. Brown...
And things seem hard or tough...
And people are stupid, obnoxious, or daft...
And you feel that you've had quite enooouuuugh!

(Singing)
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour.
It's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
The Sun that is the source of all our power.
The Sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see,
Are moving at a million miles a day.
In the outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the Galaxy we call the Milky Way.

Our Galaxy itself contains one hundred billion stars,
It's one hundred thousand light-years side-to-side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light-years thick,
But out by us it's just three thousand light-years wide.
We're thirty thousand light-years from galactic central point,
We go round every two hundred million years.
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding,
In all of the directions it can whizz.
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light you know,
Twelve million miles a minute (and that's the fastest speed there is).
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth.
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
Because there's bugger all down here on Earth.

 

[Belegon]

of course, Ami is going to come back and smile because most of us concentrated on his preamble and ignored his actual questions at the end, thus giving him false reassurance about the superiority of his intellect. That's his way.

What if there is no creator and we, homo sapiens, are indeed the only life form in the Universe?

Would it change how you felt about life and the future and the past?

I think mankind will colonize the Moon, terraform Mars and find a way to approach light speed and set forth to populate the Universe.

How say you?

in the short run it changes nothing about my life at this point. I'm far too involved in raising children and trying to negotiate my own rather limited future and what to do in the next six months...

in the long run, it means that we need to quit living for ourselves and think about the real inheritance we are leaving for our children.

If there truly is no God, then the majority of the human race is a bunch of deluded fools who are currently doing everything in their power to prevent the rest of us from reaching the stars... because nothing will reduce the importance of muslim vs. christian vs. jew like the proof that the heavens are not simply a dark blanket with pretty patterns punched through and draped in front of a holy floodlight.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

PS to my previous: If we meet any others like ourselves (sentient) then I hope they are rational and friendly. The characterization of those Drake equation thingies as ways to "organize our ignorance" is right on. IOW, none of us have a clue whether there's anyone else out there, or what the chances are.

 

[flavortang]

PS to my previous: If we meet any others like ourselves (sentient) then I hope they are rational and friendly. The characterization of those Drake equation thingies as ways to "organize our ignorance" is right on. IOW, none of us have a clue whether there's anyone else out there, or what the chances are.

But you forgot one point, Roxanne; Amicus is smarter than everyone. I'm building a shrine to him in my garage.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

But you forgot one point, Roxanne; Amicus is smarter than everyone. I'm building a shrine to him in my garage.

Per my previous post, expand the pedestal and put us all on it.

 

[flavortang]

Per my previous post, expand the pedestal and put us all on it.

Yeah... but then I'd have to build Amicus' a liiiitle higher than everyone else's, and then I'd just be working more! Are you trying to make me break a sweat?!

Personally, I didn't bother to answer the original post question because I'm simply just too dumb to fathom the nature of it. I was too busy eating paint chips. Someone ask me what paint chips taste like. That's a question I can answer!