West Wing

[Flagg]

I saw it last night for the first time. At first I was impressed - relatively famous people (Rob Lowe - where the hell has he been since his cameo in Austin Powers), references to sex, a little bit of swearing. But holy moses on fire (where the hell did I get that expression from?) talk about sickening!

The president and all his men are the most humane, moral, all round great guys you've ever seen! WTF?!

Don't you have political satire? What a wasted opportunity to produce something with substance and controversy. Oh well.

 

[Madame Pandora]

Flagg,

I disagree with you entirely.

Aaron Sorkin is GIFTED with the ability to write dialog at a level beyond any other television show I’ve ever seen. He infiltrates his plot lines with fascinating little-known truths and quirky character traits. And his characters TALK the way normal, educated, witty people talk. True, from time to time he gets a bit over the top, but for the most part, he stays realistic in his characterizations. The only problem is, he has kept his cast pretty innocent in terms of their careers. For the most part, IRL, these people would be more than just a shade more jaded than they are. But, the characters, like the show itself, are founded hope and idealism. The West Wing is a fairy tale. And fuck it, I’ve got the news to smack me with reality. I’d like to have a splash of intelligent fairy tale in my escapism, thank you.

I watched the first episode COMPLETELY ready to snicker. And I begrudgingly enjoyed it. For one thing, there is the craft of each episode alone. They are often directed with a great deal of flair for TV (only Homicide and X Files ever really put any emphasis on DIRECTING episodes that I’ve seen). So, even if there was nothing else of merit, the teleplays and the directing continually delight me.

Then there’s the acting. Absolutely incredible. Beyond compare on anything I’ve ever seen in TV. The cast is just amazing. They’ve got all their characters nailed and they exhibit a style that can’t be matched IMHO. I mean, how ROB LOWE is able to carry off his kind of “polished professional, but still a schoolboy” routine to such a level where I FORGET that it’s ROB LOWE blows my mind. I am WEEKLY impressed with not only the regular cast, but the guest actors. And I’m in LOVE with Richard Schiff, but I have a feeling that’s because of the lines Aaron Sorkin puts in his mouth. Still can’t beat the delivery, though.

As for the plots – yeah they pull some punches, and it gets a bit sappy here and there. But it is a fairy tale. It is the people we WANT in these positions, not necessarily the reality of the situation – although Sorkin does try to inject as much reality as he can. I have the ugly realism to face. I like imagining it isn’t the case. And, yes, it is very American slanted and pro-USA. It’s called THE WEST WING. It also takes its fair number of shots at us.

I don’t know what episode you saw, but last week’s episode DID put the ethics of the president in question. It had the characters struggling with very grave ethical issues. And, IMHO, it had them on the wrong side of the issue. Often, the characters of the show come up against issues of ethics. The main difference between reality and the characters, I think, is that with these people, their sense of conscience still tends to win. These characters in the show, if nothing else, carry with them the best of intentions.

And, the President and his cabinet are NOT the only ones who are “right.” The show is VERY careful about that. However, they do have their opponents, and yes, in any medium in which you seek to create a plot their has to be CONFLICT. There has to be opposition, although I think the show doesn’t so much as make out “bad guys” as it does people who are perhaps too jaded or unethical for the positions they hold.

But, I know where you’re coming from. I roll my eyes a lot. I growled over the Deus Ex Machina ending of the pilot – that the president could walk into a room, wave his magic wand and solve everyone’s problems.

There is a line from Man of La Mancha where Cervantes, discussing the conflict between idealism and reality in the art of writing says that “…madest of all, [is] to see life as it is and not as it should be.” It is something I always consider when things get a little idealistic and campy.

I’ve seen the show take on some pretty good issues. But it never forgets that it is a fairy tale. It is about the people we would like to think hold office. And, although it has a VERY liberal slant, it does present the Republican side of many issues with a great deal of integrity as well.

Sorry you didn’t like it, Flagg. You might consider giving it another try. I think the episode “The Filibuster” was pretty much the best-written and acted teleplay I’ve ever seen.

But then, I don’t always get turned off by hope. And the show is very much about hope.

I love it. It is one hour I never miss. And I always laugh at some point, and I am often made to think. I am ALWAYS entertained. And hell, it’s TV. What more do you want than that?

MP

 

[Flagg]

Erm, I take it you watch the show then!

Great response MP and I totally see where you are coming from with a lot of your points.

The episode I saw (which is probably 18 million years behind the episodes being shown in the US) was the one where the president reveals that he has MS and his chief of staff has to admit publicly that he is a reformed alcoholic and drug addict.

The scene which really got me was something like this;

Scene - Presidents (P) bedroom (of all things)

(enter disillusioned bearded bloke (DBB) who apparently had something to do with the campaign. He has just finished a meeting with the policy makers on the subject of increasing Arts Funding to the NRA)

DBB - I've just had a meeting with your policy tea, and they claim that the core voters aren't interested in increasing funds into the Arts and that therefore we can't do it.

P - Well that's right, the important thing is to keep our voters happy

DBB - I have a problem with that. Governments come and go but while they are in office they have a true chance to make a difference - To do the right thing. I realise that we are trying to change the impact of "big government" but surely we should be doing something for the people.

Pause, emotional classical violins start, camera zooms into the very soul and integrity of the President

P - DBB you're right. Lets do this.

End scene

Talk about vomit enducing!

Anyway, I see your point that this should be viewed as a fairy tale. Its a bit like a Voltaire vision of utopia with young beautiful people talking in quiet voices governing a land of morral liberal prosperity.

This show would never work in the UK. We have, in my humble opinion, some of the best comics and political satirists in the world. We make a point of criticising, ridiculing, debasing and parodising our governments and political movers and shakers. Its our quaint little way of challenging and bettering society I suppose.

I think that the US would benefit from a little more satire, particularily in the political arena. Surely there are enough fairy tales as it is.

[Edited by Flagg on 04-06-2001 at 08:03 AM]

 

[Flagg]

P.S. The stereotypical english diplomat pissed me off too. (Even though he did sort out a situation between the US and India single handedly in that particular show.)

 

[Flagg]

P.P.S - Oops, I think it was probably not the NRA that they wanted to increase Arts funding to. Freudian slip I guess. Was it the NEA? I don't know.

 

[Myrrdin]

Its the one show a week , I try not to miss. I don't expect it to be a documentary, it's entertainment. But I've always enjoyed the shows with a big cast and several story lines running at once. (E.R, Law And Order, L.A. Law etc.

The only cringe making moments came with one actors portrayal of an upper class Englishman. That did drop last nights show into parody.

 

[Flagg]

I don't expect it to be a documentary, it's entertainment.

Its becoming all too easy for people to use that line.

What happens in a hundred years time when someone suddenly says "Hang on a minute, I actually want to be educated not entertained". Response: "Sorry, everyone's forgotten what reality is but here's a copy of The Patriot if that'll help."

[Edited by Flagg on 04-06-2001 at 08:10 AM]

 

[Myrrdin]

It's a feelgood show. Filmed in warm Autumn colours that goes out at 11pm at night. By that time of night, I've had all the "education" I can take for one day.
I,m just looking for a change from the T.V. diet of, how many animals have been slaughtered that day, how many carcasses have still to be buried, fly on the wall documentaries, sport, gameshows, etc.

 

[Madame Pandora]

Flagg -

Yeah, an old episode. It has gotten a lot better, but there are still a bunch of moments like that. The practical person in you will wince. The idealistic part of you grins begrudgingly.

The whole "let's make a difference while we're here" is a common theme of the show. It is also often the driving thought in American politics. There isn't so much a focus on the long term as what we can do "now." I consider that a flaw in the American mindset as well.

I disagree that we don't have a good sense of our own satire. Maybe it's just because I'm in Florida, but this last election has been...brutally hilarious on more than one level. Sure, we don’t have the level of you Brits, but hell, we were founded by Puritans a couple hundred years ago. We don’t have your history to pull from.

Fine, you win.

But Eddie Izzard has been hanging out on our side of the pond a lot more lately, so neener neener neener!

I watch Bill Mahr and Mike Moore. I laugh and wince. I think the SNL skits in this last election were some of the funniest skits I’ve seen on SNL in YEARS.

But I like a little fairy tale, too. And that’s what The West Wing is. It’s a DRAMA. You don’t go to a rodeo and expect to see a fencing tournament, ya know? You don’t watch Monty Python for the weather.

Give it at least the benefit of the genre it plays within.

Another line from Man of La Mancha - "Perhaps too much sanity is madess."

Sure, I’ve got a healthy sense of irony and realistic humor, but I need a fairy tale here and there as well.

I loved the character of Lord John Marbury, BTW. He's one of the guest actors who I am always thrilled to see on the show.

Yeah, I know, a brash, British, know-it-all character is a bit of a stretch...

LOL MP

 

[Madame Pandora]

PS - Flagg, WTF? Entertainment has no obligation to be educational. Empowering people with knowledge is not the responsibility of artists.

It never has been.

Was Shakespeare's Hamlet a proper representation of the historical events he depicted?

Education is a personal responsibility. We educate ourselves. If you're looking for your education in television, well, that's your call. But, at that point, if someone does say "hey, I want to be educated" and all they did was watch TV, I, for one, will not be feeling sorry for them.

And, for what it’s worth, they toss in some education along the way. At least everyone who watches the show now knows what a filibuster is

MP

 

[alexander tzara]

I watched it for the first time last night too and thought it was an ok people-working-together type show. It was obvious straight away that it was in the fantasy realm - like the romantic comedy 'The American President' (no cum-stains on the lover's dress there). I thought it was a lot less nauseating than something like Ally McBeal. But I agree. Just for once I'd like to see an American film or tv show about the President that has the guts to inject the same amount of gritty realism that you see in some of the police or medical dramas. Politicians are at best human: they cheat on their partners, they lie for a living, they create wars and they don't always have the best interests of the people at heart. I just hope that everybody watching West Wing realises that it's fantasy.

 

[Flagg]

You forgot "immensly attractive" in your description there.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating the abolition of entertainment in favour of forced education. I love entertainment and art.

I just worry that a lot of people are not allowing education and development to occupy enough of their minds. I know its a bit of a cliche conspiracy theory but I really do believe that people are induced into a state of apathy by the consumer over substance culture that they are subjugated to on such a regular basis.

There is a role for populist culture but I do see it as somewhat of a wild beast that needs to be supervised to stop it from devouring classical (for want of a better word) culture.

Hey what the fuck am I talking about - I watch Ally McBeal for godsake!

Anyway, I'm sure you know what I mean even if I don't.

P.S. What's a jillibuster?

 

[alexander tzara]

MP - Hamlet was much closer to the reality of what it is to be an imperfect human being trying to do right in a corrupt world than I've seen in ANY tv show. MacBeth isn't a million miles from the reality of politicians: the way he doesn't allow anything, even The King, to stand in the way of ruthless ambition. It was a lot braver for Shakespeare to show the brutal reality of the leadership in the Elizabethan age when there was a genuine threat of execution than it is for some tv executive to take a satirical pop at the President. What's the worse that can happen?

 

[Madame Pandora]

Okay, it’s gotten to the point where either you’re both just pulling my leg to tug or you’re taking a position on a topic that I can’t take seriously.

1. You know damn well I wasn’t comparing television to Shakespeare. It was an illustration of the fact that ART has no obligation to be EDUCATIONAL.
2. Entertainment isn’t “forced” upon our children, or upon anyone for that matter. You have to go out and buy a movie ticket, or a television set and CHOOSE it. Education is the same way. You have to go out and BUY a book or ATTEND a lecture. The whole “I just want to lay here and be educated” philosophy doesn’t hold water. Yeah, I worry that some people are stupid too, but it’s THEIR fault, not the fault of writers, or businessmen. Maybe it is the fault of some politicians – as these are ELECTED OFFICIALS out to watch over the greater good. But most people who take their education laying down usually take their politics that way, too. And, once again, the people on this show ARE NOT politicians. They just play ones on TV.
3. “Classic culture” as you call it never has – and I think never will stand a chance against “Popular culture.” That’s just the way it is.

Roger, I would address what you said, but I have no clue what point you’re making. Shakespeare was braver than the average TV executive? Pardon me while I DUH. What’s up with that, babe? LOL.

A filibuster, Flagg, (and my definition may be off the bull’s eye, but it will settle close to the mark) is a technicality of US congressional procedure which allows a speaker holding the floor to retain the floor as long as he continues speaking. He doesn’t have to address an issue – all he has to do is talk. And he can hold up votes or try to accomplish whatever small goal his obstructionist tactics are aiming for. Put simple, it’s the use of a lengthy oratory to prevent legislative action.

And, BTW – Aaron Sorkin also wrote The American Presidentwhich I enjoyed as a romantic comedy...but not as an educational device.

MP

 

[Gingersnap]

Why let reality interrupt my tv viewing schedule?

I think that some americans have a tendency to live in a fantasy world. They want their children to "be good" and "motivated". They want their problems exposed and then fixed at the end of the news report. They do not under any circumstances want to have to grow up and accept that the world is full of shadows and sometimes the light cannot erase the dark. There are a lot of people who merely want to exist not live or understand. Thats why there are prime time shows in which everyone is beautiful and maybe a little zany but god forbid a little morbid. It's a Barbie World guys!

 

[Madame Pandora]

So...let me get this straight...

In a medium that has given us Friends, Blossom, Family Matters, The Fresh Prince of Bel-Aire, Temptation Island, and Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire, you want to take The West Wing to task?

I think the problem here is that the people behind this show are incredibly brilliant. They are good writers, excellent directors, and extremely talented actors and actresses. So, some people think it's "beneath them" to do "feel good" television, even if it is smart and witty feel good TV.

To that, I only have one thing to say -

Some people would also argue that it's "beneath" a really good writer to pen porn.

MP

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

It took you this long to finally use West Wing as another way to say "Americans are big doodie-heads"? LOL

 

[alexander tzara]

1. You know damn well I wasn?t comparing television to Shakespeare. It was an illustration of the fact that ART has no obligation to be EDUCATIONAL.

3.?Classic culture? as you call it never has ? and I think never will stand a chance against ?Popular culture.? That?s just the way it is.

Haha. My point isn't that Shakespeare is better than tv. If he was around today he'd probably be WRITING tv and film scripts - and not high-brow artsy-fartsy stuff. He'd be on prime-time tv. In his own time, his plays were the equivalent of a quality mainstream show that appeals to the critics and the public - sex, violence, comedy, fantasy, jealousy, romance etcetera. He wasn't doing Classic Culture. He was doing Popular Culture that just happened to have deeper layers of meaning and quality if you wanted to look for them. He wasn't trying to educate the audience.

You were making the point, MP, that Hamlet wasn't an accurate portrayal of politics at the time. I was saying that I think that the character of Hamlet IS psychologically more realistic than most protoganists in tv shows or films. In a lot of ways Hamlet, and plays like MacBeth, DO accurately portray the politics of the time. I'm not talking about historical accuracy (this is fiction not documentary) but the psychology of people in power.

I don't think art has any obligation to be educational either. In fact some of the worst art is the kind that preaches to you. But I do like to have some reality reflected back at me even when I'm watching fantasy shows. Two of my favourite shows are Buffy and The Simpsons. Buffy is obviously an escapist show but I think that there's a lot of real life in there. The characters are believable within their make-believe world. They're all vulnerable and flawed, and can sometimes be quite dark. The show has even taken risks with the openly lesbian relationship between Willow and Tara. I think that The Simpsons contains some of the best satire around - there are no sacred cows. It's consistently very funny - mainly because there is so much reality in there.

I think that if people a couple of hundred years from now tried to get a feel for how life really was for Americans in the late 20th / early 21st century they'd be better watching The Simpsons than most of the other shows around.

Roger, I would address what you said, but I have no clue what point you?re making. Shakespeare was braver than the average TV executive? Pardon me while I DUH. What?s up with that, babe? LOL.

Pretty much every American President I can remember seeing in a mainstream film or tv show since 'All The President's Men' has been a nice, charming man with a heart of gold trying to do a difficult job in a hard world eg - 'Airforce 1', 'Independence Day' etcetera.

Like I said, from the one episode I've seen, 'West Wing' seems like an ok show. It seemed to have good characters and a similar feel to mainstream dramas like ER, or whatever (although there were a few 'God Bless America!' moments that made me cringe more than usual). I like Martin Sheen's character in the show but just for once I wish someone other than Oliver "The CIA Are Camped Under My Bed" Stone would portray the President as a devious, lying, ambitious fool who cheats on his wife and kicks dogs when his chief of staff isn't looking.

I don't like sacred cows. I think that the President is a sacred cow in American mainstream culture. Not the ACTUAL President (when Clinton or Bush act stupidly the public in America laugh just as loudly as everyone else) but the IDEA of the President. What he stands for: basically America itself. I think that mainstream US culture can't laugh at or criticise the idea of America. American culture seems able to tackle any difficult subject, any taboo in an intelligent, insightful way apart from America itself. I don't think it's healthy in the modern age to continually stick your leader or your country on a pedestal. There's so much I love about Americans and American culture (and, of course, naughty mid-Western Catholic Girls who should be at work instead of loitering around porno sites!) but I just wish there wasn't this stumbling block.

It's about time The President was portrayed as a gay, communistic, atheist who doesn't believe in marriage. I bet Shakespeare or Matt Groening would be brave enough to do it. LOL.

By the way - I enjoyed 'The American President' too. Nothing wrong with a good Romantic Comedy now and again.

 

[Mischka]

I don't think it's healthy in the modern age to continually stick your leader or your country on a pedestal.

We just impeached the last sitting President. After an event like that, we cannot separate the man from the office, and there are no pedestals in the White House. I would contend that Americans have a healthy dose of realism when dealing with our elected officials and the expectations of their offices.

And what is unhealthy about celebrating one's own country? There is a difference between zealous nationalism and simple patriotism. Liking your homeland (or adopted homeland) is an expression of pride for everything that's right with that country, not a declaration of others' inferiority. Americans should be able to put their country on a pedestal. We have a great thing going here. In fact, I would assert that our government - even the real, non-West Wing one - is one of the best systems around.

 

[bluntforcemama]

I LOVE the West Wing. I hope it makes it, too. It's the first TV show that I've seen in years that doesn't make me feel like barfing on a twitty Courtney Cox.

 

[alexander tzara]

Like I've said: I don't think West Wing is a bad show at all.

We just impeached the last sitting President. After an event like that, we cannot separate the man from the office, and there are no pedestals in the White House. I would contend that Americans have a healthy dose of realism when dealing with our elected officials and the expectations of their offices.

I agree. I've never doubted that. As I said, I'm not talking about the way the public reacts to the REAL President, or the way that he's lampooned in satirical shows etcetera:

I think that the President is a sacred cow in American mainstream culture. Not the ACTUAL President (when Clinton or Bush act stupidly the public in America laugh just as loudly as everyone else) but the IDEA of the President.

I'm talking about the fairy-tale way Presidents are often portrayed in tv shows and films. Why are they always portrayed in such perfect light in fiction? It's obviously an ideal of who the public WANT their President to be - which is fair enough. But why does that ideal have to be hammered home so heavily EVERY time? To an outsider this need to constantly "Big-up" America and the Leader in tv and films looks more like insecurity than pride. I just think it would be refreshing if once in a while the whole thing was tackled from a different angle: send in a few court jesters with sharp sticks to deflate the King's ego every now and again.

And what is unhealthy about celebrating one's own country? There is a difference between zealous nationalism and simple patriotism. Liking your homeland (or adopted homeland) is an expression of pride for everything that's right with that country, not a declaration of others' inferiority. Americans should be able to put their country on a pedestal.

There's nothing at all wrong with celebrating your own country and there is so much for Americans to be proud of. But it seems that this pedestal image of America as "The Greatest Country In The World" and The President as its good-hearted caretaker is the ONLY one allowed in mainstream US film and tv. Why is that? Why IS there this obsession with a perfection which can never be achieved?

 

[jcgirl]

That show is freaking awesome! I never miss it. Its incredibly well done. I positevely adore Rob Lowe in his character, and I can't think of anyone more suited to play the president than Martin Sheen.

 

[Madame Pandora]

...it seems that this pedestal image of America as "The Greatest Country In The World" and The President as its good-hearted caretaker is the ONLY one allowed in mainstream US film and tv.

Dave - Kevin Kline, Sigourney Weaver, Frank Langella.

Clear and Present Danger- Harrison Ford, Willem DaFoe, Anne Archer

Absolute Power - Clint Eastwood, Gene Hackman, Ed Harris

Dick - Kirsten Dunst, Michelle Williams, Dan Hedaya

I'm sure there are more, but these are the 4 that popped into my head first. If Harrison Ford and Clint Eastwood films don't rate as mainstream anymore, please let me know.

MP

 

[Gingersnap]

Homer is more real then Martin Sheen

I find it hard to watch prime time tv. It frankly annoys the hell out of me. I see drama everyday at my job complete with unhappy endings and laughter and darkness and reality. No commercial interruptions either (although at times we pray for them). This is the drama that hooks me. I get to see people at their worst and their noblest.....and hell at their funniest too. Homer can make me laugh out loud cause I know that show is a whole lot closer to life as we live it.

 

[alexander tzara]

MP - can't comment. I've not seen those films.
Gingersnap - can I eat your shorts?