Were you influenced by erotic themes in fairy tales?

[shereads]

If no one answers "yes," then neither was I.


<blushing>


Otherwise, I'll admit that I used to squirm around in my chair a bit when reading any of these, and that I read them over and over:

Beauty and the Beast
Rapunzel
Sleeping Beauty
Little Red Riding Hood
Snow White & the Seven Stern Professors

This is a beautifully illustrated website with annotated versions of the most popular fairytales. The author provides interpretations of some common symbols used in fairytales, as they would have been understood by audiences a few centuries ago. (Roses, animals, forests, gold and golden hair as symbols of purity, etc.) The illustrations include some you might recognize if you had a collection of Grimms' or Hans Cristian Andersen's fairytales.

http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/introduction/index.html

There's no acknowledgement of the preponderance of bondage themes. (Did I imagine those?)

But I did find this surprising:

"...theorizes that many fairy tales were created to comfort daughters who faced arranged marriages and leaving their homes to live in the unknown household of their in-laws. While the daughter is reluctant to leave, she is ultimately rewarded with a happy marriage through her honor of her parents and the initial sacrifice of her desires."

 

[Guest]

You can save your blushes, I voted "Yes".

There is something incredibly erotic about some of them, particularly those you pointed out. A woman at the mercy of others always does it for me, anyway.

What website, btw? Do you have a link?

 

[BlackShanglan]

Oh heavens yes. But then, I'm odder than most. I did love the erotic subtext, but I also loved the themes of magic and isolation and internal beauty.

This probably says palpably bizarre things about me, but the one thing I could really never understand about stories like "Snow White and Rose Red" (where is a prince enchanted into a bear) or similar is ... why were people so damned desperate to turn back? If someone turned me into a bear, I imagine that I would live happily ever after, gorging on honey, hunting myself down a nice meal of elk or venison once in a while, and on the odd occasion charming hordes of humans by being cuddly and sweet to them.

But don't let that make you think that I'm unhappy with my own life. I'm quite happy being a horse.

Shanglan

(Edited to add ... )

Is this also the right place to admit to discovering a love of bondage and humiliation while watching a Tom and Jerry cartoon?

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

Big "yes". The big bad wolf, the woodsmen, Rumplestiltskin, ogres, giants; anything masculine and scary was alluring.

I identified most with Snow White cos she was a rare brunette and had a horrid mum.

Perdita

 

[cantdog]

I feel sure I remember responding to the romance of them, and more so when I noticed the girls seeming to groove on that aspect.

I never took eating Grandma literally, however.

I think the things were often aimed more squarely at girls, and were expected to socialize them to their role. Female sexuality is an altogether more daunting thing than male sexuality. I figure you people are hypnotized, wacked all out on hormones, during pregnancy. How else could you manage to handle the distortion of the body, the disease-like discomforts and pains and nausea symptoms which accompany it, and the sure knowledge that an alien being was growing inside your body, and would surely hatch out in a gout of your blood amid your agonized screams? Fuck me running. It would scare the living shit out of a sane person. So I figure you are doped up by the endocrine system at the time. That wouldn't help a young girl who hadn't the benefit of the hormonal help and was contemplating her reproductive future.

So in my view, girls need all the help facing this that they can get. Guy stories dwell on responsibility and being true and honorable. Again, for socialization.

So I think I missed a lot of the overtones because they weren't really aimed at me.

 

[shereads]

You can save your blushes, I voted "Yes".

There is something incredibly erotic about some of them, particularly those you pointed out. A woman at the mercy of others always does it for me, anyway.

What website, btw? Do you have a link?

Oops. Sorry.

http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/illustrations/index.html

 

[BlackShanglan]

Besides this being a brilliant rant,

Fuck me running.

will now be added permanently to the equine vocabulary.

Shanglan

 

[impressive]

The eroticism sailed completely over my head in my toddler years. I remember being terrified by the old lady who lived in a shoe, though. I mean, WTF?

Now, much later ... pre-teen, perhaps, I caught the undertones in a big way when reading these stories to the children I was babysitting. Snow White, especially -- shackin' up with the 7 little dudes. I remember thinking, "Now THIS has potential!"

 

[impressive]

Besides this being a brilliant rant,



will now be added permanently to the equine vocabulary.

Shanglan

How appropriate.

 

[Guest]

Oops. Sorry.

http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/illustrations/index.html

Cheers!

Off to peruse...

 

[shereads]

"If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales. If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales."

~ Albert Einstein

I could feel my IQ rising every time Rapunzel had another illicit meeting with her handsome, hair-fetishist prince in the tall, round, granite tower...

 

[Guest]

Oops. Sorry.

http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/illustrations/index.html

Wonderful site, Sher! I can see me spending hours there.

In your first post you mentioned, "There's no acknowledgement of the preponderance of bondage themes. (Did I imagine those?)" First off, no, you didn't imagine those.

Secondly, while reading the annotations for The Princess and the Pea, I did find a very strong reference to S&M:

9. Black and blue: The idea that the princess has actually been bruised by the pea(s) is a haunting image of her sensitivity. Some modern writers have explored the sado-masochist possibilities of this story element, wondering why the prince would want to marry a woman with such physical sensitivity.

Good stuff. Thanks!

Lou

 

[Guest]

And for fans of corsets...

From the annotations for Sleeping Beauty:

22. In a swoon: A swoon is a faint. In earlier centuries, swooning was a more common occurence both real and faked by women for attention. Fake swoons were affected to change the attention or avoid unpleasant incidents. Real swoons were often caused by corsets being tied too tight or by illness.

23. Unlaced her: When swooning occurred, it was often caused by a corset being tied too tight. One of the first solutions to the problem was to loosen the corset's ties in order to help the victim catch her breath and revive more quickly.

Yep, those fairy tales had everything!

 

[shereads]

This probably says palpably bizarre things about me, but the one thing I could really never understand about stories like "Snow White and Rose Red" (where is a prince enchanted into a bear) or similar is ... why were people so damned desperate to turn back? If someone turned me into a bear, I imagine that I would live happily ever after, gorging on honey, hunting myself down a nice meal of elk or venison once in a while, and on the odd occasion charming hordes of humans by being cuddly and sweet to them.

Wait a sec while I move this information tidbit from the "Useless Trivia" section of the brain over to the "I Know! I Know!" file:

Bears didn't get much respect in medieval European cities, where the only time most people saw one was when somebody dragged a sickly, underfed animal to a bear-baiting event. At the SurLaLune Fairytales site, the annotated Beauty & The Beast notes that some versions of the story present the Beast as stupid, rather than fierce, which is part of his curse, and that he's often presented as a bear.

I won't need that fact anymore, will I? I can free up some RAM.

Is this also the right place to admit to discovering a love of bondage and humiliation while watching a Tom and Jerry cartoon?

No, it is not, you sicko!

This is the place to admit that you were disappointed when Mighty Mouse, with his tremulous tenor voice, girlish nipped waist and chaste kisses, rescued the girl mouse from the cat before you could find out what plans the cat had for her back at his lair.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Bears didn't get much respect in medieval European cities, where the only time most people saw one was at a bear-baiting event, where the animals were probably underfed and weak.

You know, that's quite an interesting point. However, I should point out that I've felt the same way about people enchanted into lions, dragons, etc. Still, your point is well taken. I suppose that in the end it's about surrendering human status and socialization, but then I never liked humans all that much anyway. Individually they can be quite charming, but as a mass their habits are less so.

No, it is not, you sicko!

This is the place to admit that you were disappointed when Mighty Mouse, with his tremulous tenor voice, girlish nipped waist and chaste kisses, rescued the girl mouse from the cat before you could find out what plans the cat had for her back at his lair.

I do beg your pardon. Excellent point, though ... felines are so immensely erotic.

Shanglan

 

[shereads]

I feel sure I remember responding to the romance of them, and more so when I noticed the girls seeming to groove on that aspect.

I never took eating Grandma literally, however.

I think the things were often aimed more squarely at girls, and were expected to socialize them to their role.

SurLaLune agrees with you. Marriages were arranged and girls knew from an early age that they might not meet their husbands until the wedding day. He'd have bad teeth and too much hair in the wrong places. In "Beauty and the Beast," Beauty finds happiness by sacrificing herself to save her father. I bet that was one of Dad's stories.



One that doesn't quite fit the mold is Rapunzel, where the only figure of authority is the jealous witch and Rapunzel turns out to be quite the little trollop at the first inkling of male interest. Is there a moral to that story, or is it just hot?

How else could you manage to handle the distortion of the body, the disease-like discomforts and pains and nausea symptoms which accompany it, and the sure knowledge that an alien being was growing inside your body, and would surely hatch out in a gout of your blood amid your agonized screams? Fuck me running. It would scare the living shit out of a sane person.

I think that's where The Little Mermaid comes in, Cdog. As a fish, she would have been able to give birth to hundreds of tiny eggs with no pain whatsoever. But to obtain true happiness, she has to leave that life behind, marry a prince, and make-do with a human reproductive system.

 

[Guest]

One more point: I read the fairytale books with truly artistic illustrations (already aged books in the 50's) that always helped my erotic imagination. I didn't know it at the time but later realized I had an erotic imagination at a very young age.

Perdita

 

[shereads]

One more point: I read the fairytale books with truly artistic illustrations (already aged books in the 50's) that always helped my erotic imagination. I didn't know it at the time but later realized I had an erotic imagination at a very young age.

Perdita

Some of your favorites are probably here: http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/illustrations/index.html

 

[Guest]

Sher, thank you! I'd forgotten about The Little Mermaid and how I first saw her barebreasted. P.

 

[shereads]

A pre-Disney "Sleeping Beauty":

 

[Guest]

A pre-Disney "Sleeping Beauty"

She looks like she's having a very good dream. P.

 

[shereads]

Secondly, while reading the annotations for The Princess and the Pea, I did find a very strong reference to S&M

How did I miss that? I'll have to read closer. I need an excuse for certain urges, and I'd like to trace them to early childhood influences so they won't be my fault.



I do remember wondering why the prince wouldn't marry her unless she found the sleeping arrangements uncomfortable, but I just thought he was being unreasonable.

 

[nushu2]

Okay, I admit it. Tinkerbell has a restraining order on me.

 

[shereads]

Okay, I admit it. Tinkerbell has a restraining order on me.

 

[shereads]

Thumbelina. How did I forget Thumbelina? She was tiny enough to be carried around in one hand by a big, strong prince, and I thought that would be perfect. I didn't know anything about male anatomy, of course. Mighty Mouse had nothing under those tights of his, and Ken was also featureless down there. So, as far as I knew, nothing stood between Thumbelina and romance except for the field mouse who insisted he would marry her - and later, disappointingly, the "tiny white-skinned prince."





Timeline of Fairytales from SurLaLunefairytales.com:

A.D. 100-200

The myth, Cupid and Psyche, is written by Apuleius and included in his Metamorphoses (also known as The Golden Ass). Some scholars consider this to be the first literary fairy tale, very similar in nature to Beauty and the Beast.

A.D. 200-300

A Hindu collection of tales, the Panchatantra, is written. Some of these tales are thought to be forerunners to a few European fairy tales.

850-860
China

The first known literary version of Cinderella.

Circa 1300

Gesta Romanorum, a Latin work, is produced. It is a collection of tales and anecdotes thought to have influenced William Shakespeare and Edmund Spenser, author of The Faerie Queen.

Circa 1500

One Thousand and One Arabian Nights is first recorded.

1550 & 1553
Italy

Gianfrancesco Straparola publishes in two volumes, Le Piacevoli Notti or The Pleasant Nights, also known as The Facetious Nights and The Delightful Nights. The first volume appeared in France as early as 1560 and the second in 1573.

1634-6
Italy

Giambattista Basile writes Il Pentamerone, also known as Lo cunto de le cunti (The Tale of Tales).

1690-1710
France

The French Salons are filled with fairy tale writing, primarily by women writers. The most prolific and influential is Marie-Catherine D'Aulnoy.

1696-1698
France

Marie-Catherine D'Aulnoy publishes four volumes of fairy tales. They are translated into English in 1699.

1697
France

Charles Perrault's Histoires ou Contes du temps passe, also known as Mother Goose Tales, is published in Paris. The tales enjoy instant success. Some of the tales included in this collection are Cinderella, The Sleeping Beauty, Little Red Riding Hood, Bluebeard, and Puss in Boots.

1729
Great Britain

Robert Samber translates into English and publishes Perrault's Histories, or Tales of Times Past. They are a hit and become some of the most popular fairy tales of all time.

1740
France

Madame Gabrielle de Villeneuve writes a 362 page version of Beauty and the Beast which appears in La jeune ameriquaine, et les contes marins. This version is not intended for children with its many storylines, length, and subject matter.

1756
France

Madame Le Prince de Beaumont publishes her own considerably shorter version of Beauty and the Beast. This version is the best well-known and most used as the basis for later interpretations of the tale. It is written for a young audience, with didactic messages and a simpler storyline. This is the first example of a literary fairy tale being written specifically for children.

1812 & 1815
Germany

Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm publish volumes one (1812) and two (1815) of Kinder und Hausmarchen (Childhood and Household Tales). Popular tales from the collection include The Frog King, Hansel and Gretel, Rumpelstiltskin and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

1823
Great Britain

Editor Edgar Taylor publishes the first English translation by his brother Edward Taylor of the Grimms' tales in German Popular Stories. The book is illustrated by George Cruikshank.

1835
Denmark

Hans Christian Andersen's Fairy Tales Told for Children is published. Many of the tales are original stories, but a few are based on traditional folklore, including The Wild Swans and The Princess on the Pea.

1845
Norway

Norwegian Folk Tales, collected by Peter Christen Asbjornsen and Jorgen Moe is published in 1845. The collection becomes exceptionally popular after the second edition appears in 1852. The first illustrated edition, featuring the work of Erik Werenskiold and Theodor Kittelsen, appears in 1879. Two of the most famous tales from this collection are East of the Sun and West of the Moon and The Three Billy Goats Gruff.

1848
Great Britain

The first English translation by Edward Taylor of Giambattista Basile's Il Pentamerone is published. The illustrations are by George Cruikshank.

1866
Russia

Aleksandr Afanasyev collects and publishes his first volume of Russian fairy tales.

1867
France

Gustave Dore's illustrations for Perrault's fairy tales are first published in Les Contes de Perrault, dessins par Gustave Dore.

1867-76
England

Walter Crane publishes his color illustrations of many fairy tales in his Toybook series, including Beauty and the Beast, Bluebeard, Sleeping Beauty, Puss in Boots, and Cinderella.

1882
England

Walter Crane illustrates his sister Lucy Crane's translation of Grimms' fairy tales. The book is intended to highlight Crane's illustrative work more than to present a new translation of the tales into English.

1889
England

Andrew Lang publishes the first of his twelve fairy books, The Blue Fairy Book. Most of the illustrations in the books are drawn by H. J. Ford. The twelfth and final book, The Lilac Fairy Book, will be published in 1910. The books remain popular for gathering tales from numerous sources, essentially presenting multicultural fairy tale collections long before multicultural becomes a buzz word a hundred years later.

1890
Russia

Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky's The Sleeping Beauty premieres in St. Petersburg, Russia on January 15, 1890. Choreography is by Marius Petipa and the book is by Marius Petipa and Ivan Vsevolojsky. Some of Tchaikovsky's score will later appear in Walt Disney's adaptation of the story.

1890
Great Britain

Joseph Jacobs publishes English Fairy Tales, later followed by More English Fairy Tales, Celtic Fairy Tales, Indian Fairy Tales, and European Folk and Fairy Tales. All of the books are illustrated by John Batten.

1893
Great Britain

Marian Roalfe Cox publishes her book, Cinderella: Three Hundred and Forty-five Variants of Cinderella, Catskin, and Cap O' Rushes. The book discusses many tales which have not yet appeared in English and indirectly nominates Cinderella as the most common fairy tale theme around the world.

1893
Germany

Engelbert Humperdinck's opera, Hansel und Gretel (Hansel and Gretel), premieres. Richard Strauss directs it in Weimar on December 23, 1893. The libretto is by Adelheid Wette, after the fairy story by the Grimm brothers in Kinder- und Hausmärchen.

1909
Great Britain

Arthur Rackham's black and white illustrations for Grimm's Fairy Tales from 1900 are enlarged and recolored, printed in a deluxe edition which solidifies his standing as one of the most successful illustrators during the Golden Age of children's books illustration. He will continue to illustrate fairy tales throughout his career.

1910
Germany

Finnish scholar Antti Aarne publishes The Types of the Folktale. A revised edition is published in 1928. Later, Stith Thompson translates and expands it into English in 1961.

1910
Great Britain

Edmund Dulac's illustrations for Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch's The Sleeping Beauty, and Other Fairy Tales is published as a gift book. The illustrations are luminous watercolors and show why Dulac was second only to Arthur Rackham in popularity as an illustrator. The book is followed the next year by his illustrations for Stories from Hans Andersen.

1911
Hungary

Bela Bartok's opera, Duke Bluebeard's Castle, premieres. It is based on the libretti of Bela Bela Balázs, a Hungarian poet.

1911
Great Britain

Warwick Goble illustrates Stories from the Pentamerone, one of the few English translations of Basile's work. Goble produces some of the best illustrations of the Italian tales. He later illustrates The Fairy Book (1923) which contains many well-known fairy tales.

1937
United States

Walt Disney's first feature length animated film is released, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. The film is a commercial success and leads to the creation of several more Disney fairy tale adaptations. The seven dwarfs now have names, thanks to Walt Disney.

1945
Russia

The premiere of Sergei Prokofiev's ballet, Cinderella, is presented by the Bolshoi Ballet at the Bolshoi Theatre in Moscow on November 15, 1945. The libretto is by Nikolai Volkov and choreography by Rotislav Zakharov.

1946
France

Jean Cocteau's film, La Belle et la bête (Beauty and the Beast) is released.

Dec. 16, 2004
Literotica

At 3:39 a.m., Shereads runs out of ways to procrastinate. Having dodged a dull assignment by futzing around in the AH for an entire day, she accepts the inevitable and decides to get some work done. But first, a snack and a few minutes of CNN Headline News...