Were you, or did you know someone directly fated on 9/11? Here's why I ask.........

[Uber Sparky]

I feel that those 'directly' (or very nearly directly) 'influenced' (for lack of a better word) on 9/11...

are most likely those who may be supportive of the impending war with Iraq.

I feel that the opposite may also be true. That those most mentaly removed from any direct influence on 9/11 may be those most likely to be non-supportive of the war.

Me?

I was a mile and a half away from the Twin Towers. I was actually headed down there when I saw the first plane hit, on TV. I had only postponed my trip down there because of traffic and knowing that the motorcycle and guitar shops I had planned to visit were not open until 10am.

Other wise my typical routine on such a beautiful day - was to ride my motorcycle down there - where I parked my bike in the Coast Guard Station's parking lot - I'd get a cup of coffee and a New York Post and sit there - drinking in the wonders of NYC - watching the ferry and the never ending stream of pretty girls coming off the subway - going to work at World Trade. The simple fate of timing - saved me from a much more severe experience.

I had been to Windows on the World many times - I took my kids there, my family. I have 3 aquaintences who worked at World Trade - they all made it. I had worked with the Mayor twice - aiding in press conferences. I like Rudy.

The Shebabe was even closer to Battery Park than I. The ash cloud was headed her way - I called her and told her to send everyone home and that she should do the same. Once home and together - we sat in a bar drinking tequila, it was Blue Moon on 2nd Ave in the 70's - and watched the march of thousands upon thousands of ashen New Yorker's walk - many walking 40 miles - home to let their families know, they were alive.

Nearly everyone was crying.

Over the next few months - funerals - every stinkin' day.

So, I tell ya what - guess - guess if I may be just a little supportive of the war?

Any you all?

Please - I'm curious. Pro or Con war?

And - how close were you? How close are you? How has 9/11 affected you?

And, how relative is that to your opinion on 'the new war?'

 

[p_p_man]

According to a few news items I've seen on the subject...

quite a number who lost friends and relatives are protesting the war under the 'Not In My Name' banner...

ppman

 

[perks]

My husband's uncle died in the towers.


However, this war on Iraq has nothing to do with bin Laden's attack on us.

 

[Uber Sparky]

I like to see any such articles...

I certainly have not seen any.

Only the contrary.

 

[Problem Child]

Show me the linkage between 9/11 and Iraq.

Please.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: I like to see any such articles...

I certainly have not seen any.

Only the contrary.

As I said I've seen a few new items on TV but as you asked I've found this web site. There are others but this is first I found...

Peaceful Tomorrows

ppman

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: I like to see any such articles...

As I said I've seen a few new items on TV but as you asked I've found this web site. There are others but this is first I found...

Peaceful Tomorrows

ppman

PS: Click on 'media coverage' in the menu on the left of the site for some very illuminating stories...

ppman

 

[Uber Sparky]

As far as linkage goes - and showing it to anyone...

Powell has done so to the world.

I have no substantial rationale to believe he'd be lieing.

But - this thread was not intended for debate - that's been done. Over and over again.

What hasn't been done is the comparison I've have laid out in this thread - the vehicle of which - is a relatively simple and straight forward question.

A question which neither responder to this thread (thus far) has answered.

Curious huh?

 

[Problem Child]

Re: As far as linkage goes - and showing it to anyone...

Powell has done so to the world.

I have no substantial rationale to believe he'd be lieing.

But - this thread was not intended for debate - that's been done. Over and over again.

What hasn't been done is the comparison I've have laid out in this thread - the vehicle of which - is a relatively simple and straight forward question.

A question which neither responder to this thread (thus far) has answered.

Curious huh?

Powell didn't show any direct linkage between Iraq and 9/11, and that's what your question is based on.

You're basing your support for a war on something that doesn't exist.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: As far as linkage goes - and showing it to anyone...

A question which neither responder to this thread (thus far) has answered.

I was diverted by your question...

I'm anti-war...

ppman

 

[CatEyes]

I live about 35 miles outside of NY city. I have family and friends who live in Jersey City which is literally right outside of NY city. I have family and friends who were working that day within 2 or 3 blocks of the twin towers. No one I personally know died in the attack. Someone I work with lost her brother that day.

Besides all that I'm against this war at this time.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

People are using people's emotions about the WTC attack to convince people to support a war that has nothing to do with the WTC attack. Iraq is too secular to have much to do with religious terrorists...look to Saudi Arabia if you want to find a link to terrorism.

 

[patient1]

I don't know anyone that died in the towers, and I've never been in them.

However , I was working in NY on the day of the attack, listening to the news as the story broke. Even if I spoke another language & couldn't understand or know what happened, the change in everyone's behavior was so profound I always remember it.

Somebody I work with had an appointment in the towers that morning.

Somebody I know was an eyewitness to the plane going down in PA.

It's very real to me.

The linkage to Iraq is not.

Al Q'uida is my preoccupation. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan because they wouldn't turn over Osama or allow us in to get him. I'd do the same in a similar situation, & there are a number of candidate countries.

I support action in response to Al Q'uida.
I question the war in Iraq.

 

[phrodeau]

On September 11, 2001, President George W. Bush declared war. We have been at war ever since. This war is against international terrorism. This is the war the victims of the WTC attacks should and do support.

 

[tulip2lipservice]

Nobody will truly understand unless

they were there.

I was very fortunate that day for many reasons. My immediate family was all right but I lost several friends. I was safely accross the river in Queens far enough from direct danger but close enough to observe the turmoil of the buildings burning.

A co worker came in and told me that there was a plane crash at the WTC and my heart sunk but never imagined that it was a terrorist attack. As I looked out of my window I saw white smoke and flames and thought it would be put out and there would be some minor casualties.

Then the second plane crashed and the sky was blanketed by smoke. Very little visability but after some time when I looked again I couldn't see the outline of the towers. They were no where to be seen. So many people I worked with had loved ones that worked at the WTC. So many uncertanties. So many that were lucky their loved ones returned home and so many that lost people they loved. Cell phones were useless at that point.

Later on I approached a police officer in my building who had his radio on and was receiving tramission of people yelling that they are over here, under this, by that, etc. I was motionless as he twisted the buttons on his radio but forced myself to walk away many minutes later from the sounds I was hearing. They were the sounds of people trying to get rescued. In retrospect they did not make it and in a way as I heard it I felt that they wouldn't.

As the day progressed a sigh of relief and tears would enter me as I heard that this ones wife called or that this ones son was all right. I prayed for those who did not hear from their loved ones.

Within my heart I felt at peace for my brothers' well being and I tried to remain stoic for the people about me. I cannot explain why I felt calm for their safety but I just did and it was a strong sense that no harm would come to them. Little did I know that my one brother was in the midst of it all. Several months earlier his job was working on the one floor below where the first plane had crashed. That day he walked so many miles through debree and seeing body parts flying about him. He was one of the lucky ones. My other brother had a meeting at the WTC for 9 that morning. Fortunately it was canceled the day before. There are so many other first hand stories and miracles of how others survived.

Yes, so many funerals and services to attend for the months that followed. Many countless hours to check up on friends whose loved ones were still missing. I bit my tongue as not to interfer with their faith and hope that their loved one was still alive but simply listened. So many that held on to hope in anticipation that their loved one had lost their memory or was in shock in a hospital.

Many firemen, police officers, Emt workers, court officers and many that perished that day in efforts to help others. I know many people that work in those careers that had survived but lost their brethrens. Men and women that were there and in rescue efforts that their body physically shook for months later. Many nightmares that entered their spirit even to this day but remain silent. So many to console even if it was just being at a service without any words. People you would meet and nod for you knew that they experienced something horrid that day but unable to talk about it.

This horrific act created a bond that glued so many New Yorkers together. We rose above it to do what we could to help others. Many positive actions occurred afterwards from such a horrible event in history. In a way a reality check of what is truly important in mankind.

My male friend and a friend's wife were together in the second tower as the woman called her husband. My friend could hear his wife talking to my male friend as he urged her to get out. They continued to talk as he overheard my male friend tell his wife, "take my hand, come on let's go, it's going to be all right." My friend found solace that his wife was with my other friend and that they were heading for the elevator to exit. In the midst of the conversation there was a bang, then silence and the phone was disconnected. They were in the elevator when the second plane crashed. They never made it out, but how much faith both of their spouses held on to for months to follow. His wife leaving behind a two year old daughter that will not be allowed to grow up with her mother. The silent victims of our future because of this terrorist act.

When I finally arrived home on 9/11 I called my family memebers first and all were accounted for. I could not make the phone calls to friends that day. I just couldn't. I didn't have it in me because I didn't want to know. Wednesday is when I called everybody I thought could of been in the city. Most survived and I was grateful. Most knew people that died but were unsure at that point. All hoping for a miracle. It was weeks after that I had a count of how many, but even to this day if I go to a store and bump into somebody from grammar school, high school, college or whatever somebody will say so and so died at the WTC. So it even continues even over a year and a half later.

That Thursday when I went back to work the air was filled with death. The wind had shifted that ordor to the area I worked in. You could cut it like a knife and my stomache was in knots as I attempted to get back into a routine. I couldn't breathe fresh air at all that day because it was so poignant.

How I struggled to get back into a routine. I was like a zombie just going through the motions and telling people I was all right. I forced myself to go into the city a week later and I knew I needed human contact more so than ever again. The city was filled with the scent of burning rubber to cover the smell of burning bodies. The streets were silent compared to the hussles and bussles I have experienced before in the city that never sleeps. I did this to not allow fear to over take me. I did this to not let the terrorist win by toying with others' fear. To this day I have yet to be back to the World Trade Center. There have been days recently since the year anniversary that I feel I need to go before construction on a new project is started. Perhaps that will be another closing point for me.

After that day in the city I took a bottle of cognac and drank. It was about two or three glasses half filled with coca cola and ice. It was enough to numb my pain and something I never have done prior and a rare occassion or two afterwards. I was in mourning for so many and so many I was still waiting to hear from. Something clicked as I heard from a friend that I thought was dead and I realized that it is ok to mourn those I lost but I for my own sanity needed to celebrate those that lived. So that is what I started to do everytime I found out another survived. I welcomed them with a big hug and told them how I felt about having them in my life. Something so many of us forget to do on a daily basis.

Some will say that Bin Laden has no reflection of Iraq. That the two are seperate. In a way they might be right but the way I see it is that Bush started to go after terrorist. In that proccess other things have been revealed and one of them is that Iraq is involved with terrorists. There might not be clear evidence that Sadam Hussain has supported by weapons, people, troops, money and such but he has supported for his hatred towards America and way of life. He prepares himself for battle. He was happy to see that so many people in America sufffered from this deed. People from Iraq have publically said they are happy that Americans felt a little of what they have felt for centuries. An eye for an eye mentality.

This hatred does not excuse his right to keep producing weapons or hiding what he has. It does not give him the right to produce or hold onto chemicial warfare. He does not play by the UN rules and yet the Americans are supposed to. Sadam has been a thorn in American's side prior to Desert Storm as well as other countries. Ask people in Kuwaitt. They know first hand what this man is capable of. By giving him power to continue to do what he has and then more are we truly doing a justice to this world?

So after my long drawn out thoughts here I am in favor of this war. Do I want to see people on either side die, no. I have too much at stake also but in the long term is it going to get any easier? I am for peace, but how can you have it if it is only one sided? If only one side is willing to comprimise and the other holds tight such hatred that has been inbreeded into them for centuries don't you think that they will continue their cause. A cause to me that is unclear. If it is just land give it back and move on but would that truly stop their hatred? Sometimes we have to make sacrifices in the present so things will not get out of hand in our future. It seems like now is the time before it is further out of control.

I shared many thoughts and feelings that I had experienced because of this act. It was not written to be belittled or berated but to shed light on how one person in this neck of the wood observed what was going on about her. I truly understand the sentiments for peace and the importance of it all. At the same time will we ever have peace if we allow things to continue the way they are going right now? Again sacrafices have always been made for the well being of the masses.

Thank you for allowing me to get some things out in a cathartic mannar based on your topic within this thread.

Peace,
Tulip

 

[p_p_man]

On September 11, 2001, President George W. Bush declared war. We have been at war ever since. This war is against international terrorism. This is the war the victims of the WTC attacks should and do support.

So why is Iraq being attacked?

ppman

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I think it is a shame that the 9-11 attack, as horrible as it was, is being used to support any and every action of this administration. Going after Osama is one thing, destroying Iraq is a whole other thing. Yes, Saddam needs removing, but carpet bombing a country that hasn't attacked anyone in over a decade is not the way to do it.

 

[CatEyes]

Tulip, I'm sorry for your losses, obviously this touched you personally in more ways than most.

The hatred against the US I think mostly comes from them feeling that we think we're better, think we have a right to stick our noses in everything, look down upon them and are bullies.

All muslim countries have people who feel this way, these terrorists are in every muslim country as well as Europe and the US. I just don't see how destroying Hussein solves anything, except to raise anti american feelings and justify what they've thought all along.

Most of these terrorists came from Saudi Arabia, why aren't we going after them? Because they're too powerful?

I just don't believe that we're going after Hussein because of 9/11 and the whole terrorist issue. I think Bush has other reasons wich he's not telling us about and he's using 9/11 as an excuse. Maybe if he told the truth I'd feel better about it.

Talking about this is all pointless anyway, what's going to happen is going to happen and none of us have any chance of changing it.

 

[phrodeau]

So why is Iraq being attacked?

ppman

Which attack are you referring to?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I just don't believe that we're going after Hussein because of 9/11 and the whole terrorist issue. I think Bush has other reasons wich he's not telling us about and he's using 9/11 as an excuse. Maybe if he told the truth I'd feel better about it.

There ARE good reasons, and the fact that neither the government nor the media focuses on them is part of what bothers me. Instead of using the legit reasons, they keep harping on the flimsy Iraq-Osama connection. Why? I'm not a mind reader, but I am concerned about the true motives behind the lousy reasoning.

 

[tulip2lipservice]

Tulip, I'm sorry for your losses, obviously this touched you personally in more ways than most.

The hatred against the US I think mostly comes from them feeling that we think we're better, think we have a right to stick our noses in everything, look down upon them and are bullies.

All muslim countries have people who feel this way, these terrorists are in every muslim country as well as Europe and the US. I just don't see how destroying Hussein solves anything, except to raise anti american feelings and justify what they've thought all along.

Most of these terrorists came from Saudi Arabia, why aren't we going after them? Because they're too powerful?

I just don't believe that we're going after Hussein because of 9/11 and the whole terrorist issue. I think Bush has other reasons wich he's not telling us about and he's using 9/11 as an excuse. Maybe if he told the truth I'd feel better about it.

Talking about this is all pointless anyway, what's going to happen is going to happen and none of us have any chance of changing it.

True points stated here however in my own opinion there is a connection between the two. I cannot see any other reason why we would invest so much time into it.

The type of hatred the people hold to the USA stems deeper than feeling that we are better than them. Perhaps it is jealousy but again it is no justification to the extent of hatred people of Iraq have expressed.

To me this is more of a human rights thing more than anything. Did you ever think that a percentage of people in Iraq want this war. That they might just want a new government. Then there is a percentage that just hate USA. Then a percentage that have monetary gain. There is a whole mix of things that I do not think we are privy to.

Like you said what will be will be. I hope whatever is done is done swiftly with little causualties. Idealistically it would be wonderful if all parties could come to a comprimise. That all can drop past feelings and move on. Will that happen, I doubt it.

To me there is a connection to Iraq and terrorists.

Peace,
Tulip

 

[Spinaroonie]

Re: Re: I like to see any such articles...

As I said I've seen a few new items on TV but as you asked I've found this web site. There are others but this is first I found...

Peaceful Tomorrows

ppman

Way to go, P_P_Man.

You mentioned the "Not in our name" organization, but couldn't even find a link! You might want to check out this site called "google" sometime.

Here is the Not In Our Name website, it has many 9/11 victems' families signatures on it, etc. I signed it a while back but since I checked the "student" box it probably threw away my record.

http://www.nion.us/

 

[Uber Sparky]

Still, only a few answering the actual question...

I applaud those who did - and - a few that were relatively close and 'do not' support a war.

That is fine.

As for 'eotion being used' to prmote pro-war sentiment? Not on this thread - whoever does this 'here' had 'read that into it' themselves.

Perhaps they might be doing the same toward our leaders.

Even so - if you don't or won't go to war - 'with emotion' - you will loose that war.

If you really had to go.

As for no linkage - I guess it all comes down to wether 'you believe' our leaders - or not.

And even though I am not a Republican (I find it unintelligent to ever align myself 'wholesale' to any group of thoughts or ideal) and even though I am by far 'not' a big fan at all of GWB...

I find it a great, huge, rational stretch - to think that he, and his entire cabinet have 'maufactured' evidence (linkage as you say) on such a grand scale - to forward evil ideals (wanting of oil and revenge for daddy) - and basically pulling the wool over the eyes of the world.

It just doesn't make sense that 'today' in light of all the cross-checking out there - even a man who is not so smart - a spoiled rich boy - who has lucked into the most powerful office in the world - could actually think he could get away with something like that.

It just doen's seem feasible. I seriously doubt 'the boss is lying.'

And conversely - I find it 'the stuff of movie making' (shall we say fantansy?) - the 'out there' accuasations being made.

Great movie - false reality.

 

[ChiaraRowena]

Re: Still, only a few answering the actual question...

I find it a great, huge, rational stretch - to think that he, and his entire cabinet have 'maufactured' evidence (linkage as you say) on such a grand scale - to forward evil ideals (wanting of oil and revenge for daddy) - and basically pulling the wool over the eyes of the world.

It just doesn't make sense that 'today' in light of all the cross-checking out there - even a man who is not so smart - a spoiled rich boy - who has lucked into the most powerful office in the world - could actually think he could get away with something like that.

It just doen's seem feasible. I seriously doubt 'the boss is lying.'

Granted, I live in the land of 10,000 lakes (Minnesota for the uneducated), I was hardly affected by this, no, I actually expected something like it to happen. But I am anti-war, not because of 9/11 and it's non-effect on me, but because I am usually against -all- war. I believe there are other ways to solve these problems, and shooting each other until someone surrenders seems kind of barbaric and cowardly. At least in the old days we actually went head on head with swords and such. Face to face with our victim/killer. No anonymous faceless deaths. It's desensitizing to never see the dead. Those in Iraq are no less human and worthy of compassion than those of us in the UnUnited State of Amerika are.

I think it's time we take responsibility for our poor foriegn policy. We easily take advantage of those less fortunate, all in the name of "freedom" and "liberty" and whatnot.

I believe it is entirely possible for the president to lie, he "won" the election, did he not? Therefore, it's easy for his henchmen to lie. Sorry, I have no sympathy for him or his "causes". Nor do I hold much sympathy for our government. I am sorry for those who suffered loss, as any loss is painful, and one on such a terrible scale is just unthinkably tragic. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time, unfortunately. No war will bring them back. No war will avenge their deaths. More death does not right a wrong commited a year ago. It's not necessarily time to move on, but it is time to heal, not further the wound by having a war in the name of the deceased.

If that made any sense, good, if not, sorry. I'm kind of rambling.

 

[Uber Sparky]

Give me a break - the election could have gone either way...

and of course if Gore had one there'd be people saying that he and 'his' henchmen had 'lied' and 'won.'

As for 'freedom' - 'liberty' - and 'whatnot?'

And not holding any 'sympathy' for the US Gov't - something I have not solicited here - and never would solicit anywhere...

You are a pitiful American. To which I can only imagine you would say, 'so what if I am?'

To which I would say - leave - or do something to 'change it.' Instead of pukeing such shit out on this board.

Were you born here? Has anyone ever shown you a better life elsewhere? A better form of Gov't elsewhere?

Then go - we'd rather have you leave than be a non-playing, blood sucking - non-member of our team.