Well, I guess I'll be clinging to my EV for as long as humanly possible

Le Jacquelope

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The next generation of vehicles, EV or not, may have the "Fascism inside!" logo slapped on them:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090102/ap_on_re_us/mileage_tax/print;_ylt=AkSYn.qDrN66gjZAWk3AxzpH2ocA

Oregon looks at taxing mileage instead of gasoline
By RYAN KOST, Associated Press Writer Ryan Kost, Associated Press Writer 31 mins ago

PORTLAND, Ore. – Oregon is among a growing number of states exploring ways to tax drivers based on the number of miles they drive instead of how much gas they use, even going so far as to install GPS monitoring devices in 300 vehicles. The idea first emerged nearly 10 years ago as Oregon lawmakers worried that fuel-efficient cars such as gas-electric hybrids could pose a threat to road upkeep, which is paid for largely with gasoline taxes.

"I'm glad we're taking a look at it before the potholes get so big that we can't even get out of them," said Leroy Younglove, a Portland driver who participated in a recent pilot program.

The proposal is not without critics, including drivers who are concerned about privacy and others who fear the tax could eliminate the financial incentive for buying efficient vehicles.

But Oregon is ahead of the nation in exploring the concept, even though it will probably be years before any mileage tax is adopted.

Congress is talking about it, too. A congressional commission has envisioned a system similar to the prototype Oregon tested in 2006-2007.

The National Commission on Surface Transportation Infrastructure Financing is considering calling for higher gas taxes to keep highways, bridges and transit programs in good shape.

But over the long term, commission members say, the nation should consider taxing mileage rather than gasoline as drivers use more fuel-efficient and electric vehicles.

As cars burn less fuel, "the gas tax isn't going to fill the bill," said Rep. Peter DeFazio of Oregon, a member of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.

The next Congress "could begin to set the stage, perhaps looking at some much more robust pilot programs, to begin the research, to work with manufacturers."

Gov. Ted Kulongoski has included development money for the tax in his budget proposal, and interest is growing in a number of other states.

Governors in Idaho and Rhode Island have considered systems that would require drivers to report their mileage when they register vehicles.

In North Carolina last month, a panel suggested charging motorists a quarter-cent for every mile as a substitute for the gas tax.

James Whitty, the Oregon Department of Transportation employee in charge of the state's effort, said he's also heard talk of mileage tax proposals in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Colorado and Minnesota.

"There is kind of a coalition that's naturally forming around this," he said.

Also fueling the search for alternatives is the political difficulty of raising gasoline taxes.

The federal gas tax has not been raised since 1993, and nearly two dozen states have not changed their taxes since 1997, according to the American Road & Transportation Builders Association.

In Oregon's pilot program, officials equipped 300 vehicles with GPS transponders that worked wirelessly with service station pumps, allowing drivers to pay their mileage tax just as they do their gas tax.

Whitty said the test, which involved two gas stations in the Portland area, proved the idea could work.

Though the GPS devices did not track the cars' locations in great detail, they could determine when a driver had left certain zones, such as the state of Oregon. They also kept track of the time the driving was done, so a premium could be charged for rush-hour mileage.

The proposal envisions a gradual change, with manufacturers installing the technology in new vehicles because retrofitting old cars would be too expensive. Owners of older vehicles would continue to pay gasoline taxes.

The difference in tax based on mileage or on gasoline would be small — "pennies per transaction at the pump," Whitty said.

But the mileage tax still faces several major obstacles.

For one, Oregon accounts for only a small part of auto sales, so the state can't go it alone. A multistate or national system would be needed.

Another concern is that such devices could threaten privacy. Whitty said he and his task force have assured people that the program does not track detailed movement and that driving history is not stored and cannot be accessed by law enforcement agencies.

"I think most people will come to realize there is really no tracking issue and will continue to buy new cars," Whitty said, noting that many cell phones now come equipped with GPS, which has not deterred customers.

Others are worried that a mileage tax would undermine years of incentives to switch toward more fuel-efficient vehicles.

"It doesn't seem fair," said Paul Niedergang of Portland, that a hybrid would be taxed as much as his Dodge pickup. "I just think the gas tax needs to be updated."

Lynda Williams, also of Portland, was not immediately sold on the idea but said it was worth consideration.

"We all have to be open-minded," she said. "Our current system just isn't working."
 
http://news14.com/content/local_new...ess-may-increase-federal-gas-tax/Default.aspx

2:43 PM
Congress may increase federal gas tax

By: Gavin MacRoberts

FAYETTEVILLE – A U.S. congressional commission is getting ready to recommend raising the federal gas tax, which could cause gas prices to rise.

The Associated Press reported that the commission plans to recommend raising the tax by 10 cents a gallon for gasoline and 12 to 15 cents for diesel.

The finance commission is expected to present their final report to Congress sometime later this month.

When gas was more than $4 a gallon, Roger Curry had to change how he commuted to work.

"I left my SUV at home and I drove a little commuter car that is more fuel efficient," Curry said.

Curry doesn't like the idea of paying more in taxes for gas, but a congressional commission said there isn't enough money coming in to pay for road and bridge maintenance because drivers are hitting the highway less or driving more fuel efficient cars.

John Smith said he is willing to pay more if it means improved roads and bridges.

“Our system of roads are in very dangerous shape,” Smith said. “The bridges across the country are found to be very deficient. I know that more money has to be raised somehow. I don't know how we are going to raise money other than to put this tax on."

Raising the gas tax is not the only option the commission discussed. They also threw around a mileage tax in which a computer would be installed in your car that would measure how many miles you drive and how much it would cost in tax. Currently it is being tested in six cities across the nation.

Smith said he is worried a mileage would hit the trucking industry the hardest.

"I think that would be a terrible burden on the trucking industry, to be honest with you,” he said. “And ultimately, if that burden is put on the trucking industry, we are all going to feel the bite."

Curry said the mileage tax would hit him hard every time he drives across four states to visit his son serving in the army.

"That would probably hit me harder than the 10 cent a gallon that they are talking about right now, to be honest,” he said. “So I really don't like that one as well either, driving an SUV."
 
Isn't there something wrong with tax avoidance, LT, or is it just when someone else is doing the avoiding?
 
is the underlying rationale of the fuel tax based upon hydrocarbons consumed, or wear and tear upon highways for which hydrocarbon consumption is a rough proxy?
 
is the underlying rationale of the fuel tax based upon hydrocarbons consumed, or wear and tear upon highways for which hydrocarbon consumption is a rough proxy?
Pretty much. The wear and tear on the roads is a highly tangible, provable problem.

You don't have to be a Republican or Democrat to notice if there's a problem of too much money going out for roads and not enough coming in.

The partisanship lies in what to do about it.

The way I see it so far, the level of Hell are as follows:
First level (least horrible but still fire and brimstone tyle bad) = increase the gas tax
Second level = more toll roads
Third level (most horrible) = install GPS on all cars and inflict a mileage tax (major invasion of privacy, common police state fascist tactic)
 
Pretty much. The wear and tear on the roads is a highly tangible, provable problem.

You don't have to be a Republican or Democrat to notice if there's a problem of too much money going out for roads and not enough coming in.

The partisanship lies in what to do about it.

The way I see it so far, the level of Hell are as follows:
First level (least horrible but still fire and brimstone tyle bad) = increase the gas tax
Second level = more toll roads
Third level (most horrible) = install GPS on all cars and inflict a mileage tax (major invasion of privacy, common police state fascist tactic)

i don't want GPS.

i could live with toll roads. they make me bristle selfishly, but i undertsand them.
 
Here's an idea. Require all minority-party politicians to spend time every week filling in potholes.
 
Pretty much. The wear and tear on the roads is a highly tangible, provable problem.

You don't have to be a Republican or Democrat to notice if there's a problem of too much money going out for roads and not enough coming in.

The partisanship lies in what to do about it.

The way I see it so far, the level of Hell are as follows:
First level (least horrible but still fire and brimstone tyle bad) = increase the gas tax
Second level = more toll roads
Third level (most horrible) = install GPS on all cars and inflict a mileage tax (major invasion of privacy, common police state fascist tactic)

There are more levels of taxation to consider:

4th level = time spent in driveway
5th level = drive-thru, waiting at red light, and idling while car is running.
6th level = sitting still with no occupants tax.
:D
 
i don't want GPS.

i could live with toll roads. they make me bristle selfishly, but i undertsand them.
I'd rather take the gas tax. I mean, one of my 2 SUV's is a hybrid.

Toll roads can also serve as privacy busters, too. Police can tap those. So can others with less scrupulous access.

The idiot in the article that said GPS can't be accessed by cops, though... now there's an idiot's idiot...
 
I'd rather take the gas tax. I mean, one of my 2 SUV's is a hybrid.

Toll roads can also serve as privacy busters, too. Police can tap those. So can others with less scrupulous access.

The idiot in the article that said GPS can't be accessed by cops, though... now there's an idiot's idiot...

Who said GPS cannot be accessed by cops?
 
I'd rather take the gas tax. I mean, one of my 2 SUV's is a hybrid.

Toll roads can also serve as privacy busters, too. Police can tap those. So can others with less scrupulous access.

The idiot in the article that said GPS can't be accessed by cops, though... now there's an idiot's idiot...

well, if you're using hydrocarbon consumption as a proxy for mileage, hybrids and stuff shift the equation. maybe gas pumps could identify the model of car and adjust the tax accordingly.

what if you have an all electric vehicle?
 
well, if you're using hydrocarbon consumption as a proxy for mileage, hybrids and stuff shift the equation. maybe gas pumps could identify the model of car and adjust the tax accordingly.

what if you have an all electric vehicle?

That is a pretty good idea. Yet the gas pumps would be open to manipulation.
 
well, if you're using hydrocarbon consumption as a proxy for mileage, hybrids and stuff shift the equation. maybe gas pumps could identify the model of car and adjust the tax accordingly.
There's a solution... as scary and invasive as it is.

what if you have an all electric vehicle?
Then you're lucky. :D

Mileage taxes penalize electric vehicles at a time when we desperately need more of them. But it's a problem that has to be addressed eventually... when EVs are the only thing on the road.

But then what does the Government do when people can't pay the mileage tax and start walking? :confused:
 
There's a solution... as scary and invasive as it is.


Then you're lucky. :D

Mileage taxes penalize electric vehicles at a time when we desperately need more of them. But it's a problem that has to be addressed eventually... when EVs are the only thing on the road.

But then what does the Government do when people can't pay the mileage tax and start walking? :confused:

shoes don't wear the road to near the same degree.

i was wondering about the intrusiveness of pumps that could identify vehicles. you could make it sort of blind. if you had the only hummer in the city, though, you're fucked.

not nearly as invasive as GPS though. holy shit.
 
shoes don't wear the road to near the same degree.

i was wondering about the intrusiveness of pumps that could identify vehicles. you could make it sort of blind. if you had the only hummer in the city, though, you're fucked.

not nearly as invasive as GPS though. holy shit.
It won't be the shoes that wear down the road then - it'll be time itself. Plants under the road do an alarming amount of damage over time. And when that time passes... someone has to pay for it.

As for blinding pumps... hey, cool, as long as you don't get caught. If they get down to identifying cars individually instead of by group (VIN), look out. Identity theft on meth.

As for GPS... this dude obviously has never heard of a subpoena...

"Whitty said he and his task force have assured people that the program does not track detailed movement and that driving history is not stored and cannot be accessed by law enforcement agencies."

WTF. Ignorance at its worst.
 
It won't be the shoes that wear down the road then - it'll be time itself. Plants under the road do an alarming amount of damage over time. And when that time passes... someone has to pay for it.

As for blinding pumps... hey, cool, as long as you don't get caught. If they get down to identifying cars individually instead of by group (VIN), look out. Identity theft on meth.

As for GPS... this dude obviously has never heard of a subpoena...

"Whitty said he and his task force have assured people that the program does not track detailed movement and that driving history is not stored and cannot be accessed by law enforcement agencies."

WTF. Ignorance at its worst.

if it's just shoes a path works.

cars could could be certified for average MPG and no other identifying information provided. of course, that depends on your trust level. care to cast an electronic ballot in ohio?

as to the latter, that's a primary reaon i would never have on-star or some other on board navigation system. that stuff gets subpoenaed all the time.
 
if it's just shoes a path works.

cars could could be certified for average MPG and no other identifying information provided. of course, that depends on your trust level. care to cast an electronic ballot in ohio?

as to the latter, that's a primary reaon i would never have on-star or some other on board navigation system. that stuff gets subpoenaed all the time.
And insurance companies are forever and a day screaming for black boxes.

Installed IN cars during production... :rolleyes:
 
Battery powered cars and hybrids are history. Hydrogen fuel cells are where it's at, people.
 
Battery powered cars and hybrids are history. Hydrogen fuel cells are where it's at, people.
A hydrogen-based economy would be a good idea.

Hydrogen-electric hybrids would be an even better idea.

Hydrogen could be taxed before it gets to the "pump".
 
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