Wed the "People"?

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SEMANTIC DIFFERENCES - Wed the People?
(In Order to Form a More Perfect Gay Union) - By GEOFFREY NUNBERG

N an interview last December, Howard Dean explained that Vermont had chosen to allow same-sex couples to enter into "civil unions" rather than "marriages" because "marriage is very important to a lot of people who are pretty religious." To the columnist George Will, Mr. Dean's remark reduced the debate over the public meaning of marriage to "merely a semantic quibble."

But the dispute over marriage is as purely semantic as they come, particularly in a society as obsessed with words as ours is. We may like to pretend that we're a people with no patience for quibbling over "mere semantics," but not even the medievals of Pierre Abélard's age spent as much time as we do chewing over the nuances of names, symbols, labels and titles. Hence our predilection for formulas like "the a-word," "the b-word" and so on, as every issue is reduced to a single controversial expression, from abortion, AIDS and amnesty to Zionism and zoning.

And what people have taken to calling "the m-word" is more charged than most, because it's what linguists and philosophers call a performative notion. Like christening a boat or adjourning a meeting, marriage is a state of affairs that can be brought about merely by pronouncing certain words in an appropriate setting -words that have traditionally conferred not just solemn rights and obligations, but permission to canoodle, too.

But our anti-semantic postures can make it hard to come clean about our semantic preoccupations. That may be why opponents of gay marriage often appeal to slippery slope arguments, as if altering the meaning of the m-word will threaten "the institution of marriage" itself. The phrase doesn't simply evoke other bulwarks of the social order that we describe as institutions, like the free press and Dick Clark. It also blurs the distinction between the concept of marriage and its actuality. For opponents, broadening the definition of marriage is like opening an exclusive hotel to package tours, with the risk that the traditional clientele will no longer feel like checking in. It amounts to "taking the rights and protection of marriage and handing them out willy-nilly," as Representative J. D. Hayworth, Republican of Arizona, recently put it.

Listening to arguments like those can make one sympathize with legislators in Massachusetts and elsewhere who are trying to find a way to confer the rights without the title, even if "civil union" ultimately comes down to marriage with an asterisk. Whether their reservations are personal or political, they're not pretending that anything more than "mere semantics" is at stake.

In the end, though, the meaning of "marriage" will be determined by the way ordinary people use the word, not the edicts of courts or legislatures. And popular usage can be surprisingly adaptable - as attitudes evolve, it has few qualms about modifying the traditional definitions of words, however sanctified they seem at the time.

Take "couple." The latest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary still defines the word as "A man and woman united by love or marriage." The phrase "homosexual couple" first appeared in The New York Times in 1967. "Gay couple" made its Times debut in the following year in a well-intended Sunday Magazine article called "Civil Rights and the Homosexual." (The writer urged tolerance of homosexuality "either as an emotional disorder or an unalterable sexual deviation," but stressed that "scholars of homosexual culture cannot foresee any equivalent of marriage for homosexuals.") Yet just a few decades later, reservations about referring to "gay couples" seem as quaint as that phrase "the homosexual," which reduced a group to a uniform anthropological type.

The meaning of "family" has been changing, too. The third edition of the American Heritage Dictionary, published in 1992, defines the word as "a fundamental social group typically consisting of a man and woman and their offspring." But when the fourth edition came out in 2000, the last part of the definition was altered to "typically consisting of one or two parents and their children." The new wording is descriptive, not prescriptive. Families today don't strike us as "atypical" simply because they don't conform to the domestic configuration of "Father Knows Best."

The definition of "marriage" is becoming more inclusive, as well. An edition of the Oxford English Dictionary appearing next year will define the word as "the legal or religious union of two people."

True, the resistance runs deeper here than with other words. But usage rarely stands on principle. As more same-sex couples are married in religious or civil ceremonies, sentences like "Jane and June have been married for 15 years" are bound to become part of the linguistic wallpaper of the media in the same way "gay couple" has. Whom God has joined together, People magazine is not about to put asunder.

At that point, we can talk about a genuine change in semantics - though there certainly won't be anything "mere" about it. And sooner or later, the legal forms will inevitably follow suit. As William Hazlitt wrote in 1830: "Laws and institutions are positive things" - that is, formally established arrangements - "while opinions and sentiments are variable; and it is in conforming the stubbornness and perversity of the former to the freedom and boldness of the latter, that the harmony and beauty of the social order consists."

Geoffrey Nunberg, a Stanford linguist, is heard on NPR's "Fresh Air" and is the author of the forthcoming book "Going Nucular" (Perseus, 2004).

NY Times 2.22.2004
 
I repeat what I said about the matter in another forum: I don't believe in marriage as a lifeform, but I defend people's right to marry whatever gender they want.
 
Hey Perdita - what's up with Arny over there? Who is anti-gay marriage in . . . what the gay state? LOL - OMGay wasn't he a muscle builder in Venice Beach?

See if I buy Terminator 1 -2 -3 -

God damn Barbarian!
 
CharleyH said:
LOL - OMGay wasn't he a muscle builder in Venice Beach?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

:cool:

(One of those Seinfeld phrases that has so many applications.)
 
Hey, Charlie. He's a dodo. Now he's pushing that the U.S. allow non-natural born citizens to be president. If ever! And in the non-smoking capitol of the world he wanted to turn an outside area in the capitol building into a "smoker's courtyard" so he can suck his cigars. What a total jerk and joke.

Perdita (very impressed with our new mayor)
 
shereads said:
Not that there's anything wrong with that.

:cool:

(One of those Seinfeld phrases that has so many applications.)

LOL - unless you are a straight woman trying to get laid I guess - LOL - nope ain't nothin' wrong with Venice Beach.:D
 
perdita said:
Hey, Charlie. He's a dodo. Now he's pushing that the U.S. allow non-natural born citizens to be president. If ever! And in the non-smoking capitol of the world he wanted to turn an outside area in the capitol building into a "smoker's courtyard" so he can suck his cigars. What a total jerk and joke.

Perdita (very impressed with our new mayor)

Perhaps Arnold from different stokes would have been a better governing choice? :rolleyes: LOL - sorry couldn't resist! I only lived there for months - I have no rights as a non-natural citizen. Perhaps it would help if I let my hair colour grow out? Au natural?

Charleyh for president?
 
The governor's office has always had a plain brass sign that read "Governor". AS had a new one made with the title followed by his full name, it's about 30' long. Only thing missing is a star.

Perdita
 
30' long - whoa - that's quite a size ;) There should be a star - lol -
 
So what we have is a bunch of people who want the exclusive rights to a single word in our language. Let them have it. We've completely lost the original concepts in our legal system anyway.

Marriage as the homo-phobic are arguing the point, is a religious convention. As such, all they have to do is condemn and excommunicate the members of their churches who don't agree with them and they can go pout all by themselves.

Marriage as it is upheld in our legal system is no more than a convenient shorthand for a specific set of contract laws. All marriages, legally speaking, are civil unions. Ask your 'pastor' or (fill in the blank) how come they can legally pronounce marriages: they've been licensed for the 'civil' part of the ceremony by the State.

If people decided to create legal partnerships with 50/50 voting power and had extensive verbage about what they intend to do if one party dies before the other (hey, a will!) and who gets what if they decide to dissolve the partnership (divorce). There really isn't much of a difference legally. As to the 'marriage contract' sanctioning sexual congress, well, you really can write anything you want to into a contract, but who knows what delicious evil lurks in the hearts (and other places) of men.

As to Arnie getting a chance to run for Pres, I'm already writing hate mail to the Hon. Orrin Hatch (and Arnie's not even a Mormon - someone please tell me his middle name starts with an 'S').
 
Marriage has been very eloquently defined by Robert A. Heinlein as: The union of two entities wherein the physical and emotional wellbeing of each is essential to the other.

No legal, political, or clerical requirements. Hell... they don't even have to be human!
 
I'm not a big fan of Arnold's, but to hear people here at AH define those who come from Venice Beach as being gay oriented is really a shame. It's like saying that all woman are bitchs in heat.

And also Arnold when asked what he thought of a new law about to be voted on that would allow citizens not born here in America, but having been citizens for over 20 years the right to become president said that he was for it.

And too, as an after thought, it was a state issue about gay marriages, and thereby law that the legal representative of the state, Arnold in this case, has to defend. It is his job to do that after all. The people of California voted on it, but he has to uphold the law, and so does the mayor who isn't, but that you admire so much.

Like I said, I'm not a big fan of Arnold's, but I do respect a person who does his job the way he is supposed to. And likewise I am disappointed in those who tell tales out of school that are blatent lies just to make someone look bad.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt man
 
Dirt Man said:
Like I said, I'm not a big fan of Arnold's, but I do respect a person who does his job the way he is supposed to. And likewise I am disappointed in those who tell tales out of school that are blatent lies just to make someone look bad.
Dirt, if you want to know how a governor lies to incite violence, please read my recent post on Couture's 'homework' thread. Also, as far as his job goes the governor does not have the right to order the attorney general to do what he recently asked.

Our mayor is challenging a law, that does not abide with our constitution, in the best way he thought fit. He's a young, smart man of integrity who is putting his values above politics.

Yes, it can all seem complicated, but our mayor is a true gentleman compared to the former Conan the Barbarian and Terminator who seems to have taken his movie roles beyond entertainment.

Perdita
 
perdita said:
Dirt, if you want to know how a governor lies to incite violence, please read my recent post on Couture's 'homework' thread. Also, as far as his job goes the governor does not have the right to order the attorney general to do what he recently asked.

Our mayor is challenging a law, that does not abide with our constitution, in the best way he thought fit. He's a young, smart man of integrity who is putting his values above politics.

Yes, it can all seem complicated, but our mayor is a true gentleman compared to the former Conan the Barbarian and Terminator who seems to have taken his movie roles beyond entertainment.

Perdita

So what you're saying here is that if someone else lies then it is okay if you or I do too, right? When ever did two wrongs = a right?

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man
 
ffreak said:
....Marriage as it is upheld in our legal system is no more than a convenient shorthand for a specific set of contract laws. All marriages, legally speaking, are civil unions. Ask your 'pastor' or (fill in the blank) how come they can legally pronounce marriages: they've been licensed for the 'civil' part of the ceremony by the State.

Well, if you want to call it a civil union and only let churches offer marriage, that's fine. And couples could go to the courthouse to get civil unions.

I think where the homophobes are going to have a problem is that because of the seperation between church and state, there would soon be churches marrying gay couples.
 
I say: next time, make Stallone governor instead!

I mean, come on, the guy once starred in a porn flick, he HAS to have a more liberal approach to sex-related politics!
 
Dirt Man said:
So what you're saying here is that if someone else lies then it is okay if you or I do too, right? When ever did two wrongs = a right?
No, that is not what I said, nor meant, and no to your second question.

Perdita
 
perdita said:
The governor's office has always had a plain brass sign that read "Governor". AS had a new one made with the title followed by his full name, it's about 30' long. Only thing missing is a star.

Perdita

Now Perdita, you know that during his body building days, ol' Arnie probably took a lot of steroids that shrank his testes. Maybe he needs to compensate with big signs and cigars.

I mean, gee whiz, he took a pay cut to help you folks out. Where's the love?

Ed
 
Oh, I'ver heard that Arnie packs a very normal 6-incher. It just looks much smaller due to his unproportional muscles.
 
Svenskaflicka said:
Oh, I'ver heard that Arnie packs a very normal 6-incher. It just looks much smaller due to his unproportional muscles.

He has a very good publicity agent, Svenska. :)

Ed
 
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