What has America done for us in the UK?

BlueEyesInLevis

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Hey pp man and hobbit and the rest of you ungrateful sots in the UK...read this


March 04, 2005

What have the Americans ever done for us?
Gerard Baker


ONE OF MY favourite cinematic moments is the scene in Monty Python’s Life of Brian when Reg, aka John Cleese, the leader of the People’s Front of Judea, is trying to whip up anti-Roman sentiment among his team of slightly hesitant commandos.
“What have the Romans ever done for us?” he asks.

“Well, there’s the aqueduct,” somebody says, thoughtfully. “The sanitation,” says another. “Public order,” offers a third. Reg reluctantly acknowledges that there may have been a couple of benefits. But then steadily, and with increasing enthusiasm, his men reel off a litany of the good things the Romans have wrought with their occupation of the Holy Land.

By the time they’re finished they’re not so sure about the whole insurgency idea after all and an exasperated Reg tries to rally them: “All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?”

I can’t help but think of that scene as I watch the contortions of the anti-American hordes in Britain, Europe and even in the US itself in response to the remarkable events that are unfolding in the real Middle East today.

Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic of this blighted region has already shifted.

Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on America’s motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats but also to remake the Middle East. In the last month, the pace of progress has accelerated, and from Beirut to Kabul.

Confronted with this awkward turn of events, Reg’s angry successors are asking their cohorts: “What have the Americans ever done for us?” “Well, they did get rid of the Taleban in Afghanistan. ’Orrible bunch, they were.”

“All right, the Taleban, I grant you.”

“Then there was Iraq. Knocked off one of the nastiest dictators who ever lived and gave the whole nation a chance to pick its own rulers.”

“Yeah, all right. Fair enough. I didn’t like Saddam.”

“Libya gave up its nuclear weapons.”

“And then there’s Syria. Thousands of people on the streets of Lebanon. Syrians look like they’re pulling out.”

“I just heard Egypt’s going to hold free presidential elections for the first time. And Saudi Arabia just held elections too.”

“The Palestinians and the Israelis are talking again and they say there’s a real chance of peace this time.”


“All right, all right. But apart from liberating 50 million people in Iraq and Afghanistan, undermining dictatorships throughout the Arab world, spreading freedom and self-determination in the broader Middle East and moving the Palestinians and the Israelis towards a real chance of ending their centuries-long war, what have the Americans ever done for us?”
It’s too early, in fairness, to claim complete victory in the American-led struggle to bring peace through democratic transformation of the region. Despite the temptation to crow, we must remember that this is not Berlin 1989. There will surely be challenging times ahead in Iraq, Iran, in the West Bank and elsewhere. The enemies of democratic revolution — all the terrorists and Baathists, the sheikhs, the mullahs and the monarchs — are not going to give up without a fight.

But something very important is happening now, something that will be very hard to stop. And, although not all of it can be directly attributed to the US strategy in the region, can anyone seriously argue that it would have happened without it? Neither is it true, as some have tried to argue, that all of this is merely some unintended consequence of an immoral and misconceived war in Iraq.

It was always the express goal of the Bush Administration to change the regime in Baghdad, precisely because of the opportunities for democracy it would open up in the rest of the Arab world. George Bush understands the simple but historically demonstrable thesis that freedom is not only the most basic of human rights, but also the best way to ensure that nations do not go to war with each other.

In a speech one month before the start of the Iraq war in 2003, Mr Bush laid out the strategy: “The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life.”

I doubt that anybody, even the most prescient in the Bush Administration or at 10 Downing Street, thought the progress we are now seeing would come as quickly as it has.

But what was clear to the bold foreign policy strategists in Washington was that the status quo that existed before September 11 could no longer be tolerated. Much of the Muslim world represented decay and stagnation, and bred anger and resentment. That was the root cause of the terrorism that had attacked America with increasing ferocity between 1969 and 2001.

America’s critics craved stability in the Middle East. Don’t rock the boat, they said. But to the US this stability was that of the mass grave; the calm was the eerie quiet that precedes the detonation of the suicide bomb. The boat was holed and listing viciously.

As a foreign policy thinker close to the Administration put it to me, in the weeks before the Iraq war two years ago: “Shake it and see. That’s what we are going to do.” The US couldn’t be certain of the outcome, but it could be sure that whatever happened would be better than the status quo.

And so America, the revolutionary power, plunged in and shook the region to its foundations. And it is already liking what it sees.
 
Saddam wasn't a threat to us nor was he one of the worst dictator's ever.

Syria pulling troops out of Lebannon has nothing to do with the US and everything to do with Syria assassinating the political leader of the anti-syria movement which backfired horribly.

Any current possibilities for peace in the Israel/Palestinian conflict are due to Arafat dying and have nothing to do with any US actions or policies.
 
zipman said:
Saddam wasn't a threat to us nor was he one of the worst dictator's ever.

Syria pulling troops out of Lebannon has nothing to do with the US and everything to do with Syria assassinating the political leader of the anti-syria movement which backfired horribly.

Any current possibilities for peace in the Israel/Palestinian conflict are due to Arafat dying and have nothing to do with any US actions or policies.

You forgot to add that Reagan had NOTHING to do with the demise of the USSR.



All of which Im sure are revolting developments for you.
 
zipman said:
Syria pulling troops out of Lebannon has nothing to do with the US and everything to do with Syria assassinating the political leader of the anti-syria movement which backfired horribly.

There used to be 2 Bath Party republics...Iraq and Syria...the mainstays of the Pan Arab Movement.

The USA wiped one out and is sabre rattling about Iran and Syria...and you don't think Syria's pulling in its horns lately has anything to do with that?

Really?
 
what have the americans done for us?
hip hop
rap music
eminem
macdonalds
crack cocaine
kfc
michael jackson
dubya
watergate
billy ray cyrus
coke
mars bars
country music
jerry springer
jackie stallone
organised crime
peewee herman
john delorean
general motors
burger king
mtv
microsoft
oprah winfrey
windows me
the franklyn mint
starbucks
dallas
cnn
nfl
convenience food
walmart
drive in takeaways
political correctness
2 gulf wars
baskin robbins
vietnam
incorrect spelling and general abuse of the english language
ihop
have a nice day
pepsi
angel dust
titanic the movie
harley davidson
baseball
dr pepper
sara lee
the village people
do you want me to go on?
 
Lancecastor said:
There used to be 2 Bath Party republics...Iraq and Syria...the mainstays of the Pan Arab Movement.

The USA wiped one out and is sabre rattling about Iran and Syria...and you don't think Syria's pulling in its horns lately has anything to do with that?

Really?

No, I don't. While the Ba'ath power base has diminished in the middle east, the two biggest factors impacting the witdrawal of troops from Lebannon are the Syrian-backed assassination of a popular anti-Syrian political leader and the overwhelming pressure put on Syria by other Arab countries, most notably Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
 
Were the Americans supposed to do something for the UK?

Was garbage day changed or something?
 
BlueEyesInLevis said:
You forgot to add that Reagan had NOTHING to do with the demise of the USSR.



All of which Im sure are revolting developments for you.

What's the matter, didn't your PR press kit have any prepared responses for anyone who didn't buy all of the examples you posted.

Your inability to refute those points in an intelligent manner instead of trying to deflect the conversation to unrelated issues and inaccurate assumptions about how I feel about any of those developments says it all.
 
pabloback said:
what have the americans done for us?
organised crime
vietnam
incorrect spelling and general abuse of the english language
I see that you don't know much about history:

Organized crime (if you're alluding to the mob) existed in ITALY long before America.

America didn't give the world Vietnam... The country existed long before the war (which I'm sure is what you meant)... And other countries were invovled long before America was.

Incorrect spelling and abuse of the English language existed in England, Ireland, Scottland, and Australia long before America even existed.

Have a nice day.

:p
 
zipman said:
No, I don't. While the Ba'ath power base has diminished in the middle east, the two biggest factors impacting the witdrawal of troops from Lebannon are the Syrian-backed assassination of a popular anti-Syrian political leader and the overwhelming pressure put on Syria by other Arab countries, most notably Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

How do you know this to be true? You state these things as if they are facts.

But the fact is you're just some guy in New York who has formed opinions based on the opinions of others...as far as I know you weren't consulted by any of the leadership in any of the countries involved.

Right? (right)

So, you have a theory, based on opinion, that is based itself on other opinions and "news" reports.

I have an opinion as well, formed in a similar way, with alternate conclusions as to what's possibly in play over there.

My guess is it's all terribly complicated and there are lots of things which influence any government to do/not do any particular thing.

My best guess is that have the US military parked next door has something to do with everything going on in all the surrounding countries...and that it's a pretty good and safe guess at that.
 
cannot be bothered to read the article at this moment in time- however I believe the chief contribution of the US is a much nicer 'slang word for bottom' (ASS) as opposed to our saggy sounding slang word for 'bottom' (ARSE.)

Also, they gave us body fascism :p .
 
BlueEyesInLevis said:
Hey pp man and hobbit and the rest of you ungrateful sots in the UK...read this

With Iraq ending up with a Sh'i'te, Iranian leader; the Taleban strong on the ground in the countryside outside Kabul in Afghanistan; The Palestinian - Israeli talks taking place in an atmosphere of tension as Israel continues to expand its illegal settlements on the West Bank; Lybia giving up its nuclear capability because Ghadaffi's son (the heir apparant, western educated and more in line with western thinking than his dad) saw that was the way forward; Saudi's election being in a tiny district of a tiny town in a tiny part of Saudi and Syria's withdrawal from the Lebanon having more to do with a badly misfiring assassination attempt...

I'd say it's a bit too early for America or Britain to start preening themselves just yet. It's all surface gloss. Neither country has really given a solid base to any spread of democracy in the Region and though I would like to see a stable Middle East I think the author of the article has got a bit carried away with what he imagines is happening...

And this extract from the article gives the game away: "As a foreign policy thinker close to the Administration put it to me, in the weeks before the Iraq war two years ago: “Shake it and see. That’s what we are going to do.” The US couldn’t be certain of the outcome, but it could be sure that whatever happened would be better than the status quo."

Anything you have to 'shake and see' is a fairly unstable policy decision and it seems to me that the author is writing the article with a little silent heartfelt "whew" that so far no major uprising against the US (and the UK) has happened yet. Yet being the operative word.

Give it another 50-100 years and we'll see if the Middle East owes us a vote of gratitude or not...

ppman
 
Lancecastor said:
How do you know this to be true? You state these things as if they are facts.

But the fact is you're just some guy in New York who has formed opinions based on the opinions of others...as far as I know you weren't consulted by any of the leadership in any of the countries involved.

Right? (right)

So, you have a theory, based on opinion, that is based itself on other opinions and "news" reports.

I have an opinion as well, formed in a similar way, with alternate conclusions as to what's possibly in play over there.

My guess is it's all terribly complicated and there are lots of things which influence any government to do/not do any particular thing.

My best guess is that have the US military parked next door has something to do with everything going on in all the surrounding countries...and that it's a pretty good and safe guess at that.

That's right, it's my opinion. But it is based on a lot more than other people' opinions.

For starters, there have been demands made by the US for Syria to get out of Lebannon for a while including a UN resolution to do so. The Syrian response was non-committal at best. Then Rafiq Hariri, Lebanon's anti-syrian former prime minister was assassinated. Within days, the Lebanese people were defying government bans against protesting and Syria is under pressure by all arab countries to honor the taif agreement and leave Lebannon.

That seems like a much more direct cause then simply the presence of US troops in neighboring Iraq especially considering the fact that the Syrians haven't been models of cooperation with the US since the invasion of Iraq.
 
Lancecastor said:
How do you know this to be true? You state these things as if they are facts.

But the fact is you're just some guy in New York who has formed opinions based on the opinions of others...as far as I know you weren't consulted by any of the leadership in any of the countries involved.

Right? (right)

So, you have a theory, based on opinion, that is based itself on other opinions and "news" reports.

I have an opinion as well, formed in a similar way, with alternate conclusions as to what's possibly in play over there.

My guess is it's all terribly complicated and there are lots of things which influence any government to do/not do any particular thing.

My best guess is that have the US military parked next door has something to do with everything going on in all the surrounding countries...and that it's a pretty good and safe guess at that.


Lance, there is an excellent article HERE
that sums up the last 100 years of the Lebanon/Syria/Israel triangle by who I consider to be the most knowledgeable America on Lebanon affairs today, professor Juan Cole. The article documents a gothic labryinth of entanglements and backstabbing.

Essentially, though, it demonstrates that, insofar as the last 10 years or so goes, U.S. involvement in Syrian affairs, both internal and external has been minimal.
 
zipman said:
That's right, it's my opinion. But it is based on a lot more than other people' opinions.

You've been there and seen all these things firsthand?

Otherwise, it's opinion...even "news" reports are selective in scope, especially American "news".

You surely see my point, so I won't belabour it further.
 
Lancecastor said:
You've been there and seen all these things firsthand?

Otherwise, it's opinion...even "news" reports are selective in scope, especially American "news".

You surely see my point, so I won't belabour it further.

It's funny that you assume that I based this on American news when I didn't rely on that at all. You do realize that it's possible to get online news from most countries around the world, don't you?

While news reports certainly are selective in scope, let's look at the facts:
1) Tariq Al-Hariri was assassinated which caused a significant anti-syrian backlash in Lebannon
2) Within days, there were thousands of Lebanese protesting in the streets to get Syria out of Lebannon
3) Within days of that, the current administration resigned.
4) Syria announces that they are pulling out troops from Lebannon.

So either what do you think, that the assassination was faked and Al-Hariri is still alive or that the thousands of people protesting in Lebannon were conjured up using photoshop or that the current administration in Lebannon didn't really resign or that the announcement by Syria that they are withdrawing troops is really a disinformation ploy by the US?

Perhaps you should just stick to harrassing Intrigued when she posts here.
 
zipman said:
No, I don't. While the Ba'ath power base has diminished in the middle east, the two biggest factors impacting the witdrawal of troops from Lebannon are the Syrian-backed assassination of a popular anti-Syrian political leader and the overwhelming pressure put on Syria by other Arab countries, most notably Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

Zip, I would disagree with you on Syria. While the US is not responsible for Syrian withdrawl, I think the close proximity of US troops and an increasing anti-Syrian rhetoric from the Administration combined with the uprising in Lebanon and pressure from the Saudi's and Egyptians is the cause of the Syrian change of heart. The US has not caused it, but has had a bearing on this decision.
 
catfish said:
Zip, I would disagree with you on Syria. While the US is not responsible for Syrian withdrawl, I think the close proximity of US troops and an increasing anti-Syrian rhetoric from the Administration combined with the uprising in Lebanon and pressure from the Saudi's and Egyptians is the cause of the Syrian change of heart. The US has not caused it, but has had a bearing on this decision.

I'm not saying that the US presence isn't a factor at all, but that it isn't the main one. Consider the continuous reports we have seen about terrorists gaining entry to Iraq from Syria as an indication of how much US pressure has affected them. Add to that the fact that they pretty much ignored all US calls to leave Lebannon until after the upriing which was in response to the assassination of Al-Hariri.

I'm saying the assassination, the uprising and the actions of the other arab states was more of a factor than the US presence next door. Otherwise, Syria would have removed their troops long ago.
 
zipman said:
I'm not saying that the US presence isn't a factor at all, but that it isn't the main one. Consider the continuous reports we have seen about terrorists gaining entry to Iraq from Syria as an indication of how much US pressure has affected them. Add to that the fact that they pretty much ignored all US calls to leave Lebannon until after the upriing which was in response to the assassination of Al-Hariri.

I'm saying the assassination, the uprising and the actions of the other arab states was more of a factor than the US presence next door. Otherwise, Syria would have removed their troops long ago.

I believe so, generally, when there is a significant uprising of any kind, even military repression may be difficult- all of histories revolutions are a testament to that. Also, because Syria relies on other Middle Eastern countries for support against US threats, and also for trade, any chance of this support being withdrawn is much more provocative than the US's seemingly inevitable threats of violence.
 
Way to early to tell if thing we have done are going to work. If it does the world will be a better place, and so will the Middle East. I don't feel that England owes us a thing in this regard, because they have been with us all along. Also if it does work we will have closer ties to the region, something France, Germany, China, and Russia would not be real fond of. They have a vested economic and political interest in our efforts failing. Now that there is no more Soviet Union to worried about France & Germany can thumb there noses at us and there is nothing we can do about it. If the last few centuries are any indication those two countries will do anything they can to their benefit even if it fucks up the entire world. One only has to look at the state of Frances former colonies and their handling of them to see how their foreign policy works. Germany, well we all know their history.

I don't think England owes us a fucking thing we are partners remember?
 
zipman said:
I'm not saying that the US presence isn't a factor at all, but that it isn't the main one. Consider the continuous reports we have seen about terrorists gaining entry to Iraq from Syria as an indication of how much US pressure has affected them. Add to that the fact that they pretty much ignored all US calls to leave Lebannon until after the upriing which was in response to the assassination of Al-Hariri.

I'm saying the assassination, the uprising and the actions of the other arab states was more of a factor than the US presence next door. Otherwise, Syria would have removed their troops long ago.

I misunderstood you earlier. I thought your postition was that the US had nothing to do with the Syrian witdrawl. We agree, I think the Syrians were reluctant to put down the Lebanese "rebellion" with force due to the pressure applied by fellow Arab states and the worry that the US might intervene in Lebanon if the Syrians made a military move.
 
catfish said:
I misunderstood you earlier. I thought your postition was that the US had nothing to do with the Syrian witdrawl. We agree, I think the Syrians were reluctant to put down the Lebanese "rebellion" with force due to the pressure applied by fellow Arab states and the worry that the US might intervene in Lebanon if the Syrians made a military move.

To be honest, I think it was pretty minimal. GirlMidnite made some good point above and I even think the fear of another civil war in Lebannon was more of a factor than US sabre rattling.
 
Gerard Baker said:
George Bush understands the simple but historically demonstrable thesis that freedom is not only the most basic of human rights, but also the best way to ensure that nations do not go to war with each other.
See, here's where you lose me.

OK, sure, I grant most if not all of the whole wine, santitation, demise of tyrannical fucktards litany of positive outcomes, but I think it's a huge leap (dare I say, of faith?) from what can be observed ini the Middle East to asserting not only what Bush "understood" or undestands, but also to certitude about this lofty sounding platitude forming the basis of the determination to undertake what I'll broadly classify as "the military operations" in Iraq.

Further, the outcomes are not carved in stone, eh? Just as everywhere around the globe, while there are certainly events one can list, the situation is, in fact, a shifting and dynamic, volatile collection of potential decisions that reviewing world HISTORY suggests are likely to startle those who base optimistic forecasts on desired rather than documented events - and after all, the future is NOT documented.

Time will tell.
 
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