What Counts in a Story...

[FantasyXY]

How many Lit pages do you prefer to see in a story or chapter?

I am strictly a two page or less kind of guy.

When Reading Lit Stories:
If a short story is much longer than two pages, I find that the story often wanders off topic a bit and can be hard to follow. The same goes for chapters. I can easily track my way through almost any story that is two pages or less (barring those that are just too poorly written to read). I even find myself quite often checking page counts before I start reading something.

When Writing Lit Stories:
I have to assume that on average people have about the same ridiculous attention span that I do. So far, I've only posted short stories and always try to keep them two pages or under. I have some longer stories in the works and I am keeping my chapters equally as short. Hell, my attention span won't allow me to keep track if I try to write longer stuff.

Also when I am writing I find that when one of my stories/chapters goes too long, I have been too usually verbose about something. I prefer to let the reader fill in many of the details from their own experiences. For example: Instead of describing every part of a woman in some flowery poetic terms, I just like to say something like "she was a slightly chubby middle aged brunette". That way the reader can fill in a woman they know that could fit into the story. To me, less verbose is a good writing tool.

If I haven't been too verbose, what having too many pages points out to me is that I have probably have wandered away from the general idea that defines the story or chapter.

About Comments and Votes:
I've seen a fair number of comments in different threads that say views are high, but comments and votes are really low. I have always wondered if stories that are longer get abandoned by readers more often.

So What Do You Do?
I like to hear others views on story/chapter length for both what you have read on Lit, and what you have/are writing.

 

[PennLady]

How many Lit pages do you prefer to see in a story or chapter?

I am strictly a two page or less kind of guy.

I prefer whatever the author thinks they need to tell the story. If two pages does it, grat. However, I usually don't read stories longer than about four Lit pages, or 10k words, just because I don't have the time. I love to read long(er) stories, really, I just can't.

When Reading Lit Stories:
If a short story is much longer than two pages, I find that the story often wanders off topic a bit and can be hard to follow. The same goes for chapters. I can easily track my way through almost any story that is two pages or less (barring those that are just too poorly written to read). I even find myself quite often checking page counts before I start reading something.

Of course this happens, but not always. But if you simply prefer brief stories, then you do.

When Writing Lit Stories:
I have to assume that on average people have about the same ridiculous attention span that I do. So far, I've only posted short stories and always try to keep them two pages or under. I have some longer stories in the works and I am keeping my chapters equally as short. Hell, my attention span won't allow me to keep track if I try to write longer stuff.

I also try to post in blocks of roughly 10k, which is what I like to read in, but it depends. I'll go shorter or longer depending on what makes sense for the story.

Also when I am writing I find that when one of my stories/chapters goes too long, I have been too usually verbose about something. I prefer to let the reader fill in many of the details from their own experiences. For example: Instead of describing every part of a woman in some flowery poetic terms, I just like to say something like "she was a slightly chubby middle aged brunette". That way the reader can fill in a woman they know that could fit into the story. To me, less verbose is a good writing tool.

I do this myself, but it's not a matter of wanting to use fewer words, necessarily. I'm just not great at describing physical features, so I like to give a framework and let the reader go from there. But fewer words doesn't necessarily mean "good writing."

About Comments and Votes:
I've seen a fair number of comments in different threads that say views are high, but comments and votes are really low. I have always wondered if stories that are longer get abandoned by readers more often.

I believe I've read that the views total is somewhat skewed -- people may click once, not like it and click off, but it counts as a view even though they haven't read your story. Plus there are bots and such. Longer stories may end up with fewer readers, but I think it depends on a lot of factors, not least of which is how long it takes the author to post chapters if they don't have them all ready to go at once.

 

[Handley_Page]

I am strictly a two page or less kind of guy.

When Reading Lit Stories:
If a short story is much longer than two pages, I find that the story often wanders off topic a bit and can be hard to follow. The same goes for chapters. I can easily track my way through almost any story that is two pages or less (barring those that are just too poorly written to read). I even find myself quite often checking page counts before I start reading something.

If the story grabs me and demands my attention (as a well-written story should), I have to make sure of my eye drops, because anything longer than about 5 lit pages makes my eyes itch with drying out.
To my mind 3 lit pages is about right; in a much shorter length, it's either a straight stroker or it's lost!

 

[Hypoxia]

I have no page-count preference. If the story sucks me in, I don't care how long it is. If it doesn't, brevity doesn't redeem it. And I'll whip through a good 10-pager faster than a bad 3-pager.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Bottom line: An interesting story beats a well written story and a well written story beats a dull tale. So make your wares interesting.

I read a tale by Lindsay Lohan this morning. Its actually better sex than most LIT efforts. Its interesting because it comes across as the real deal. Its not glamorous or sexy. She had just showered, her hair was wet and full of conditioner, no make up on, a kinda cute guy got in her room by mistake, and Bob's your uncle. Lohan's writing isn't excellent but her story is.

 

[Gunnlaug]

I do this myself, but it's not a matter of wanting to use fewer words, necessarily. I'm just not great at describing physical features, so I like to give a framework and let the reader go from there. But fewer words doesn't necessarily mean "good writing."

This feels familiar. In short, I hate description and try to keep it to the minimum, letting the reader fill in the details. I prefer to write action, which I am well aware comes from the relatively large amount of script-writing I do (nothing that has been made yet, but things are in 'development hell'). Description really is at a minimum in scripts; rather as I like the reader to fill in details, in film the director fills in the details. So, an author may describe the layout, the age, the effect of light, on a medieval village. The script-writer just says 'Scene x - Medieval Village, exterior, day' and is done with it.

Part of the reason that I am submitting stories here is to try and force myself to think in 'prose' terms rather than 'film' terms, but even so I find myself wanting to keep description to a minimum. I have looked back at some of my favourite authors and noted that many (most) of them don't go overboard on description, allowing me to picture my own details. I had a big discussion with Mrs Gunnlaug about this last night. We agreed that I am focussed on the action whereas she wants the description. I told her that IMO it means she has a less developed imagination. She wasn't best pleased

 

[AMoveableBeast]

I think descriptions are quite important. Vivid details sing. Without vivid details, Darth Vader becomes a tall guy, with an odd voice, wearing a breathing apparatus--as opposed to a towering figure, more machine than man, with buttons imbedded into armor covered by a dark cape and capped by a glossy black helmet, from which emanated a commanding voice that was punctuated by sinister, rasping blast of air upon each exhilation.

One of those characters makes a compelling villain, the other sounds like he lives in a nursing home.

 

[Hypoxia]

My goal: Clarity, and reaction. My task: Paint word-pictures for readers. The details needn't be elaborate -- broad brush-strokes accomplish much -- but I want the reader to 'see' what I saw when writing the tale. Writing, I try to visualize a story as if it were cinema, and then transcribe it. Active editing, I try to visualize what the author (maybe myself!) saw, and fill in holes and details while chopping away the superfluous.

Some details are irrelevant. Some add spice, like chocolate freckles and a Panza Verde accent (from Antigua Guatemala). Some are absolutely necessary for a story to work, like a shared birthmark that identifies two strangers as long-lost identical twins. And IMHO some are just overkill, like most specifications of bra sizes -- unless the bust size is vital to the tale (like in noting changes in her body).

What counts in a story? Adapting a rule of photography, I'll say: Nail the plot; everything else can be fixed in editing. So, what counts are 1) a compelling plot, 2) enough action to grab the reader's interest, and 3) enough detail that the reader sees the story.

And then we sprinkle some magic dust on it and everything works out well. Right.

 

[Serafina1210]

In some fifteen submissions, I've never written anything more than two screens long.

For description, I try to figure out what the reader needs to know and give that. I'm working on a cage right now. Approximate dimensions are important. A blowjob will be given through the bars, so spacing is significant. I'm not bothering with color, though its being metal adds something.

 

[SecondCircle]

Hmm. Generally? I like stuff that can be read in one sitting because of time and all. But I used to do this thing where I looked at the bottom of the first page on Lit stories to see how many pages it was.

I stopped that.

Reason being, I lost sight of why I read stuff to begin with. I just wanna read stuff that is good or appeals to my tastes. Reading contest stories here kinda switched my approach. In wanting to be fair and trying to read all of the stories, I'd read 2 pagers, 5 pagers, even twelve. What I found is that I made myself a slave to convenience by only reading shorter works, and I'd be missing some really great stuff.

In a few of the contests, FAWC included, I'd do my little scroll and see a story was like 12 pages long. At which point I'm thinking "sheesh, this'll take a while." But I wanted to read it and give it a whirl. Next thing you know, I'm ignoring shit in real life because I can't put the story down. The story would sink its hooks into me and pull. I can remember recently an 11 or 12 pager that I read in one sitting. Thought I'd have to break it up in chunks... but I couldn't. The fucking story was so good, I was trapped in that world.

That is powerful. That... is why I read in the first place. Not for convenience (anymore) but for that story I can't put down.

Now that's not knocking anybody that reads the shorter ones or prefers them better for whatever reason. I'm just explaining my personal take on it. And there is logic to the idea of what a short story really is. (It can be read in one sitting).

...But to that logic, I now have to turn and ask... what is one sitting to a story that keeps you floored?

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Great response, SecondC. Absolutely.

 

[SecondCircle]

Describing things in stories? I think like with anything, moderation and good judgment apply here.

I am all for letting readers use their own imagination. It's the fundamental idea behind "show don't tell". It would get boring quick if you're constantly reading descriptions of every last little thing in a story. I have seen the insides of many houses. I don't need a blueprint of John's house for you to tell me he walked to the kitchen. I don't need you to describe her labia in detail. I certainly don't need a head to toe description of a person. That sort of thing is actually bland and uncreative. Give me the highlights and move on.

When we describe every aspect of everything, we rob it's mystery. There's nothing to explore. Furthermore, it doesn't leave much for the imagination. After all, your pretty blonde is not my pretty blonde. Your idea of a "sexy dress" may not align with mine when it comes to the fine details.

Now let's go to the other end of the spectrum....

Description is awesome where it's needed. I myself fucking love to describe things. But I don't just describe anything. Some things in a story, be it a unique character, a particular scene, a crucial emotion... need to be described. Because let's face it. We can't leave everything to the reader's imagination. (If we did that, well we wouldn't be writing stories would we?)

You've never been to Mr. Tibbords basement, never seen the freak show and the mind bending collectables he has hidden away... especially not the thing in his freezer. You've seen women like Tonya, but not this woman. You just can't visualize an individual like her. She's not just "a tall brunette with boobs" she's a fucking man eater, a ex bikers wife, a tat'd vixen that has no business in a quiet subdivision. You've never walked into the twenty stories of sin at Club Elysium, and seen the raging abysmal dance floor below and the heavenly glow of the great chandeliers hundreds of feet above your head.

It is my opinion that we should not describe every mundane detail, but not all can be simply "imagined". Else our stories fall to uninteresting one liners like "Mr. Tibbord had a bunch of freak show junk in his basement", or "Tonya was tall and middle aged." Or even "it was a club".

I suppose I could describe a tornado as "really windy n stuff." But that's empty and uninteresting. I call it "skeletal" writing. The basics are there. Great grammar. Good use of POV and dialogue tags. But that's all it becomes. A term paper void of emotion.

Put me there. I want to stare up in awe at the sheer size and force of that fucking whirlwind. I want to be blown to my feet by its might. I DONT want you describe the make and model of the car it just tossed into the house next door. I DON'T want to know what kind of shoes Bob was wearing as he ran from that tornado (unless it was heels. That would be relevant as it's incredibly hard to run from tornadoes in heels). Describe what is needed. Not "skeletal" nor "engorged".

Come to think of it, I might like "show and tell" better.

 

[StrangeLife]

The characters are my first priority in a story.

In order to pique my interest a story must have characters I am interested in reading about and they have to consistently act "in character." In other words, the story should be character-driven. When I discover a plot-driven story (one where the characters are made to act in illogical ways in order to fit the story line) I usually drop out right away.


If the characters are interesting, the rest doesn't matter much.

 

[FantasyXY]

Great replies Circle...

You are right about writers needing to ensure that descriptions are not too thin. In my original post I grossly understated the woman's description to make a point. Unless it calls for it, I rarely make descriptions that thin in my stories.

However, in the past I did have a tendency to go too far with my descriptions. I've worked hard to get myself out of that mode, and at times I may have gone a bit too far in my efforts, making my descriptions a bit too thin. In finding the right balance I somehow seem to gravitate back towards being too verbose, at least in my first drafts. At some point in each story I'm working on I end up telling myself, "Okay chatty bastard, time to go back and tighten this thing up." Self limiting my page count seems to help me here.

One thing I like to do these days is start out with a thin base description like the one in my post, then tease out the additional needed details as I walk the reader through the story.

A quick, albeit lame, example:
I was lucky to find a place to sit with so many people waiting for a table in the restaurant. Even with a place at the bar seating was tight, and the chubby brunette next to me couldn't stop squirming as she flirted with me. Her flirts seemed to be just for fun, and looking back they were pretty harmless. For some odd reason I found myself flirting back, trying desperately to keep her interest, even thought she was obviously married and easily 10 years older than I am. It had to be her voice. That smooth sexy voice of hers grabbed every part of my body and made me feel every word.

There was no way I should have been attracted to this older, overweight woman. Her choice of clothing, the way she wore her hair, even her sparse use of makeup, all loudly screamed suburban mom, yet somehow I found myself drawn to her.

The more she flirted with me the more I flirted back. She just kept at it, opening up to me, touching me, taunting me with that voice, and captivating me with her deep dark eyes and pretty smile.


Because I use this method, I can get carried away when I write and be too verbose. To write this I didn't need to describe the bar, but sometimes I would. I didn't need to describe what made her clothing look so suburban mom, but sometimes I would. I didn't even need to tell the color of her eyes, her bra size or how her lipstick looked... You get the point.

All too often when I try to read a longer piece I end up trying to figure out just what a 32C looks like on a 6 foot tall woman with long but not too long hair that looks like golden sunshine and lipstick the color of a melon someone once ate as the main character compares her ass to some sort of fruit. Oh, and she has nipples, yeah big nipples, and she wears a tank top with no bra but loves the lacy feel of lingerie, especially when she is out without her husband... Bla Bla Bla... I just get lost!!

So... Considering the general story quality posted on Lit, I still can't make myself read any story/chapter that goes more than two to three pages. I'm sure that this has something to do with the blocks of time I can dedicate to reading, but it also has to a lot do with writing quality. I know there are some very well written stories out there that I am sure I would easily get lost in. Those stories are few and far between and really hard to find. Finding ones that have the subject matter I tend to enjoy are nearly impossible to find.

 

[Privates1stClass]

There's a lot to be said for two- to three-page stories. They're brief enough to read in a short period of time. However, they remind me of "quickies." Sometimes, you'd like a story that lasts longer--like foreplay, particularly when it's good.

Lit has many stories over three pages, and if you restrict your reading to three pages, you'll miss out on many excellent stories. If the story is good, and you enjoy it, bookmark it and pick it up later when you have time.

I'd rather read a good eight-pager than four so-so two-pager's. When I read a story, I want a fascinating plot, interesting characters, and an appealing style. It should be believable (no 12-inch cocks or 44-EE boobs), and don't forget that decent grammar and spelling are prerequisites.

 

[SecondCircle]

All good thoughts.

And again, none of what I posted is meant to knock or discredit those that enjoy shorter works, or read them because of time. Believe me I am the same way much of the time.

To your point fantasy, I'm a very wordy bastard myself. I do often need to reel in my descriptions sometimes, and in doing so I sometimes write stuff that's too "skeletal".

I think what's important is to survey the landscape of writing and all its "rules" and pick the path that's most fitting for you. Different takes and styles intrigue the hell outta me. Take no one path but explore and try to lesrn as much as I can. Sometimes, I'm taken too literally in my essays of thought (not by anyone on this thread). If I say "I like green" and someone says "no red is the way to go. Here's how I do red."

For some reason this difference interests me. I wanna know "hmm, why red? What can red do? How might I use red? Why does a person pick red?"

Not that I intend to knock red. I just want to discuss it to understand it better.

If uh... if that makes any sense at all.

Long stories or short, description or obscurity with intent, it's all right. And wrong.

 

[Gunnlaug]

I think descriptions are quite important. Vivid details sing. Without vivid details, Darth Vader becomes a tall guy, with an odd voice, wearing a breathing apparatus--as opposed to a towering figure, more machine than man, with buttons imbedded into armor covered by a dark cape and capped by a glossy black helmet, from which emanated a commanding voice that was punctuated by sinister, rasping blast of air upon each exhilation.

One of those characters makes a compelling villain, the other sounds like he lives in a nursing home.

I wouldn't want to suggest that details and descriptions are all terrible and never to be used. The example you give highlights the times when description is vital. The problem comes when everything is being described. A particular bugbear for me here is the amount of description that sometimes goes into a (female, usually) protagonist. Not saying that the odd details don't enliven things, but often it's the way they are introduced; a paragraph including everything from which side her hair is parted all the way down to her shoe size. When perhaps a third of these details are included and are related to how someone feels, or what they notice about her, then it becomes a lot more interesting. TBH, if I read about another bra size I think I'll scream

 

[Hypoxia]

I think what's important is to survey the landscape of writing and all its "rules" and pick the path that's most fitting for you.

Rules are like technical standards or biblical injunctions -- we have so many to choose from!

The military has a standard called The Book. To have a nice safe military career, do everything By The Book. If you do something that ain't in The Book, and you fail, you're fucked. If you succeed... your ploy goes into The Book, and everybody in the future has to do it By The Book i.e. your way.

We have literary rules, conventions. To have a nice safe literary career, follow convention. If you do something experimental, and you fail... maybe you're fucked, maybe not. But if you succeed, like Shakespeare introducing zillions of new words and phrases into the language, then YOU become the convention.

It helps to know rules before breaking them. Any dumbass can improvise. A bit of mastery is required to improvise WELL.

 

[FantasyXY]

I just abandoned reading two short stories. One was a two pager and the other was three. Each story was fairly well written; good sentence structure, and decent paragraph construction.

After reading the posts in the thread I thought I should look at these stories and decide why I abandoned them. The reason I stopped reading both stories was for the same reason.

It turns out that both stories had several paragraphs describing things I didn't need to know. Each story would have been a complete story even if all of this extra crap were just deleted.

I probably could have skimmed of these extra parts and moved on, but both stories also had something that I just can't read through. That is dialog for the sake of adding dialog to a story. Like adding paragraphs about shit that just doesn't matter, additional dialog totally kills my ability to follow a story.

In both cases it looked to me as if each author just added a bunch of stuff to their stories to make them longer.

So I mentally scanned through both of these stories and wiped out everything I thought didn't fit. Turns out, both stories could have been told in a single page.

As an added note, if each of these authors had taken the concept of their stories and made the scenario into a subplot in a larger story, they probably would have had something, of course if they left out the extra crap.

I know I am doing a lot of bitching about other peoples stories here, and I know my writing pretty much sucks, but my gawd I hope my work isn't like these two stories...

 

[Bramblethorn]

I wouldn't want to suggest that details and descriptions are all terrible and never to be used. The example you give highlights the times when description is vital. The problem comes when everything is being described. A particular bugbear for me here is the amount of description that sometimes goes into a (female, usually) protagonist. Not saying that the odd details don't enliven things, but often it's the way they are introduced; a paragraph including everything from which side her hair is parted all the way down to her shoe size. When perhaps a third of these details are included and are related to how someone feels, or what they notice about her, then it becomes a lot more interesting. TBH, if I read about another bra size I think I'll scream

Yeah, for characters I like relevant description - usually that's the stuff that tells me something about who they are as a person. Blonde? Would the story be any different if she was a brunette? Probably not. OTOH, if she works at a conservative legal firm but has a green mohawk, that's worth knowing. Cup size? Pretty much never.

Answering the original question: about 3-4 pages is usually the sweet spot for me.

If a story's shorter than 3 pages it usually leaves me unsatisfied - I like to know who people are before they have sex, I like a bit of a story, and it's hard to achieve that in 2 pages.

If I get to the bottom of the first page and see there are another half-dozen pages to go... unless the first page really grabbed me, I'll probably stop at that point. If it's only 3-4 pages I'm more likely to give it the benefit of the doubt and keep reading, because if it doesn't come good I haven't wasted too much time.

 

[Hypoxia]

The characters are my first priority in a story.

In order to pique my interest a story must have characters I am interested in reading about and they have to consistently act "in character." In other words, the story should be character-driven. When I discover a plot-driven story (one where the characters are made to act in illogical ways in order to fit the story line) I usually drop out right away.

If the characters are interesting, the rest doesn't matter much.

A plot that forces characters into contortions to fit the storyline is a BAD plot. Or a satire. I did that with THE PORNOMANCER. The characters are cartoons; the plot is a farce. It's all a joke, folks.

Otherwise, characters write my stories. I devise their personalities and give them a realm to play in, then set them loose. I may have a few waypoints for them to hit -- like, someone is gonna cheat, and someone else is gonna die -- then I sit back and see how they get to and from those points. The stories are definitely driven by the characters. I merely transcribe.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

She smiled and said, "Why, I'm thirty-nine."

The prominent blue veins, and brown spots, on her hands said, "She's lying."

 

[SamScribble]

The characters are my first priority in a story.

In order to pique my interest a story must have characters I am interested in reading about and they have to consistently act "in character." In other words, the story should be character-driven. When I discover a plot-driven story (one where the characters are made to act in illogical ways in order to fit the story line) I usually drop out right away.

If the characters are interesting, the rest doesn't matter much.

You are right about the characters being important. If I’m reading a story, I want the characters to be interesting and believable. I want to be able to ‘see’ them. But I also want a story that has me asking: ‘What happens next?’ If I don’t care what happens next, I’m probably not going to keep reading.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'm a prospector for good writing and invest many hours looking for quality. My standards are simple: The best I don't wanna put down to eat or sleep or nuthin. Next best are the books I wanna read to the end when its convenient. And last are all the others. My latest 1st tier find is a Scot named Philip Kerr. A good 2nd tier writer is a black named Gar Anthony Haywood. Just found an American named Stona Fitch to check out.

 

[FantasyXY]

Yeah, for characters I like relevant description - usually that's the stuff that tells me something about who they are as a person. Blonde? Would the story be any different if she was a brunette? Probably not. OTOH, if she works at a conservative legal firm but has a green mohawk, that's worth knowing. Cup size? Pretty much never.

Answering the original question: about 3-4 pages is usually the sweet spot for me.

If a story's shorter than 3 pages it usually leaves me unsatisfied - I like to know who people are before they have sex, I like a bit of a story, and it's hard to achieve that in 2 pages.

If I get to the bottom of the first page and see there are another half-dozen pages to go... unless the first page really grabbed me, I'll probably stop at that point. If it's only 3-4 pages I'm more likely to give it the benefit of the doubt and keep reading, because if it doesn't come good I haven't wasted too much time.

Thanks for the direct answer to the number of pages question. I appreciate that.

One thing I have noticed is that simply describing a woman by her hair color alone can indicate that the man in the story does not know this woman and is seeing/meeting her for the first time. Men tend to initially categorize woman they don't know by hair color, size, age, etc. So simply saying someone is a thin redhead can be a good tool to first introduce a character. I find this most effective after the main character has already been established.

Is there something that women typically use to categorize men?