We aint got no electricity in Californation...we gotta get wired from Mexicanos....
- Thread starter Siren
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Endlessly
Corrupted Innocent
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Eh, with all of the environmentalists who got laws passed to keep from harming the environment in favor of creating some cheap, in-state elecricity.. These black and brown-outs ain't that much of a surprise.
Yes, Cali is the state that spawned Hollywood, but it's also the state that spawned the silly bitch who spent 2 years living in a tree and wrote a book about it.
Sorry, I outgrew my environmentalist stage in third grade.. But you get my point. *chuckle*
Yes, Cali is the state that spawned Hollywood, but it's also the state that spawned the silly bitch who spent 2 years living in a tree and wrote a book about it.
Sorry, I outgrew my environmentalist stage in third grade.. But you get my point. *chuckle*
SeXy ReDHeD
Literotica Guru
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That's what happens when you deregulate utilities like that and then implement a rate cap... what the Hell were they thinking?
Another uncovered Conspiracy from the Vast Center Wing
Well if you want to know the truth about the Californian electric system you merely have to hack into thier finanicial records and it becomes all to abundantly clear. Allow me to explain:
numbers based on 100 to amke explaination easy.
situation:
california produces 100 pounds of energy
california only uses 40 pounds of energy
california sells excess 60 pounds of energy for profit.
california sees that they are giving californias a very low cost energy per hour rate. this does not make much money.
solution:
sell 10 extra pounds of energy outside california
results:
makes more money in excess selling
cause a shortage in its own state
hike the per hour cost and then buy energy from somwhere else for half the price and pocket the other half of the money and lives happily ever after, whilst the people 'freeze' and have no choice but to pay a jacked up price.
cure:
picket and complain to the local government and boycott this travesy.
And thats the cover from the vast center wing conspiracy. and I am canadian and i can see this, can't the californians?
Well if you want to know the truth about the Californian electric system you merely have to hack into thier finanicial records and it becomes all to abundantly clear. Allow me to explain:
numbers based on 100 to amke explaination easy.
situation:
california produces 100 pounds of energy
california only uses 40 pounds of energy
california sells excess 60 pounds of energy for profit.
california sees that they are giving californias a very low cost energy per hour rate. this does not make much money.
solution:
sell 10 extra pounds of energy outside california
results:
makes more money in excess selling
cause a shortage in its own state
hike the per hour cost and then buy energy from somwhere else for half the price and pocket the other half of the money and lives happily ever after, whilst the people 'freeze' and have no choice but to pay a jacked up price.
cure:
picket and complain to the local government and boycott this travesy.
And thats the cover from the vast center wing conspiracy. and I am canadian and i can see this, can't the californians?
Exactly WHAT is the problem down there...I know that California has been plagued by low power...but why exactly...I thought their power was generated by hydroelectric dams. Last time I checked we dont have a shortage of running water. So what is it... Too many people or what? You Californians have much more fortitude than I...if my state kept having continual blackouts and the like...I woulda jumped ship LONG ago...loyalty be damned. Aw well...thank god for my Y2K supplies ^_^
CelestialBody
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No they can't. You'll have to wait till the power comes back on.
This is not just Calif's problem it affects us all..... because very soon they will start making all the electric producing plants everywhere sell (or give) their excess power to them and in return we will all get to pay higher rates.
Thank you Greenpeace & Sierra Club and all the rest of the enviromential wacko's.....
This is not just Calif's problem it affects us all..... because very soon they will start making all the electric producing plants everywhere sell (or give) their excess power to them and in return we will all get to pay higher rates.
Thank you Greenpeace & Sierra Club and all the rest of the enviromential wacko's.....
CelestialBody
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SeXy ReDHeD
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Bs said:
As if we're not paying enough right now. Sheesh.
And as for thanking Green Peace and the Sierra Club for clean air and water--whatever!
I work for the environmental department at the local utility here and we work very hard to make sure that our emissions and whatnot are safe. We also sponsor many green energy projects across the southwest, all without the hassles of annoying lobbies like Green Peace and the Sierra Club. From what I've seen they just cause problems.
I seriously doubt Greenpeace and Sierra Club are putting a dent in our pollution problems, and there ARE pollution problems. Trust me on this...even if Greenpeace lays a huge ass lawsuit down on a company its still more profitable to keep polluting then to clean up their act. Personally I wonder why more hasnt been put into trying to increase the use of solar power...I mean yeah everyone SAYS its weak...but look at computers 20-30 years ago...and look what human ingenuity did for them. If they wanted to they could find a way to up power production from solar cells...if this seires of events continues they may have to.
Then I guess we can all forward our excess electric bills to you?
And I did say, thank you....
Todd- why again is the goverment witholding California's Electric?
Oh Yea, so then they can implement the Standardize Health Care that has been so successful in Canada....
And I did say, thank you....
Todd- why again is the goverment witholding California's Electric?
Oh Yea, so then they can implement the Standardize Health Care that has been so successful in Canada....
CelestialBody
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To Celestial: Well I can understand that...but that doesn't mean that its a bad idea or we shouldnt work on it. If I told you 20 years ago the internet was a bad idea cause to really get anything done on it everyone would need computers as big as a room to work it, would I have been right? Ok granted we wont be running NYC using Solar Power any time soon...butI'm sure with improvements and new techniques here and there...we'll be able to get something viable out of the whole thing.
To BS: This is simple...so Bush can garner public support to justify oil drilling in federally protected lands. YeahI know that the two may technically have nothing to do with each other...but the public doesn't see it that way. They see "California is out of power, Oil makes power, Alaska has oil...sooo....WE NEED TO DRILL IN ALASKA FOR OIL!!!"
To BS: This is simple...so Bush can garner public support to justify oil drilling in federally protected lands. YeahI know that the two may technically have nothing to do with each other...but the public doesn't see it that way. They see "California is out of power, Oil makes power, Alaska has oil...sooo....WE NEED TO DRILL IN ALASKA FOR OIL!!!"
Laurel
Kitty Mama
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Darkstaff said:
I'll tell you why. Big Oil = Big Money. Do anything that takes money out of their pockets and see how much support you get. If we ran out of oil tomorrow, trust me - we'd have reliable energy alternatives in a year.
Our energy problems here in CA have nothing to do with "environmentalist wackos" (they wish they had that kind of power!) and everything to do with deregulation and the privitization of our utilities. No new power plants have been built in over 10 years, and our population and energy needs have grown and grown.
It cracks me up how Big Oil has used CA's problems to jab at environmentalists, and how everyone buys their line without ever stopping to think about how ludicrous it is. It's not a shortage of oil that's causing the problem, but a shortage of energy plants. Now the Big Oil companies will point to California as an example of why we need to drill for oil in wildlife refuges. And everyone will fall in line behind them like good little dittoheads. Then we'll go for their next vacation and have the nerve to be annoyed with the beach sand is black and sticky and the water's contaminated. We never learn...
Weird Harold
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CelestialBody said:
Headline News had a piece yesterday about the increased business for companies that install solar power systems. The cited an average installation cost of $45,000 dollars with a $12,000 rebate from the state. Not exactly what I would call cheap. One solar cell isn't very expensive, true. When you add the thousands together that are required to harvest enough power to run a house, the pennies add up real fast.
An interesting side-note to the story. They interviewed a man whose solar power installation is a net contributor to the power grid -- about 40% of what his home generates goes into the grid. The power company does not pay him for that power although his bill is only the base service charge of around $5.00.
CelestialBody
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CelestialBody
Starlet of India
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CelestialBody
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Sidenote
Weird Harold
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CelestialBody said:Do you know where they were buying from? What type of solar cell? (I'm curious)
The pictures just showed assembled 4x8 foot panels being installed to cover the entire roof of a building. The high cost was probably more the assembly of the panels, labor for installation, and the supporting batteries and converters.
Headline News isn't the best source for that kind of detail.
Bigdog
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Where to begin
I'm stuck right smack dab in the middle of this mess, so I will try to shed some light on the subject. My points are not in any order. Please excuse any typos, the heater is off.
The environmentalists are NOT the cause of this. The root of the problem is twofold: deregulation and market economy. Deregulation was implemented to create a competitive market that would keep rates low. Rates to consumers were fixed by the PUC, the utility companies would have to buy power as cheaply as possible if they wanted to continue making a profit at the rates they were forced to sell it at. the twist was that the utilities had to sell off their generating plants so every utility had equal access to power. The whole thing started collapsing when the generators realized that they now had a captive market for their power and quadrupled the price overnight. The big utilities were bound by law to provide their customers with power and yet couldn't charge the consumer what the power cost due to the rate cap. So they started taking losses, quickly adding up to billions of dollars of debt. Now the two biggest utilites are set to go bankrupt.
Even before deregulation, market economy was setting the stage for this fiasco. The utilites were not building any new power plants. It didn't make sense to spend millions of dollars on a plant that would cost $.20 per kilowatt hour when they could buy all they needed out of state for $.06 per kilowatt hour. they failed to anticipate what deregulation would do to supply prices. By the time they realized what was happening, it was too late. It take around 10 years to build a power plant from idea to first watts.
As for the hydroelectric issue, it has been dry in the Northwest where most of the really big hydroelectric dams are located. Even locally, my municipal utility gets 60% of their power from hydro and the 3 lakes they own are almost dry.
The Mexican power deal helps Southern California, but it doesn't helpup my way due to a 90 mile strech of the power grid that only has 2 wires (rest has 3). It will take almost 2 years to add lines if they start tomorrow. Right now the only entity keeping us from total darkness is Canada.
Adding to the problem is that PG&E is so strapped for cash that nobody will sell them natural gas anymore. Since a large percentage of the electric generating plants use natural gas, they have and will continue to reduce output. This further strains the power grid.
I've seen nuclear touted as a long-term solution but that is questionable. Yes, disposal of waste is a concern, but the biggest problem is plant design. I used to have Rancho Seco Nuclear Power Plant 50 miles to the south of me. Since it was municipally owned, when the voters said shut it down, down it went. We voted it closed not because of nuclear fears but because the damn thing was offline 75% of the time. It was a big hole to shovel money into. Kind of wish we had it now, though.
I can speak from personal experience about the cost to business because of blackouts. I work in a small machine shop in Sacramento. First blackout we had hit right in the middle of drilling some steel blocks, got to sit on my ass for 90 minutes until the lights came on, spent another 30 minutes fixing the machinery. This past Monday I spent 2 hours on the phone to Wisconsin trying to get another machine back up and running, when it was finally fixed after a software reload the tech told me the problem was most likely due to the power problems were are having. We are a small outfit, the larger companies around here are taking really big losses. One blackout occurred at lunchtime, imagine how much food was tossed out by restaurants because they couldn't keep it hot or cold.
I'm rambled long enough. Brother, can you spare a candle?
I'm stuck right smack dab in the middle of this mess, so I will try to shed some light on the subject. My points are not in any order. Please excuse any typos, the heater is off.
The environmentalists are NOT the cause of this. The root of the problem is twofold: deregulation and market economy. Deregulation was implemented to create a competitive market that would keep rates low. Rates to consumers were fixed by the PUC, the utility companies would have to buy power as cheaply as possible if they wanted to continue making a profit at the rates they were forced to sell it at. the twist was that the utilities had to sell off their generating plants so every utility had equal access to power. The whole thing started collapsing when the generators realized that they now had a captive market for their power and quadrupled the price overnight. The big utilities were bound by law to provide their customers with power and yet couldn't charge the consumer what the power cost due to the rate cap. So they started taking losses, quickly adding up to billions of dollars of debt. Now the two biggest utilites are set to go bankrupt.
Even before deregulation, market economy was setting the stage for this fiasco. The utilites were not building any new power plants. It didn't make sense to spend millions of dollars on a plant that would cost $.20 per kilowatt hour when they could buy all they needed out of state for $.06 per kilowatt hour. they failed to anticipate what deregulation would do to supply prices. By the time they realized what was happening, it was too late. It take around 10 years to build a power plant from idea to first watts.
As for the hydroelectric issue, it has been dry in the Northwest where most of the really big hydroelectric dams are located. Even locally, my municipal utility gets 60% of their power from hydro and the 3 lakes they own are almost dry.
The Mexican power deal helps Southern California, but it doesn't helpup my way due to a 90 mile strech of the power grid that only has 2 wires (rest has 3). It will take almost 2 years to add lines if they start tomorrow. Right now the only entity keeping us from total darkness is Canada.
Adding to the problem is that PG&E is so strapped for cash that nobody will sell them natural gas anymore. Since a large percentage of the electric generating plants use natural gas, they have and will continue to reduce output. This further strains the power grid.
I've seen nuclear touted as a long-term solution but that is questionable. Yes, disposal of waste is a concern, but the biggest problem is plant design. I used to have Rancho Seco Nuclear Power Plant 50 miles to the south of me. Since it was municipally owned, when the voters said shut it down, down it went. We voted it closed not because of nuclear fears but because the damn thing was offline 75% of the time. It was a big hole to shovel money into. Kind of wish we had it now, though.
I can speak from personal experience about the cost to business because of blackouts. I work in a small machine shop in Sacramento. First blackout we had hit right in the middle of drilling some steel blocks, got to sit on my ass for 90 minutes until the lights came on, spent another 30 minutes fixing the machinery. This past Monday I spent 2 hours on the phone to Wisconsin trying to get another machine back up and running, when it was finally fixed after a software reload the tech told me the problem was most likely due to the power problems were are having. We are a small outfit, the larger companies around here are taking really big losses. One blackout occurred at lunchtime, imagine how much food was tossed out by restaurants because they couldn't keep it hot or cold.
I'm rambled long enough. Brother, can you spare a candle?
CreamyLady
Uncompromising Visionary
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I listened to an apologist for the deregulators last night; he works for the entity that serves as a clearinghouse/auctioneer/broker for the utilities and the fuel suppliers. His statements were that of course it was everyone's fault but the people who set it up so that fuel was supplied by auction.
Last time I looked, an auction was supposed to drive up prices, not provide a choice of reasonable rates.
Clearly, this is another situation where everyone can take a slice or two of blame. Yes, more power plants needed to built, and the environmental groups could have compromised. Yes, deregulation is a one-way trip to higher prices and less competition; it should have been scrapped.
Equally, there was enough mismanagement and poor decisions on the part of the utilities themselves, and the fuel suppliers got greedy.
So, let's all take a piece of the damned blame and sit down and try to fix this disaster before it spreads. We can count on no help at all from the Oil Man in the Oval Office.
Honestly, perhaps the state should just secede.
Last time I looked, an auction was supposed to drive up prices, not provide a choice of reasonable rates.
Clearly, this is another situation where everyone can take a slice or two of blame. Yes, more power plants needed to built, and the environmental groups could have compromised. Yes, deregulation is a one-way trip to higher prices and less competition; it should have been scrapped.
Equally, there was enough mismanagement and poor decisions on the part of the utilities themselves, and the fuel suppliers got greedy.
So, let's all take a piece of the damned blame and sit down and try to fix this disaster before it spreads. We can count on no help at all from the Oil Man in the Oval Office.
Honestly, perhaps the state should just secede.
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