What happened to all of the doom and gloom economic threads?

[4est_4est_Gump]

A_J's corollary #11, “The New Age Liberal defines a fair share of taxes as, ‘When you pay your taxes, you have no more money left than anyone else has.’”

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Why Does the Good Life End?
Victor Davis Hanson
Pajamas Media

A look Back

People just don’t disappear. Look at Germany in 1946 or Athenians in 339 B.C. They continue, but their governments and cultures end. Aside from the dramatic military implosions of authoritarian or tribal societies — the destruction of Tenochtitlan, the end of Nazism, the collapse of the Soviet Union, the annexation of tribal Gaul — what brings consensual states to an end, or at least an end to the good life?

The city-states could not stop 30,000 Macedonians in a way — when far poorer and 150 year earlier — they had stopped 300,000 Persians descending on many of the same routes. The French Republic of 1939 had more tanks and troops on the Rhine than the Third Reich that was busy overrunning Poland. A poorer Britain fought differently at el-Alamein than it does now over Libya. A British battleship was once a sign of national pride; today a destroyer represents a billion pounds stolen from social services.

Give me

Redistribution of wealth rather than emphasis on its creation is surely a symptom of aging societies. Whether at Byzantium during the Nika Riots or in bread and circuses Rome, when the public expects government to provide security rather than the individual to become autonomous through a growing economy, then there grows a collective lethargy. I think that is the message of Juvenal’s savage satires about both mobs and the idle rich. Fourth-century Athenian literature is characterized by forensic law suits, as citizens sought to sue each other, or to sue the state for sustenance, or to fight over inheritances.

The subtext of Petronius’s Satyricon is an affluent, childless, often underemployed citizenry seeking inheritances and lampooning the productive classes that produce enough excess for the wily to get by just fine without working. Somewhere around 1985 in California I noticed that my students were hoping for a state job first, a federal job second, a municipal job third — and a private one last. Around 1990, suddenly two sorts of commercials were aired everywhere: how to join a law suit by calling a law firm’s 1-800 number or how to get a free power chair, scooter, or some other device by calling the 1-800 number of
a health care company that would do the paper work for Social Security on your behalf.

Regulate, not create

Why is it more moral for a federal bureaucrat in a state-supplied SUV to shut down an offshore oil rig on grounds that it is too dangerous for the environment than for a private individual to risk his own capital to find some sort of new fuel to power his government’s SUV fleet? All affluent societies believe that they are just too rich not to be able to afford another regulation, just one more moralizing indulgence, yet again an added entitlement. But as we see now in postmodern America, idle 250,000 acres of farmland for a tiny fish, shut down an entire oilfield, put off a new natural gas find in worry over possible environmental alteration, add a cent to the sales tax, mandate yet another prescription drug entitlement not funded, or offer yet another in-state tuition discount to an illegal alien — and the costs finally equate to an implosion as we see in Greece or California. And as we know from past collapses, a new entitlement in a matter of minutes becomes an institutionalized right whose withdrawal causes far more anguish than its prior nonexistence. Justinian learned that when he sought to cut the civil service and almost lost his throne.

...

We are good and therefore can act badly

The outsourcing of private morality to the state is a particularly modern affliction, but equally as pernicious. We witness the startling paradox that today’s private society is crasser, less honest, and more uncouth even as its government’s official morality stresses gender, race, class, and green ethical superiority. But just because the state now thankfully mandates disabled parking spaces does not mean that we honor a crippled relative more than in the past, or that our children are more likely to write a note of thanks to a grandparent’s gift. I can surely see an erosion in the public expression of manners and morality even as I sense our government is now more “fair” and “equal” than ever before.

Just because the state will sue you for the appearance of sexual harassment does not mean that leaving your laptop in a college university carrel means it is less likely to be stolen than, say, a wallet in 1955. The frightening worry is that the two are connected: the more the state steps in to to assure that we are cosmically moral, the more we assume we can relax and therefore become concretely immoral. Detroit is a symptom of that transition from family to state definitions of morality. Go to Athens today, and one can read high-sounding praises of the all-encompassing welfare state, and see all around private machinations to get out of taxes and boasts about getting a public job that requires no work and earns lots of pay.

When poverty is defined as relative want rather than existential need, states decay and societies decline. In the fifth century, Athenians were content to be paid to go to the theater; by the fourth, they were paid also to vote — even as they hired mercenaries to fight and forgot who won at Salamis, and why. Flash mobbing did not hit bulk food stores. The looters organized on Facebook through laptops and cell phones, not through organizing during soup kitchens and bread lines. Random assaults were not because of elemental poverty, but anger at not having exactly what appears on TV.

Obesity, not malnutrition, is the affliction at Wal-Mart. In our strange culture, that someone drives an overpriced BMW apparently means that our own Toyotas don’t have air conditioners or stereos. But that John Edwards or John Kerry or Al Gore has a huge house doesn’t mean that mine is inadequate — or the tract homes that sprout in my community for new arrivals from Mexico are too small.

Of course, the elite have responsibility to use their largess wisely and not turn into the Kardashians. But that a fifth of one percent of the taxpayers are finding ways not to pay at the income tax rate on their large incomes does not hurt the republic as much as 50% of the population paying no income tax at all. The latter noble sorts do not bother us as much, but their noncompliance bothers the foundations of our society far more than that of the stingy, but minuscule, number of grasping rich.

Lala land

Unreality is an especially disturbing symptom. When Jimmy Hoffa threatens the non-unionists, one imagines that Detroit is building better, safer, more reliable cars at a better price and has for decades. When Barack Obama urges the Black Caucus to march for equality, and adopts the cadences and pose of a 1960 civil rights leader, one would think the right wing in Florida just picked Bull Connor, not Herman Cain, as their straw poll winner. When the third-generation, hip spokesman for La Raza talks about inequality, one would think she herself just crossed the border from Oaxaca, forced to flee a benevolent Mexico to work in the pits of an American Mordor.

 

[koalabear]

Dow jumps on hopes for Europe

still no nope for the USA.

Updated: 09/26/2011 12:41 ET
DOW 10,917.77 +146.29

 

[koalabear]

jumping for europe seems to get tiring......

Updated: 09/26/2011 01:07 ET
DOW 10,861.77 +90.29

 

[mercury14]

I did not ever say that. You have assigned a false position to me and then went bat-guano crazy, again.

I wasn't even talking to you. I was talking to 4est_4est_Gump.

 

[mercury14]

You have assigned a false position to me

A_J's corollary #11, “The New Age Liberal defines a fair share of taxes as, ‘When you pay your taxes, you have no more money left than anyone else has.’”

When we all have the same stuff, then life will be fair.

Seems it's perfectly fine for you to assign false positions to other though. Doing it through yet another alt doesn't make it okay you know.

 

[mercury14]

Insane proposed Democrat tax cuts:

Boehner, Cantor, and McConnell have long-suggested a temporary employer-side payroll tax cut. How come you never called them insane?

3). To pay for all of this new "spending" (after all, all Republican tax cuts are referred to as new spending). we'll raise taxes on the rich and close all those loopholes that were yesterday's stimulus, so that we can create some more stimulus spending (tomorrow's loop holes).

WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE ABOUT THAT PLAN???

1) Please show proof that this is being payed for by loopholes the stimulus created. Or are you just making things up again?

2) So Obama wants to pay for something and that's bad? Guess that's to be expected from a Republican who thinks these things shouldn't be paid for:

$1 Trillion for Medicare Part-D
$4 Trillion commitment for two wars
$1.7 Trillion for the Bush tax cuts
-----
$6.7 Trillion in total unpaid-for spending That's almost 50% of the value of the entire national debt just right there.

Your narrative says that we don't need to be worried about paying for this $6.7 trillion that Republicans just spent. What we need to be worried about is Obama's $700 billion in stimulus spending or that $400 billion jobs bill that's going to be paid for. Never mind that on a policy level Obama is spending only a tiny fraction of what the previous Republican administration did - that's not the narrative you want to hear.

What you're saying is that government spending is only a problem when Democrats are in power.

 

[mercury14]

Dow surges 2.52%. Where are the chuckleheads with the daily market update?

 

[Sean Renaud]

Dow surges 2.52%. Where are the chuckleheads with the daily market update?

The market update only happens if it goes down. You know that.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

As long as U_D gets his neverending thread, the DJIA could do anything.

 

[koalabear]

Dow surges 2.52%. Where are the chuckleheads with the daily market update?

The market update only happens if it goes down. You know that.

DOW crosses the magic 1100 barrier, oh wait, that's 1200, MORONS.

Stay tuned for more updates.

 

[Sean Renaud]

DOW crosses the magic 1100 barrier, oh wait, that's 1200, MORONS.

Stay tuned for more updates.

Stocks were below 1100! MORON.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

As long as U_D gets his neverending thread, the DJIA could do anything.

My Neverending thread?

Compared to the doom and gloomer's here I've barely posted at all.
http://forum.literotica.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=673174
It's been over two years, the Op is still very much true, and the usual suspects are still waiting for the failure that's just around the corner.. No, the next corner.. No wait, maybe the next..

Tomorrow! Tomorrow! I love ya! Tomorrow! you're always a day away!

 

[IrezumiKiss]

My Neverending thread?

Compared to the doom and gloomer's here I've barely posted at all.
http://forum.literotica.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=673174
It's been over two years, the Op is still very much true, and the usual suspects are still waiting for the failure that's just around the corner.. No, the next corner.. No wait, maybe the next..

Tomorrow! Tomorrow! I love ya! Tomorrow! you're always a day away!

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/7/2011/09/792cddbf1819aad71a1d89653029079c/original.gif

 

[Wat_Tyler]

My Neverending thread?

Yours is the OP. You typed it, you posted it. It yours, fair and square.

 

[mercury14]

Yours is the OP. You typed it, you posted it. It yours, fair and square.

To be fair he lost control of it a long time ago.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Yours is the OP. You typed it, you posted it. It yours, fair and square.

I stated a few simple facts that still hold true no matter how many thousands of posts the Doom and Gloom crowd floods the thread with. The top poster to the thread in particular has made it a daily effort, sometimes posting over and again in rapid succession, trying to disprove the OP.

I can't be held responsible for their two year descent into irrational cheerleading for the collapse and economic failure of these Great United States of America.

*American Flag waving in the background*

I and those like me have spent the better part of two years pointing out the strengths of the American way, pointing out the constant obstruction of those who hold party, desire for political power, and ideology over the success of our country. Those who held the entire world's economy for ransom in a fit of political pique which contributed directly to our credit rating being downgraded which will lead to billions in increased interest over the course of the next decade.

"Conservatives" in power have quite literally cut off their own nose to spite their face in catering to the insane ramblings of the minority Tea-Party (edit) and Litbertarians (not a typo)..

 

[Wat_Tyler]

To be fair he lost control of it a long time ago.

Like that was even possible.

I stated a few simple facts that still hold true no matter how many thousands of posts the Doom and Gloom crowd floods the thread with. The top poster to the thread in particular has made it a daily effort, sometimes posting over and again in rapid succession, trying to disprove the OP.

I can't be held responsible for their two year descent into irrational cheerleading for the collapse and economic failure of these Great United States of America.

*American Flag waving in the background*

I and those like me have spent the better part of two years pointing out the strengths of the American way, pointing out the constant obstruction of those who hold party, desire for political power, and ideology over the success of our country. Those who held the entire world's economy for ransom in a fit of political pique which contributed directly to our credit rating being downgraded which will lead to billions in increased interest over the course of the next decade.

"Conservatives" in power have quite literally cut off their own nose to spite their face in catering to the insane ramblings of the minority Tea-Party (edit) and Litbertarians (not a typo)..

"Yeah" would have sufficed.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

"Yeah" would have sufficed.

But wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying.

 

[RobDownSouth]

As long as U_D gets his neverending thread, the DJIA could do anything.

Thanks for the laugh.

Lit's Axis of Weasels (AJ, Vetty, Busybody and Koalabore) together have almost 10 times as many posts on this thread than U_D does (around 4000 to UD's 450),but in your mind it's still "UD's thread".

 

[RightField]

Let me see if I have this straight.

The democrats have increased spending dramatically and have incurred huge deficits as a result. They've spend the money irresponsibly and in ways that have mostly benefitted their supporters such as the unions and campaign contributors like Solyndra and...this additional spending has done nothing good for the country and as a result, we're still mired in a devistatingly bad economy with more than 14 million out of work.

Now, the bill is coming due and instead of recognizing that their cronyism and irresponsible spending hasn't done any good and trimming spending significantly, they say "give me more money for a re-do" and, by the way, we want to pay for all this wasteful spending by increasing taxes significantly on the people who responsibly argued against this folly of spending.

I say "nuts" to additional taxes, trim spending first and then we'll talk.

For resisting additional taxes, you licentious libs say I'm unpatriotic. Again, I say "nuts" and will vote against any increase in taxes....mostly because an increase in taxes will plunge the country further into economic doldrums.

We'd be in a different situation if you'd first said "I want to increase spending significantly and so I want to increase taxes to pay for it up front" and we'd had a national debate about whether this is the direction we want to take as a nation.

We'd have had a different situation also if the additional spending had been done wisely and in a way that would have boosted the economy. We'd not be having this conversation if the money had been spent wisely and unemployment was at 5%.

Instead, the libs spent wildly and irresponsibly (some might say in a way that invites a grand jury investigation) and now want to increase taxes after the money's already been spend (foolishly). Nuts.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

But wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying.

For you, maybe.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

Thanks for the laugh.

Lit's Axis of Weasels (AJ, Vetty, Busybody and Koalabore) together have almost 10 times as many posts on this thread than U_D does (around 4000 to UD's 450),but in your mind it's still "UD's thread".

Whose name is on it?


I own a copy of The Brothers Karamazov. I even paid for it. I sure as Hell didn't write it. My name isn't on the cover.


And you suffer from Sour Grapes because he thought of it and you didn't.

 

[koalabear]

Stocks were below 1100! MORON.

No shit, then I shouldn't have said they crossed 11, MORON ALT.

 

[koalabear]

The maintenance boy has the most posts by far, you just have to count the voices in his fat head too.