Welcome to Prague - Feedback?

fcdc

Really Really Experienced
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Posts
491
NB: The story was posted before edits that were submitted went through (despite having sent an E-mail asking for a hold until the edits were looked at), so please rate on the below text, not on the stuff that's posted. Comments/critiques welcomed.

Also refer to the WTF? feedback thread if you have trouble with the title. I think the Rubin quote is pretty obvious myself, especially seeing as the 'Welcome to Prague' sign really, truly existed in real life, but what do I know? :) The story has nothing to do with the city of Prague itself, more with the sign and the 'Czechago' comment (which was meant to draw a parallel between Eastern Bloc countries and Machine-run Chicago.)

Welcome To Prague
by fcdc

"Who but a bad, fearless, strungout, crazy motherfucker would come to Czechago? And we were motherfucking bad. We pissed and shit and fucked in public; we crossed streets on red lights; and we opened Coke bottles with our teeth. We were constantly stoned or tripping on every drug known to man. We were the outlaw forces of Amerika displaying ourselves flagrantly on a world stage." — Jerry Rubin.

The city was burnt and beaten, but it hunched alertly before Connie, a vast, bleak expanse of carbureted, incinerated metal. Some iron slabs stood tall and blunt like monoliths, while others had been forged and twisted into fanciful Gothic forms. She stood near the departure queue and heard the jake brake screech on the next bus in line to depart Chicago, many yards from where the buses heading into the city had dropped her off. Her shoulder ached already from having carried the knapsack through the rabbit warren of the bus station from the arrival depot.

The Loop was bustling, but impersonal and hurried: Nobody spoke a word to her, and no cabs came to pick her up. Workmen crowded the stations, but she could only overhear their gossip, not join in. They said both of the main cabbie companies were striking, and she wasn't surprised. Not a single taxi had driven past her since she had headed out the revolving door of the station, and she was dead in the middle of Chicago, surrounded by faceless robots and workaday zombies, and only a few hippie stragglers, dressed in the dregs of Salvation Army gear.

This was not what she had expected upon heading to cover the Convention.

She hadn't been writing for the paper a long time, but they had sent her on assignment anyway. Chicago was a place she'd wanted to see for a while, and the convention had seemed the perfect way to see it. There was something strangely isolationist about the city, though, and she shivered a little as she left the station, trying to hail a CTA bus to Halsted and the Stock Yards.

#####

Tan and in his early twenties, the guy would have been good-looking if he had gotten a haircut. His dishwater blond hair was stringy and too long, but he was clean for a Yippie, and he could have been handsome a few years ago in a school yearbook. He was about her age, and he had been on the bus to Halsted. She hadn't noticed him, though, so when they went out the front door of the bus, Connie offered the stranger a smile. Visions of Janet Leigh in Psycho flew through her head. This is how bad things start, she thought, but she had already smiled, and he was smiling back by now.

Back at the bus station, the hippies had been dressed far worse than he was. The shoe-length coat, army green and a few sizes too big, was of course a requirement, but his jeans were clean, and only one knee was ripped. Besides the too-long hair, he had a nice face, with deep-set, sparkling eyes and an energetic grin. 'Property is Theft,' proclaimed a patch on his motorcycle bag, and true to his word, it arced wide around him as he turned away from the bus, making him an easy target for pickpockets.

"Cop?"

She shook her head.

"Cop's secretary. You look like a secretary."

Another headshake. Maybe he was teasing her. She wasn't sure.

"What, then?"

"A reporter. From Cleveland."

That got a reaction, but not the one that Connie had expected. She had expected her occupation to be met with either boredom or questions of where her loyalties were. Instead, a flicker of impressed delight twinkled in his eye. "Huh. How 'bout that. I used to write for my school paper." He said that like he thought it might impress her, but continued when she didn't reply. "Tom Moreno."

"Connie Schultz."

"That's a hell of a newspaper name." He might have been teasing her again; his tone was suitably light, but his face was set in a hard line. Lips quirked upwards, and he repeated, "Connie Schultz, it's nice to meet you. I don't suppose you can get me entrance to the Center the next few days. I'd love to meet McCarthy."

So would I, Connie thought, but she shook her head. "You've got as good a chance as me. I'm just going to be in the press box. You'd get a better view on TV."

Tom didn't seem bothered by the denial. He started walking, the army bag swinging alongside him, his booted feet clunking as their metal soles hit the pavement. A hand reached up absently, scraping away his long hair from his face. "I can promise you something better to watch than a whole bunch of suited fascists and a few honest guys. Come with me."

Was this how Peter Pan had gotten Wendy into so much trouble? He had the same boyish enthusiasm as the eternal youth, and she stared at him for a long moment, feeling squarer than she had ever imagined.

"It'll be an adventure," he added.

Connie nodded, although her head felt light and she felt dizzy. "All right."

His grin broadened. "All right!" he repeated, although it was more approval than agreement.

#####

If this was where they were living, Connie wondered how they could have made it through the week. From the look of their camp, though, they had done just that, and she grimaced at the sight of it. The hippies were supposed to be all about saving the planet, but the litter and debris and the tents that sat there, scraggly and straggling, made her think of only destruction.

Margaret Mead would have a field day in this camp, she thought, and watched Tom as he stopped at one tent to say something quickly and quietly to them, and murmured to another group of people. There was a strange feeling of conspiracy, something that bothered her but that she couldn't quite put her finger on.

"What's going on, Tom?" They'd stopped off for Cokes before they made their way to the parks on Clark Street, and she took a sip from her glass bottle as she waited for his reply. "These are your people. Got that. They're your friends. But there's something going on."

He scoffed at her question. "There's not enough going on. Not yet." He clapped his hands together, rubbing them as if he was a stage villain in preparation for a deathblow, and she wondered about that. These folks were as weird as she had been led to believe, but at least they were earnest, and at least they would make for good writing.

He stopped at a canvas-and-pegs structure that she might have believed to be a tent if it hadn't been in the process of falling apart. No one was in there, and he flopped out on the expanse, arms and legs akimbo.

"There will be something going on soon," he told the ceiling of the tent, and she moved to sit down next to him, Indian-style, resting her hands on her knees. She didn't dare touch anything in the park. God only knew what had contaminated it. "I'm not one of the big guys, but I've got my own stuff going on." He propped himself up on an elbow, studying her. "Get ready. The times, they are a-changing." The Dylan quote was sarcastic.

She had expected to be in a hotel near the International Amphitheatre, and now she was ten miles away from the convention, in some crappy park with a stranger she'd just met, but she felt less bothered by it than she had expected to be. "The convention?"

He nodded. "Fuck 'em all, man. McCarthy's all right, but they're all fucks."

She longed to tell him that the hatred solved nothing, but she would only earn scoffing. She kept her mouth shut, as much as she longed to talk.

Silent and seemingly thoughtful, Tom reached up into the ceiling of the tent, drawing down a plastic sandwich bag. She thought it was strange that nobody had stolen anything. At least the hippies and Yippies were honest — grungy, yes, but they weren't thieves. He held the bag up with pinched fingertips, showing it to her.

"You ever —?" Tom began, but she cut him off by snagging the bag. At least she would have the opportunity to surprise him now.

Tip and papers naturally followed, even if Tom handed them over uncertainly, unsure of what she was about to do. Moments later, he clearly was impressed that she knew how to roll her own joint. He sat watching her silently, motionless, but as she licked the paper to glue it together, he let out a low, impressed whistle. When she set fire to it and stuck it in her mouth, he told her, "I didn't think you'd ever smoked before. You look like you work for the Man."

"I do," she said, and exhaled.

#####

War. That was all she saw when she made it to the convention center. A red-lettered sign, its font jagged and harsh, caught her eye: "Welcome to Prague." Its holder was unremarkable, a Yippie with a flying pig button, and she felt straitlaced in the crowd despite wearing jeans and boots.

The barbed wire and checkpoints turned Connie off as much as they must have annoyed the demonstrators that swarmed around her. She had a press pass, but she was tired, and not looking forward to being searched. Some kid, barely fifteen and with bad teeth and acne, grinned at her from amongst the mob. She turned away from him.

"Up against the wall, motherfuckers!" She couldn't be sure if that was a cop or a dissident. She figured it didn't matter. The crowd surged forward, and she heard the convention building roar with anger, saw it bristling like a wild beast. Carl Sandburg was right. Chicago was alive.

#####

"Here," he said, finishing a bottle of beer with one hand, and holding up a piece of paper to her mouth with the other. "Taste it."

Connie bit the paper and held it on her tongue to let the acid dissolve, and then moved to kiss him. It was a pathetic place to make out, here in this trash-strewn, freewheeling park, and she could instantly envision cops with batons rapping on the fabric on the tent, but no one came.

Tom's lips met hers, and his eyes were large, unearthly, luminous blue. His tongue touched her lips and then parted them, and she let the blotter paper rest on her lip. He tasted like cheap Schlitz beer and the earthy flavor of marijuana, and she wanted to pull away at first, but he was insistent, and she was more willing than she had thought. As they broke the kiss, he slid the blotter paper off her lip and swallowed it, blinking hard.

"I bet you've never had sex in public," he said suddenly, his voice half-muffled as he stripped off the T-shirt proclaiming the Monterey Pop Festival. While he wasn't a boxer, his body wasn't bad, beneath the shirt. He was tanned at least to the waist, and he was built as if he had done some manual labor in the past.

Connie laughed abruptly. She didn't know what to say. Her mouth moved for a few moments before she could find her voice. "You're stoned, you asshole."

His mouth rose in a twitchy little grin. "And high, yeah. So are you. You still haven't had sex out here." He patted the ground, his voice easy. "Come on."

There was a strange hopefulness in the request. Was she high? She didn't feel high. Was LSD supposed to kick in right away? She knew he was on something, had known it from the moment his pupils started to dilate, and she wondered if that was what she'd look like in a little while.

"Free love and all that, huh?" She started to unbutton her blouse.

"Something like that," Tom replied carelessly, watching her alertly.

She dropped her shirt atop a Schlitz can, and didn't worry about it. It wasn't as if she was going to the convention center today. She had meant to, but things had gone strangely from the moment that she had set foot in the Loop. She wasn't too concerned about it. Let the editor yell at her tomorrow; she felt alive now, and she could feel her pulse racing in her veins as she reached around to the small of her back to unfasten her bra.

He watched her, his head cocked a little, birdlike, high but at least able to focus. She thought so, anyway. She pulled the bra away, the hot August air hitting her collarbone and the top of her small breasts. She had never thought of herself as particularly attractive, but he was gazing at her appreciatively, lids lowered above his too-wide eyes.

Connie felt that she should apologize. "I'm sorry that I'm not that — "

He slid his hand downwards, and she felt her heart sink into her stomach. She had had sex with her boyfriend after the senior prom, and had slept with a few guys since then, but it had been a good year or so. She felt tense, nervous at her own inexperience.

"If the cops come, Tom..." Her voice was a warning.

Tom shook his head confidently. "They won't come. They don't care about us." His hand drifted off from where it had lain, atop her bare stomach. "If you don't want to... your hair is on fire."

She knew from the solemn intonation that it was just a vision from the drugs, and ignored it. "N-no! I want to." She hated the stammer that started the words, and ran her tongue against the flat palm of her hand in preparation for his needs.

"Then shut up," Tom repeated lightly, grinning, but there was a definite order in his words, so she fell quiet. His hand returned to where it had flown from before, and pressed downwards, sliding between the fabric of her jeans and the warm skin just above her legs.

Connie's hands found the buckle of the belt around his pants and unbuckled them, whipping the belt off with an audible rustling. She fumbled with the zipper, but managed to reach inside and get a grip on him. He was already starting to harden, and she freed him from his jeans, her hand stroking the underside of his shaft, softly, teasingly. His own hand had dipped lower upon her, and she could see it moving in her pants, his touch sharp, tough, demanding. He was a fighter, and not as much of a pacifist as he claimed to be, she realized, and scooted herself closer to him, her legs twining with his.

Every stroke he made between her legs brought a small amount of pain with the pleasure, and she let out a half-choked cry as his touch built up, quick and intense. The hand atop her clitoris paused for a moment, before it unzipped her jeans and moved lower still. His fingers played with her labia, toying with going inside, but not venturing there yet. She was thankful for the lack of direct stimulation; his masturbation of her had been intense, and she was already starting to ache.

"You look like a goddess," he murmured to her as his tongue traced the outline of her lips. She couldn't figure out if that was hallucination or the truth.

She lowered her lips to his shaft. "Thank you," she said, and she was surprised to hear that she meant it. She licked him lightly, letting her tongue drag even as her lips popped off the surface. He moaned, and set down two elbows to stabilize himself, his hand drawing out from inside her, fingertips glistening.

The tent was gone, then. Chicago was gone, and they were in a field somewhere far away. Tom's skin was perfect, and he glowed. His hair was on fire too. She put her back down, and strangely enough thought for a moment that she was floating on water, not on grass. Strange designs etched themselves in the man's body, and she watched them for patterns as they shifted and transformed. Her mouth grew drier. She started to shake, and he drew her close, sliding out of his pants. His cock didn't look any different than Connie's boyfriend's had, just a little more tanned and a little wider, standing fully hard.

Maybe she should have brought a condom, but it wasn't important enough for her to ask him if he had one, either.

"Never been high before?" His hand held one leg aside as he slid towards the wetness between her legs. "It's just a little Lucy. Nothing dangerous." A devilish grin stole across his face, and he looked like Clark Gable before he looked like himself again. "Except me."

He punctuated the words with a sudden, sharp thrust, as needy and fierce as his hands had been on the surface only moments ago. Connie cried out, and her cries sounded like the calling of a bird looking for its mate. Tom said something in response, but all that she heard was cooing, soothing and facile.

Tom drove himself up within her, thrusting, and it took her a couple of tense seconds to realize that he was not going to hurt her. His hands rested on her shoulders, and he guided her to the ground atop her shirt, the Schlitz can crunching beneath her shoulder blade. He stayed within her, and then he started to move even sharper and faster. It was the giveaway of desperation, and she wondered what made him so afraid. His hands played with her breasts, smoothed her stomach, and she held him close, her lips finding his, his teeth nibbling on his lower lip.

"It's all right," Connie said. He looked relieved. What had she said to reassure him? Tom moved more confidently now, whatever the case, holding her close. She kissed him, and moved her lips onto his jawbone and neck, lips curving around his jaw line, tasting the hot, sweat-slicked flesh beneath her lips. He showered. He tasted like it, perspiring but at least clean. She was thankful for that much.

His thrusts quickened now, back to the same sharp pace at which he had started out. Electricity raced through her veins, and her breathing became shallow as he thrust himself inside her, bobbing on the surface. Something sparked within her, and she shivered, stiffening, her feet pointing to the edge of the tent. Her light breaths became gasps, and she saw the tent sparkle before her eyes.

A scant few seconds or maybe hours later, Tom groaned and released himself inside her, throbbing inside her, his lips pressing down hard against her mouth as he lost control. She held him tight inside and against her, and stammered out what she'd realized: "Get me pregnant and you can skip the draft."

He would have responded, looking stunned at the idea. He stared at her, high and orgasmic, and his face was slack and stupid. His lips tried to form words, but it was taking a few moments for him to think. To Connie, as the drugs surged forward eagerly to replace the orgasm that they had fueled, something else would have to happen. They'd been high together, and they'd fucked in the middle of the park. They would have to create a new sensation.

Tom pried himself out of the haze first. He didn't address her offer. He had a new concern in mind. "We fucking act," he told her, his voice sharp and angry. "Tonight. We go with the rest of them to the Hilton. You want a story? You'll get it."

#####

The Jackson Street Bridge was unguarded. The first two bridges that they had visited were thronged with Guardsmen and .30 caliber machine guns, and they had fled those, but now, Connie could hear Tom laughing in delight that they had a way down to the convention center again. The peace platform had been voted down, said the people with the transistor radios.

Shit had started to happen.

Things were going down.

Connie felt that familiar reporter's urge for something to happen, some sort of story to the events, and as she saw the Poor People's Party moving south on Michigan, and felt herself run towards it with the others, she knew that she was in the middle of the story. Next to her, Tom, long blond hair flying out around him, was running, not paying any attention to her. The Hilton sat near the bi-level street, and she could already see a gang of demonstrators there. They would join the group, and what would happen then? A protest, she was sure of it. Something angry, loud, and just as alive as things had been at the convention center. Tom's eyes were shining again, and this time it wasn't due to being high.

"Stop right there, you fucks!"

The cops moved in, just after the Poor People's Party filed past. Their shields and batons were raised, like the weaponry of villagers holding off a wolf pack in some old movie. "They go. You stay."

Connie thought she would hear one person telling the police to fuck off. She heard about twenty or thirty voices, including Tom's, next to her. She could not bring herself to say those words, despite Tom's elbow in her side, and she just watched in horror, unable to act, unable to identify herself as a journalist. She wasn't a journalist anymore, though. She was as much a part of this as Tom was, and she would stand here as long as he stood here, she resolved. She would not let him down. She tried to plant her feet in the ground, but her legs buckled dangerously.

The cops made quick work of them, closing in with the force and certainty of something from nature, their riot gear and shields making them strangely unnatural anyway.

She tried to jerk Tom out of the way in time, seeing blackness close in atop them, but the sting of Mace overtook her, and she couldn't hold him away. One of the cop clubs crunched down on the side of his head, and he staggered a little, but didn't fall.

"Tom!" She hadn't known that she could scream that loudly.

He looked towards her, startled, and then shook his head. He looked determined. She couldn't help him. He didn't look scared all of a sudden, and she felt her hope for things to end well drain out of her, replaced only by cold, coursing horror.

Broadcast lights popped on, sending everything into overdrive, and for a moment, she thought they were all ghosts on a distant, alien planet, before she came to her senses.

He weaved a little, and then sprang forward, slightly unfocused from the clubbing he'd received, but quick, hopefully quicker than the cops. For a moment, he looked like he might have gotten the drop on them, but a swift, sharp, second club to the head brought him down before he disappeared in a sea of riot gear and clubs. He didn't cover himself up, though, and didn't try to back away.

The crowd redoubled its efforts, screaming in hoarse, collegiate rage. The tear gas hissed forth again, and Connie couldn't stand anymore, but she didn't run. She just dropped. She had been waiting to drop for a while. Her head smacked the pavement with numbing hardness as her eyes started to cloud up with unconsciousness, and the ground thudded as the protesters moved past, heading towards the Hilton like an atom bomb had exploded behind them.

#####

The hospital was sterile, and as lonely as the city had seemed the moment she had set foot on the street. Machines beeped all around her, nurses coming and going, police tromping through the halls like jackbooted Nazi caricatures. Nobody had bothered to arrest Connie yet; no cops had even come to speak to her. Her press pass had saved her. Her eyes still burned, but at least she could see now, even if tears clouded her eyes. She wasn't sure that all of them were caused by the pepper spray, either.

People were murmuring outside her door. She'd had her reporter's gear returned to her, and her notepad, small and spiral-bound, lay within reach. Her editor was here from Cleveland, and would be in within a few moments to lecture her on how she'd let the whole thing go to her head. The revolution had been televised, and McCarthy, Tom's hero, was in the building. It was a shame that Tom wouldn't get to see him. Connie knew she could write a hell of an article on the guy, and her finger hovered on the button to summon the nurse, but she let it go.

McCarthy isn't the story here, she thought. Connie picked up a pen and started to write in the notepad. "Cook County Jail: Attn. Thomas D. Moreno. Rehabilitative Care." She would have written more, but her editor had turned towards the door, and she couldn't share the last few days with him. She wasn't going to write about it, anyway. They wouldn't understand.

Her smile felt plastic, and her head pounded as she opened her lips to say hello.
 
Hi fcdc...I saw the story on the new list and read it - left a comment (I also gave my 2 cents on Patteran on the discussion forum). I thought you did a nice job. You haven't done a little personal research have you? You did a nice job on the trippy drug scene, didn't overdo it, but gave the impression of being high (mild stuff if only their hair flamed ;) ). There was a lot going on, several layers, and the ending allowed the reader to take it in their own direction, though as in you first one, left it open for continuation. Very well done.
 
The city was burnt and beaten, but it hunched alertly before Connie, a vast, bleak expanse of carbureted, incinerated metal. Was carbureted supposed to be 'carbonized'? Somehow I can't see Holley 1150 carbs hanging from the metal.

She stood near the departure queue and heard the jake brake screech on the next bus in line to depart Chicago A Jacobsen (Jake) Brake is not actually connected to the braking system of a vehicle. It uses the high compression of the engine (diesel) to slow the vehicle down, so no screeching would be heard, just a loud, bap, bap, bap.

The writing is excellent, but again your story does nothing for me emotionally.
 
Excellent writing again.
Question: Who are you writing for? Who is your intended audience?
 
starrkers said:
Excellent writing again.
Question: Who are you writing for? Who is your intended audience?

Intellectual wankers. I'm not worried she'll lure my three readers away. :)
 
drksideofthemoon said:
The city was burnt and beaten, but it hunched alertly before Connie, a vast, bleak expanse of carbureted, incinerated metal. Was carbureted supposed to be 'carbonized'? Somehow I can't see Holley 1150 carbs hanging from the metal.

Nope, carbureted was intentional.

The writing is excellent, but again your story does nothing for me emotionally.

I have a question, in return. You keep on saying this, but don't provide me with any detail as to why the stories don't grab you emotionally. You just say they don't grab you - and that's all well and good, but why don't they? You may not be the optimal reader for my stuff, which is cool, but I'm not sure why they're not appealing emotionally. I mean, what do you expect out of a story that you don't get here?

Question: Who are you writing for? Who is your intended audience?

The same as my normal fiction, people who like the same writers I do: Kosinski, Harlan Ellison, Carl Hiaasen, et al. People who like slightly ironic, honest, "tough" (for lack of a better word) writing. I'm not writing for the romance-novel crowd, for better or worse. I think my audience is fairly distinct and will probably recognize themselves in that description. I have a certain voice and I know what it is, so hopefully people will recognize themselves within that description - or outside of it.
 
fcdc said:
The same as my normal fiction, people who like the same writers I do: Kosinski, Harlan Ellison, Carl Hiaasen, et al. People who like slightly ironic, honest, "tough" (for lack of a better word) writing. I'm not writing for the romance-novel crowd, for better or worse. I think my audience is fairly distinct and will probably recognize themselves in that description. I have a certain voice and I know what it is, so hopefully people will recognize themselves within that description - or outside of it.
The reason I asked was I've noticed each thing you've posted you've put a bunch of explanation of either the references or the intent with it. I was wondering why you felt the need. Either you feel the writing's not strong enough to carry them (and it is), or the readers aren't with you.

I have a similar problem to drkside: the stories don't grab me. I'm trying to figure out why.
There's a level of detachment -I feel like I'm watching through a plate glass window. I can see the characters and hear them, but I don't feel them.
 
starrkers said:
The reason I asked was I've noticed each thing you've posted you've put a bunch of explanation of either the references or the intent with it.

I would not have bothered with the reference explanation for this one except that I got a one-star rating for the stuff that is posted with someone complaining about "Prague" and telling me what a gorgeous city it was and how they didn't see what Prague had to do with the story, and how it wasn't awful there, and etc. etc. etc. (Aka, clearly they didn't read the story.)

ETA: Here is the comment that precipitated my "No, it's not really about Eastern Europe" caveat:

25% vote: What's wrong with Prague?
05/16/07 By: Anonymous in Scotland
I don't get the Prague/Czecago connection. Prague is not some burnt-out hulk, but one of the most beautiful medieval European cities. I believe it is now pulluted with Golden Arches, but other than that I can think of no connection with Chicago. I haven't been there, but I am told on good architechtural authority that my home city of Glasgow is the nearest European city to Chicago - but they are way different!

I was a little aghast at that, as obviously it's fairly clear where the title comes from and why it comes from there to me, and was worried that other people might not have gotten it if this one-star person did not get it. So I figured I would point out that, no, the title does not explicitly say anything about Europe; it's only because the sign was used by protesters and it is a fairly obvious comment about the condition of the city during the convention.

I didn't want a repeat of that wholly irrelevant comment, so I figured I'd head it off at the pass.
 
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I fear you'll get a lot of that kind of thing among the general readership here. ;)

On the detachemnt thing, I'll think further and try and come up with an explanation that flies - I'm fluey at the moment and the brain is really not up to thinking.
 
starrkers said:
I fear you'll get a lot of that kind of thing among the general readership here. ;)

On the detachemnt thing, I'll think further and try and come up with an explanation that flies - I'm fluey at the moment and the brain is really not up to thinking.

If it helps put your finger on it, I come from a screenwriting/playwriting background - I have done novel-length fiction before, as well as short stories, but never (as mentioned elsewhere) erotica as such, or anything more than a sex scene in novel-length plain fiction.
 
fcdc said:
Nope, carbureted was intentional.



I have a question, in return. You keep on saying this, but don't provide me with any detail as to why the stories don't grab you emotionally. You just say they don't grab you - and that's all well and good, but why don't they? You may not be the optimal reader for my stuff, which is cool, but I'm not sure why they're not appealing emotionally. I mean, what do you expect out of a story that you don't get here?



The same as my normal fiction, people who like the same writers I do: Kosinski, Harlan Ellison, Carl Hiaasen, et al. People who like slightly ironic, honest, "tough" (for lack of a better word) writing. I'm not writing for the romance-novel crowd, for better or worse. I think my audience is fairly distinct and will probably recognize themselves in that description. I have a certain voice and I know what it is, so hopefully people will recognize themselves within that description - or outside of it.

I still don't understand the use of the word carbureted. Maybe you would like to explain it.

Your writing reminds me a of a guitar player I once knew. He was a child prodigy. When I met him as an adult, he was about as technically perfect as a musician could get. The problem was his playing was lifeless, there was no soul in it. Just technically perfect.
 
drksideofthemoon said:
I still don't understand the use of the word carbureted. Maybe you would like to explain it.

Your writing reminds me a of a guitar player I once knew. He was a child prodigy. When I met him as an adult, he was about as technically perfect as a musician could get. The problem was his playing was lifeless, there was no soul in it. Just technically perfect.
Good analogy, drkside. Even without the flu I doubt I would've been that clear.
 
drksideofthemoon said:
Your writing reminds me a of a guitar player I once knew. He was a child prodigy. When I met him as an adult, he was about as technically perfect as a musician could get. The problem was his playing was lifeless, there was no soul in it. Just technically perfect.

So... let me get this straight, you're saying in a story that deals realistically with two characters, kids in Chicago during the '68 convention, and treats their fling as exactly that - a fling - there's no life in there? There's no life in the haphazard dedication to the cause that Tom shows, or in Connie's uncertainty about sex? What, then, should I have done? Should they have hooked up and run off into the sunset? Should they have forged a deeper connection, where one was not warranted or deserved by the story itself?

I'm a bit confused, because honestly it seems like you're contradicting yourself in saying that 'your writing is technically perfect' and then 'your writing is emotionally flat.' Technically perfect writing isn't flat; it's vivid, interesting - all those things that you have (more or less) said, technically, that my writing is. Like I said, you may not be the right reader for my stuff, and that's fine, but I think that if you are affected by the writing itself and driven to comment, then it does have heart, passion, drive, all its own, even if it's a sort that you're unused to.

Like I said, I don't think I can be faulted for lack of an authorial voice. I think my stuff is recognizably mine, in tone. I think that it is concrete in theme, and at least reasonably formed in terms of characterization and plot. Writing that succeeds only on technical merits would lack that authorial voice.

What specifically are you and starrkers looking for in terms of "heart" that you don't get here? Like I said, I'm treating the characters realistically, and they are what they are - stupid, brave, foolish, scared kids in a conflict not of their own making. To have them stop to proclaim undying love would be unrealistic and would be unfair to them as characters, and other than that, I can't really see what you want. I have a terse, crisp style, and, like I said, I'm a bit loath to give up my own style and start writing on spec, for obvious reasons.
 
fcdc said:
So... let me get this straight, you're saying in a story that deals realistically with two characters, kids in Chicago during the '68 convention, and treats their fling as exactly that - a fling - there's no life in there? There's no life in the haphazard dedication to the cause that Tom shows, or in Connie's uncertainty about sex? What, then, should I have done? Should they have hooked up and run off into the sunset? Should they have forged a deeper connection, where one was not warranted or deserved by the story itself?

I'm a bit confused, because honestly it seems like you're contradicting yourself in saying that 'your writing is technically perfect' and then 'your writing is emotionally flat.' Technically perfect writing isn't flat; it's vivid, interesting - all those things that you have (more or less) said, technically, that my writing is. Like I said, you may not be the right reader for my stuff, and that's fine, but I think that if you are affected by the writing itself and driven to comment, then it does have heart, passion, drive, all its own, even if it's a sort that you're unused to.

Like I said, I don't think I can be faulted for lack of an authorial voice. I think my stuff is recognizably mine, in tone. I think that it is concrete in theme, and at least reasonably formed in terms of characterization and plot. Writing that succeeds only on technical merits would lack that authorial voice.

What specifically are you and starrkers looking for in terms of "heart" that you don't get here? Like I said, I'm treating the characters realistically, and they are what they are - stupid, brave, foolish, scared kids in a conflict not of their own making. To have them stop to proclaim undying love would be unrealistic and would be unfair to them as characters, and other than that, I can't really see what you want. I have a terse, crisp style, and, like I said, I'm a bit loath to give up my own style and start writing on spec, for obvious reasons.

No, in my opinion, there is no life in your story. I can't argue your authorial voice, I haven't read enough of your work to recognize it.

Writers can overwrite. They can become too involved with trying to find the perfect word for the perfect spot and they lose the magic the story had at first. A lot of the descriptive parts of your writing was overdone, and almost made it seem cartoonish.

I've read and reread your story about seven times now. I didn't find your characters realistic at all. I thought they were caricatures from another time. A lot of the dialog felt forced, and lacked the '60's' feel.

I don't see where either me, or my esteemed colleague, from the land of tomorrow, mentioned anything like 'undying love'. Your whole tone seems rather condescending.
 
drksideofthemoon said:
Writers can overwrite. They can become too involved with trying to find the perfect word for the perfect spot and they lose the magic the story had at first. A lot of the descriptive parts of your writing was overdone, and almost made it seem cartoonish.

Where was it overwritten? Please cite specifics.

I've read and reread your story about seven times now. I didn't find your characters realistic at all. I thought they were caricatures from another time. A lot of the dialog felt forced, and lacked the '60's' feel.

How is it cartoonish? Please cite specific places where the characterization or dialogue did not work. I don't have either one going around flashing peace signs in tie-dye, after all.

I don't see where either me, or my esteemed colleague, from the land of tomorrow, mentioned anything like 'undying love'. Your whole tone seems rather condescending.

Well then, what, specifically, were you seeking from it? You hit me with an 'I don't like this' but can't make it constructive?
 
fcdc said:
Where was it overwritten? Please cite specifics.



How is it cartoonish? Please cite specific places where the characterization or dialogue did not work. I don't have either one going around flashing peace signs in tie-dye, after all.



Well then, what, specifically, were you seeking from it? You hit me with an 'I don't like this' but can't make it constructive?
Look... you characters are flat, the story is boring. Go back in read it. The writing is perfect.

What these people are trying to tell you is - You have spent so much time writing perfectly, you've forgotten about the basics - Characterization and Plot.

You have charaterizations, but in the end we don't really know these people. You have plot, but it's contrived. You should concentrate on the characters and just let the story go where ever it wants. This story is like a set of detailed building plans - everything worked out in advance and constructed according to specs.

I can't be any more blunt. Now stop arguing.
 
fcdc said:
How is it cartoonish? Please cite specific places where the characterization or dialogue did not work. I don't have either one going around flashing peace signs in tie-dye, after all.

Tom didn't seem bothered by the denial. He started walking, the army bag swinging alongside him, his booted feet clunking as their metal soles hit the pavement. A hand reached up absently, scraping away his long hair from his face. "I can promise you something better to watch than a whole bunch of suited fascists and a few honest guys. Come with me."

Metal soles?

Back at the bus station, the hippies had been dressed far worse than he was. The shoe-length coat, army green and a few sizes too big, was of course a requirement, but his jeans were clean, and only one knee was ripped. Besides the too-long hair, he had a nice face, with deep-set, sparkling eyes and an energetic grin. 'Property is Theft,' proclaimed a patch on his motorcycle bag, and true to his word, it arced wide around him as he turned away from the bus, making him an easy target for pickpockets.

Why would he be wearing such a heavy coat in Chicago in August? It would be more likely that he would be wearing a surplus field jacket.

He would have responded, looking stunned at the idea. He stared at her, high and orgasmic, and his face was slack and stupid. His lips tried to form words, but it was taking a few moments for him to think. To Connie, as the drugs surged forward eagerly to replace the orgasm that they had fueled, something else would have to happen. They'd been high together, and they'd fucked in the middle of the park. They would have to create a new sensation.

Tom pried himself out of the haze first. He didn't address her offer. He had a new concern in mind. "We fucking act," he told her, his voice sharp and angry. "Tonight. We go with the rest of them to the Hilton. You want a story? You'll get it."


You have Tom and Connie drinking, smoking pot, and dropping acid. The way it reads, as soon as the sex is over, Tom gets over his high. Not very likely. Have you ever tried acid?

The hospital was sterile, and as lonely as the city had seemed the moment she had set foot on the street. Machines beeped all around her, nurses coming and going, police tromping through the halls like jackbooted Nazi caricatures. Nobody had bothered to arrest Connie yet; no cops had even come to speak to her. Her press pass had saved her. Her eyes still burned, but at least she could see now, even if tears clouded her eyes. She wasn't sure that all of them were caused by the pepper spray, either.

Jackbooted Nazi's. Somehow the vision of the Chicago Police goose-stepping down the hallways of a hospital seems a bit over the top.


I agree with Jenny's comments. Your characters are flat. You don't explore them and let the reader get to know them. The premise for your story is good, but poorly executed.
 
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I rarely venture outside the SDC, but I happened on this thread and almost wish I didn't. Not only do I agree with every word of drkside, starrkers, and jenny, but I'm appalled at the way their feedback is being returned.

Perhaps it's not wise of me to speak, as I'm not a 'Lit elder', but some sort of respect for people who take time to read one's work seems warranted at all occasions. How much 'evidence' they want to provide to back their opinions is up to them, and can only be asked for and not demanded.

The attempts at intellectual intimidation aren't likely to impress anyone, either. It's arrogant to assume that others haven't read your favorites or have otherwise questionable tastes, and fallacious to present them as an argument in favor of your own work. If everyone were as good as what they read, there wouldn't be one Ellison but hundreds of thousands of them.

Verdad, who has yet to spend a dime on romance novels
 
Verdad said:
I rarely venture outside the SDC, but I happened on this thread and almost wish I didn't. Not only do I agree with every word of drkside, starrkers, and jenny, but I'm appalled at the way their feedback is being returned.

Perhaps it's not wise of me to speak, as I'm not a 'Lit elder', but some sort of respect for people who take time to read one's work seems warranted at all occasions. How much 'evidence' they want to provide to back their opinions is up to them, and can only be asked for and not demanded.

The attempts at intellectual intimidation aren't likely to impress anyone, either. It's arrogant to assume that others haven't read your favorites or have otherwise questionable tastes, and fallacious to present them as an argument in favor of your own work. If everyone were as good as what they read, there wouldn't be one Ellison but hundreds of thousands of them.

Verdad, who has yet to spend a dime on romance novels
Ah, don't be too upset, Verdad-- this is creative discussion in action! When we get really intellectual, you have to duck the thrown bottles and chairs... ;)


And, in fact, the author has every right to ask for specific examples-- most especially if he or she is intent on understanding the criticisms.
 
Verdad said:
I rarely venture outside the SDC, but I happened on this thread and almost wish I didn't. Not only do I agree with every word of drkside, starrkers, and jenny, but I'm appalled at the way their feedback is being returned.

Perhaps it's not wise of me to speak, as I'm not a 'Lit elder', but some sort of respect for people who take time to read one's work seems warranted at all occasions. How much 'evidence' they want to provide to back their opinions is up to them, and can only be asked for and not demanded.

The attempts at intellectual intimidation aren't likely to impress anyone, either. It's arrogant to assume that others haven't read your favorites or have otherwise questionable tastes, and fallacious to present them as an argument in favor of your own work. If everyone were as good as what they read, there wouldn't be one Ellison but hundreds of thousands of them.

Verdad, who has yet to spend a dime on romance novels

How is it intellectual intimidation to reply to something asking whom my audience is with "people who read books like x, y, and z"? I'm a bit unsure how that should have been answered, rather than pointing out people whom I thought were in my style. Nowhere did I say I was as good as them - I simply said that they had a similar narrative style.

Asking for evidence on how something feels cartoonish, when someone just makes a blanket claim, isn't wrong. The simple claim, "this feels cartoonish," does nothing to address issues or to point out where it feels cartoonish. Neither does, "these characters are caricatures," without proving where, specifically, the characters feel like caricatures.

Critique without evidence doesn't help. Simply saying something is cartoonish doesn't help. That's OK that people think that, but why do they think that? That's what I was trying to get at, and why I posed the questions for further information, to try and figure out where drkside et al. were having problems and to address them if necessary.
 
drksideofthemoon said:
Metal soles?
Yup.

Why would he be wearing such a heavy coat in Chicago in August? It would be more likely that he would be wearing a surplus field jacket.
You don't know people who wear clothes wholly unsuited to the weather?

You have Tom and Connie drinking, smoking pot, and dropping acid. The way it reads, as soon as the sex is over, Tom gets over his high. Not very likely. Have you ever tried acid?
No, I haven't, but you seem to be placing a lot of weight in "Tom pried himself out of the haze first," in thinking that's milliseconds or what have you. It's not necessarily immediate.

Jackbooted Nazi's. Somehow the vision of the Chicago Police goose-stepping down the hallways of a hospital seems a bit over the top.

It is over the top. It is the impression of a 22-year-old who's just been knocked unconscious by the cops. "OH SHIT COPS ARE OUTSIDE" is a fairly obvious reaction to that, as well as hearing footfalls and thinking them to be Bad Guys.

I agree with Jenny's comments. Your characters are flat. You don't explore them and let the reader get to know them. The premise for your story is good, but poorly executed.

Once more - besides the cops, where are the characters flat? What read as flat or cliched to you? I'd like examples, like I've been asking for, so I can put my finger on the spot. Without that, I don't have anything to go on on your claim that they're flat.
 
Jenny_Jackson said:
You have charaterizations, but in the end we don't really know these people.

Details? Why don't you feel you know them? What are you missing to know them, that you didn't get?

You have plot, but it's contrived.

"Contrived," how? The riot in the end happened, as described. Everything else is fairly freeform, and in a short story, you have to have at least a tight plot. Meander and you lose it.

You should concentrate on the characters and just let the story go where ever it wants.

I respectfully disagree; I think plot is equally as crucial to a short story as character development, and that a short story without plot is unreadable because nothing happens. The story did go where it wanted. Where did you see it going, that it didn't go?

This story is like a set of detailed building plans - everything worked out in advance and constructed according to specs.

And what specifically is wrong with that? If the plans are showing, if you will, where are they showing? I think both Connie's and Tom's motivations to be at the riot are clear and valid, and their motivations to have sex are clear and valid, and Connie's motivation to go with Tom is clear and valid, personally, but of course I'd say that, having written the story. What specifically read like the author's work, rather than that of the characters?

I can't be any more blunt. Now stop arguing.

I wasn't arguing. I was asking for specifics on earlier critique. :)
 
starrkers said:
I have a similar problem to drkside: the stories don't grab me. I'm trying to figure out why.
There's a level of detachment -I feel like I'm watching through a plate glass window. I can see the characters and hear them, but I don't feel them.

I tried to get a feel for the story, but I struggled from the beginning.
There are a lot of descriptive words, but they did nothing for Me.
 
I saw this on the new lists, and I opened it up, curious. I started reading... but you lost me at: "The city was burnt and beaten, but it hunched alertly before Connie, a vast, bleak expanse of carbureted, incinerated metal."

It jolted me as a "trying too hard" sort of phrase. I rolled my eyes and clicked back. Done.

Then I came across this thread and you asking for feedback. Okay... I bit the bullet and decided to read all the way through.

The next sentence isn't much better in terms of trying too hard... "Some iron slabs stood tall and blunt like monoliths, while others had been forged and twisted into fanciful Gothic forms."

:eek:


Reading the next, I perked up: "She stood near the departure queue and heard the jake brake screech on the next bus in line to depart Chicago, many yards from where the buses heading into the city had dropped her off."

Okay! Here we go... people... character... now we're talking... still way too much telling in this sentence, but maybe...

and then...

Her shoulder ached already from having carried the knapsack through the rabbit warren of the bus station from the arrival depot.

The Loop was bustling, but impersonal and hurried: Nobody spoke a word to her, and no cabs came to pick her up. Workmen crowded the stations, but she could only overhear their gossip, not join in. They said both of the main cabbie companies were striking, and she wasn't surprised. Not a single taxi had driven past her since she had headed out the revolving door of the station, and she was dead in the middle of Chicago, surrounded by faceless robots and workaday zombies, and only a few hippie stragglers, dressed in the dregs of Salvation Army gear.

Ugh.
More telling.

The entire first section could go bye-bye as far as I'm concerned. Totally unnecessary. Doesn't do a thing for me, and doesn't advance your character at all. It simply gives tone, setting and background, all of which could be done in the next section.

The rest gets better... I don't mind your style. Short and terse isn't a bad thing. It's stuccato, but it's not bad. What stops me is I don't care... I didn't care if they had sex, I didn't care WHEN they had sex, I didn't care if they both ended up beaten to death...

You didn't make me care about either of these people. I know Connie a *little* better than I know Tom, but not much. Only because I get to see inside her head. This is one of those stories that appears impressive in a frame but doesn't hold up under closer scrutiny. It's like looking at some version of modern art that most people don't understand... everyone stands around and murmurs and nods, but no one is really feeling anything...

that's the problem here... there's no feeling... you've received the same general feedback all the way around, you can probably assume there's at least a marginal bit of truth in it. Even if people can't put their finger on WHY, the fact remains, it appears to be so.

By the way, just a stylistic thing... wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too many -LY words here... I counted 41 in a 4000 word story... using adverbs is fairly lazy, in terms of description... try not to use them.
 
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