Wasting disease and deer in Wisconsin -- someone explain, please...

[BustyTheClown]

I saw on the news last night that hunters are all in a tizzy about wasting disease in deer, spreading across southwestern Wisconsin. They worry about the future of hunting, and want to destroy all the deer with the disease.

This scenario is riddled with problems and hypocrisy

First of all, I'm against hunting for sport, so I'm just pissed that the hunters are so worried about the deer's health now that their precious prey might not be as abundant next hunting season.

Secondly, hunters -- and people across the state -- have been complaining about the population explosion of the deer here, especially of late. Hunters use it as their explanation for killing [only the best-looking prize] deer. Drivers complain about how much damage deer do to cars when they run across the road and are hit (a valid complaint). Overall, it seems like people in Wisconsin want less deer.

So why is this wasting disease such a worry for them? It won't kill all the deer. It's nature's way of eliminating some of them. But man has to jump in and meddle with nature once again and save the deer only so they can be the ones to kill them.

Apparently, lots of small hunting towns rely on hunting season to thrive economically, so if there are less deer and less hunters next season, the towns will be at financial risk of failure. I suggest they find something less blood-thirsty to hold them up, like some sort of small tourist attraction. That, or live and function as a small town and get over it.

Let the deer die the natural way, I say. Fuck the hunters and let them deal with what nature intended for the deer population. I think they can handle not killing hundreds of animals for one fucking year. Go out and shoot people who can actually defend themselves -- then get arrested for being the murderers that you are.

I'm pissed.

 

[April]

I don't support hunting for sport. My feeling is that if you hunt, you should eat what you kill. But I think it's kinder (a bit) to kill the deer rather than let them die slowly and possibly painfully.

But then, I know darn near nothing about the wasting disease, so I could be wrong all the way around.

 

[Cheyenne]

I'm pissed.

As well as crazy. No sense arguing with a brick wall, I always say.

Enjoy your day!

 

[MissTaken]

What is the prognosis of this "wasting" disease?

How much of a threat is it to the deer population?

Is it likely to wipe it out? Is it contagious or harmful to human beings?

?????????? Very curious.


As far as a debate over hunting for sport is concerned, I won't go there. I was raised in the woods in a family of hunters. My father is a retired conservation officer after 25 years in the business. I was raised with an understanding for the sport as well as deer management. It isn't something I am likely to teach or share with any degree of effectiveness on this thread.

And, I don't judge other's choice in recreation. I don't believe it is my right to.

I am more interested in the disease itself. Have you any more information?

 

[MissTaken]

As well as crazy. No sense arguing with a brick wall, I always say.

Enjoy your day!

ROFL

I was trying to say the same thing in a bit more diplomatic fashion! Thanks, Cheyenne!



Oh and April, most hunters view venison as a prized delicacy. I haven't acquired a taste for it.

 

[BustyTheClown]

I am more interested in the disease itself. Have you any more information?

Here you go. Hope it helps.

Chronic Wasting Disease

 

[erosman]

I'm sure the net is full of info. Colorado is having an epidemic as well.

Chronic Wasting is related to Mad Cow disease. It is a brain spongeiform that is very contagious. It is the equivalent of Ebola or Hanta virus. There are no cures, and the prevalent approach is to kill all possibly infected animals to halt the spread. Of course, there it is a fearfully charged debate, that no one really has definite answers to. Sometimes, I think our technology has a way of scaring us even more.

 

[Cheyenne]

What is the prognosis of this "wasting" disease?

How much of a threat is it to the deer population?

Is it likely to wipe it out? Is it contagious or harmful to human beings?

?????????? Very curious.

I am more interested in the disease itself. Have you any more information?

It is a huge threat to the entire herd. The hunt is meant to save the herd, not destroy it. And they don't know if the disease can spread to cattle. Being the "dairy state" means we have a few cows in our countryside. We'd kind of like to keep them around.

Wasting disease has been discussed in the local paper for weeks. Here's today's article:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/may02/42759.asp

Magnitude of deer kill worries some
Residents fear stray shots, say DNR jumping the gun battling wasting disease
By LEE BERGQUIST
of the Journal Sentinel staff
Last Updated: May 11, 2002

Mount Horeb - Cathy Cunningham is a mother of four who takes a dim view of hunters roaming the countryside and shooting deer near her home this spring.

"I don't want to have the kids in blaze orange vests all summer long," she said.

Cunningham's farmhouse lies near the heart of a 287-square-mile zone where the state Department of Natural Resources wants to wipe out the entire deer population to stop the spread of chronic wasting disease.

For Cunningham and her neighbors, the hunt is a new spin on NIMBYism, the "not-in-my-backyard" ethos that is usually reserved for commercial projects that disrupt the local way of life.

"Initially, there was sort of shock - 'Oh my, do what you have to do,' " said John Donaldson, editor and general manager of the Black Earth News-Sickle-Arrow, which is in the zone.

"As time wore on, people starting thinking, 'Wow! They are going to kill all of the deer?' "

While there are many supporters of the hunt as well, the DNR's plans have engendered anger because of the difficulty of killing deer when leaves begin to grow. Some also say that the DNR's plan to kill thousands of deer in a 9-mile radius is too extreme - at least now.

Hunters could start killing up to 15,000 deer here this week - making it the most intensive state-sanctioned hunt in Wisconsin history.

As an added control measure, the DNR also wants to expand the fall hunt in 10 surrounding counties and cut the deer population in half.

Chronic wasting disease is related to bovine spongiform encephalopathy, also known as mad cow disease, and appears to be caused by an abnormal protein called a prion that invades the brain and eventually kills it.

In Wisconsin, the disease was first discovered Feb. 28 during random tests on deer shot during last fall's hunt.

Since then, state officials have rushed to develop a plan to control the disease and stave off any chance it will threaten deer hunting in Wisconsin - an industry that conservatively generates $233million in annual revenue and provides $25 million in license fees to the DNR.

But while the massive hunt in the zone was once set to start the week of May 6, the DNR has pushed back the date to this week or later because it has not yet found a place to dump deer that are killed.

Last week, Dane County effectively halted the shoot because officials said they needed to know more about how thousands of dead deer would affect the safety of the county-owned landfill. Those questions could be cleared up this week.

The DNR remains committed to a policy of wiping out the deer by relying mostly on landowners to kill as many deer as they can. Sharpshooters are likely to hunt deer on state land in the zone, and more drastic measures under study include shooting deer with the use of planes and helicopters.

Gov. Scott McCallum underscored the state's resolve on Friday at a meeting in Wisconsin Dells, calling the disease "the most serious animal health crisis in our history."

"CWD is similar to a lifeboat heading over a life-threatening waterfall on a slow-moving stream," McCallum told members of the Wisconsin Conservation Congress, which advises the DNR on outdoor and environmental issues.

"Our goal is to get every person in the affected CWD area rowing for the safety of the shore together."

There has been little opposition elsewhere, and some living in the affected area support the kill, saying the disease must be eliminated.

But those living in the zone who are opposed to the spring hunt are becoming increasingly vocal.

An opposition group has formed in the past week. Citizens Against Irrational Deer Slaughter wants to stop or slow the hunt. The group is threatening legal action.

"We think the DNR pulled the trigger too soon," said Mark Sherven, a former dairy farmer who owns 120 acres in the zone.

"We would like to see much more sampling and research on a quicker test (on deer for finding the disease). Then the DNR is going to get more landowner support."

So far, 14 of 516 deer sampled - 2.7% - have tested positive.

The Vermont Town Board plans to discuss a resolution Monday night that would oppose the DNR's plans.

Also, the Dane County Towns Association voted unanimously last week to discourage officials from dumping deer carcasses in Dane County landfills.

Aside from those who are opposed to the spring hunt, concern among others is rising, according to several political figures representing the area. They emphasized that almost no one thinks the DNR will get rid of all of the deer in this hilly region of forests and farms.

"I want to know who is going to shoot all of these deer and pull them out of woods," said Dane County Supervisor Vern Wendt of Mazomanie.

"Do we have the volunteer base at this time?"

Wendt owns 600 acres and represents the northern half of the zone. He will not hunt on his land this spring - and he will not let anyone else.

Normally, hunters gut their deer before hauling them out of the woods. But the DNR wants these deer intact, meaning a hunter could be forced to drag 150 pounds up a steep, thicketed slope and take it to a drop-off site before heading back for more.

"Look at the hills," deer hunter Bill Hanson said from his living room, which affords a sweeping view of a valley that is growing greener by the day.

"There's prickly ash and undercover coming up. It's hard enough to see the deer in the fall - now it's going to be practically impossible."

Hanson, who will not be hunting this spring on the 100 acres he owns and rents, thinks the DNR should wait until fall to start shooting deer.

But his primary concern is safety.

"Everybody wants to be outside now," said Hanson, a member of the Vermont Town Board and a retired Dane County deputy sheriff.

"They're riding bicycles, riding horses. Their kids are out in the yard.

"Somebody is going to get killed. I am a gun person, and I have been a gun person my whole life, and someone is going to killed."

Indeed, the valleys and ridge tops are dotted with new homes - part of Madison's outward migration. Much of the land is posted with signs that bar hunting. In nearby Mount Horeb, the population grew 42% in the 1990s to 5,960.

DNR officials think the spring hunt will be safe because only landowners - or people they allow on their land - can hunt.

Last year, seven people were killed by weapons during the state's gun deer hunting season, according to the DNR. That's the highest number since since 1997, when eight people died in such accidents.

The agency downplayed the possibility of an early big kill and is now saying that much of the shooting could take place in fall, rather than now.

"We are not harboring any secret hopes that it will be accomplished in 60 days," said spokesman Bob Manwell. "It will take longer than that."

Among Rita Stanton's concerns is the effect on the ecosystem of deer.

"We're thinking, 'Go slow, don't be radical,' she said. "It's going to change everything."

Nearly everybody has a story about the overpopulation of deer.

The Mount Horeb woman in whose front yard a doe gave birth to fawns.

Local newspaper editor John Donaldson, who said deer were so thick two winters ago that his dogs didn't even get up to chase them.

And hairdresser Patsy Hofstetter, who said a buck crashed through two windows of her house.

"It came right though the north window and went out a 9-foot, sliding patio door," Hofstetter said. Six thousand dollars damage in three seconds."

Wiping out deer will not harm the environment but will probably improve it, according to Thomas Yuill, director of the Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

Because of deer, "natural forest reproduction has been absolutely stopped," Yuill said. "Any time a new tree sticks up, a deer comes by and eats it."

The state's strategy to kill the local deer population and drastically thin the count in the surrounding area is aimed at saving Wisconsin's entire herd.

"I'm hearing the sooner we deal with this, the better," said Sen. Jon Erpenbach (D-Middleton), who represents part of the zone.

"Hunters don't want to just kill things. They have a tremendous concern about the deer herd."

Dairy farmer Keith O'Connell and two other relatives own a combined 800 acres in the Town of Vermont. One of the 14 deer that tested positive came from his brother's land, and four others tested positive just outside his family's land.

"It's here," O'Connell said. "We believe we have had a problem for years."

O'Connell's concern: The possibility that scientists will find that the disease can spread to cattle. O'Connell is lining up two dozen people he knows to shoot deer.

"It won't be fun," he said. "It's taken all of the sport out of it."

 

[alvin462]

hunting

I live in Pa. and I hunt . I eat what I shoot . Hunters dollars are welcome here as they buy land for all animals and people to enjoy . The game commision here improves habitat for all ,not only game animals. As for killing deer on the roads , SLOW DOWN ! If you know deer are in a given area slow down a few miles an hour . Give the deer and yourself a chance . A deer killed on the roar is wasted.

 

[RhumbRunner13]

Busty,

I'm not a hunter either and don't think I could shoot a "Bambi" under any circuntances.

The elimination of large predators that controlled the population of prey however, has created this major problem. As the deer population increases beyond natures ability to support it, some control becomes mandatory. No, it doesn't have to be hunting, but it will be something! You can stand by and watch them starve to death or weaken the species until nature provides a disease to thin the crop! The automobile works as well toward control, just that most people don't like the cost any more than they would the cost of introducing wolf packs and thousands of grizzlies to their neighborhoods.

Most hunting programs are designed very carefuly to thin the herd just enough to maintain the population at it's healthiest level by scientific study and a closely restricted quota system.

Which sounds more "humane" to you?

Rhumb

 

[MissTaken]

Thank you, Cheyenne and Busty.

That does help. It is a far more murky issue than I originally thought.

 

[Ishmael]

Ok, an attempt at reason.

Why are hunters concerned? Hunters are concerned because they are paying for all of the wildlife related studies, programs, land acquisition and managemment in the Untited States. Neither the general tax payer or the anti-hunting loud mouths contribute a sigle penny. Not one penny.

Hunters and fishermen, and women are more in touch with nature and the outdoors than the city dweller who talks a good story but generally speaking couldn't find their own ass in the woods. So it is quite natural for the outdoors people to be concerned. Seeing an animal waste away is not a pretty sight.

As the article has already shown, the disease has jumped species once. That means that all ungulates are at potential risk. Particularly those with bifurcated hooves, like cattle, sheep, goats, etc. Ungulate bred encyphalitis types of virus have also shown an afintiy to jump species to human hosts also.

The bottom line is that while hunters hunt and fisherman fish, their interest in the well being of the environment and the wild fish and animals that dwell therein is FAR greater than the air chair intiellectuals and the outdoors people happen to be picking up the tab to boot.

Ishmael

 

[MissTaken]

Good try, Ish!

Yes. I am a fisherman...fisher woman...fisherperson....whatever! I like it! I just fucking love fishing!


I love the sport, practice catch and release and eat what can't be tossed back.

My kids are fishing now, too.

Are we into killing things? No. There is no blood thirst in our family.

However, what we catch is regulated in such a fashion so as to ensure the balance of nature in the lakes and ponds.

As far as our love of nature and our respect for the gifts given, my children learn that we don't litter, we plant trees when we take them down, we keep our environment clean and safe etc.

Many non hunters and tree huggers are the first to throw a McD's bag or a cigarette butt out the window of the vehicle as they drive through my beloved Adirondack Mountains. Now, that...pisses me off.

 

[Cheyenne]

Hunters and fishermen, and women are more in touch with nature and the outdoors than the city dweller who talks a good story but generally speaking couldn't find their own ass in the woods.

I agree with everything you said, except I'd like to point out that "hunters, fisherman and women" are not mutually exclusive groups. It sounds like you don't think women are also hunters and fishers- guess again. Some of them are even city dwellers during most of the year.

 

[Ishmael]

I agree with everything you said, except I'd like to point out that "hunters, fisherman and women" are not mutually exclusive groups. It sounds like you don't think women are also hunters and fishers- guess again. Some of them are even city dwellers during most of the year.

Sorry it came out that way. You know damned well what I meant though.

Ishmael

 

[BustyTheClown]

Naturally, you are all right. I was just venting some steam. I can't understand violence that is anything other than self-defense, and I find it hard to identify with people who feel otherwise -- hunters included.

I suppose shooting the affected deer is the most "humane" way of thinning out the herd, protecting "ungular" animals, etc. I just wish there was another way -- and reading the article that Cheyenne posted, I think even the hunters feel that way.

Sorry if I came across strongly -- or crazily, Cheyenne -- I'm still naive about some things here in Wisconsin. Hell, I'm naive about most things here in Wisconsin, and I don't plan on staying here long enough to fully educate myself on how everything in this state comes together. Call it what you will, but as a student, I feel I have more important fish to fry. Hm, bad cliche.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful responses. I just hope this is all over quickly.

 

[Cheyenne]

I'm still naive about some things here in Wisconsin. Hell, I'm naive about most things here in Wisconsin, and I don't plan on staying here long enough to fully educate myself on how everything in this state comes together. Call it what you will, but as a student, I feel I have more important fish to fry. Hm, bad cliche.

Marquette student, by any chance?

It's too bad you don't want to get to know the people and the state a little better, as long as you're here already. You're missing a lot- it is a great place to live!

 

[Cheyenne]

Sorry it came out that way. You know damned well what I meant though.

Ishmael

Actually, I have to admit I didn't at the time I answered your post. I'm very used to people being surprised that I know how to fish and that I enjoy it. Women aren't "supposed" to enjoy that stuff, you know.

I did figure out your post meaning once I was standing in the shower and thought about it though. Oh- he meant fishermen and fisherwomen! I just don't usually use those PC terms. Fishermen covers all of us, in my mind.

 

[Myrrdin]

I read that link on Chronic Wasting disease. Nowhere does it say what the cause of CWD is. Be it virus, bacterial, mineral imbalance or genetic mutation etc etc. Until that is discovered, a cull is a very blunt tool to attack what could turn out to have a simple solution. To solve a problem you first have to know what the problem is.
Ther have been several mentions of similarities to Mad Cow Disease. The best scientific evidence at the moment suggests that MCD was caused by feeding the recycled proteins from abattoir leftovers back to cattle. It is not passed maternally from mother to offspring or by contact, from one animal to another. With the ban on feeding animal protein to herbivores the disease will die out on it's own.
Which suggests that CWD merely has the same symptoms as MCD rather than being related to it.

 

[RhumbRunner13]

Myrr....

"Chronic wasting disease is a fatal neurological disease found in deer and elk. It belongs to a family of diseases known as transmissible spongiform encephalopathies or prion diseases. The disease attacks the brains of infected deer and elk, causing the animals to become emaciated, display abnormal behavior, lose bodily functions and die. Besides being found in wild deer and elk, the disease has been found in captive deer and elk in five states and two Canadian provinces."



Do I read this wrong, or did you miss it?

How are the Brits handeling the MC outbreak?

Rhumb

 

[Ishmael]

I read that link on Chronic Wasting disease. Nowhere does it say what the cause of CWD is. Be it virus, bacterial, mineral imbalance or genetic mutation etc etc. Until that is discovered, a cull is a very blunt tool to attack what could turn out to have a simple solution. To solve a problem you first have to know what the problem is.
Ther have been several mentions of similarities to Mad Cow Disease. The best scientific evidence at the moment suggests that MCD was caused by feeding the recycled proteins from abattoir leftovers back to cattle. It is not passed maternally from mother to offspring or by contact, from one animal to another. With the ban on feeding animal protein to herbivores the disease will die out on it's own.
Which suggests that CWD merely has the same symptoms as MCD rather than being related to it.

The first thing that strikes me is that wild animals are NOT fed anything.

The second is that the disease is described as "transmissible". Either it has been diagnosed incorrectly, or it does move from animal to animal.

The last point is that at this stage very little is known about the pathogen. While it would be very reassuring to think you are right. The cost of your being wrong is far to high a price to pay.

It appears that many wildlife biologists, from many states are involved, as are their institutions of research and higher learning. These people have decided that culling of the infected animals is called for. I'll stick with their call for the time being.

Ishmael

 

[dickE]

Granted, it's bad enough now, but here's your worst nightmare:

Other Similar Diseases

Chronic wasting disease belongs to a family of diseases known as transmissible spongiform encephalopathies. Within this family of diseases, there are three predominant variants that affect animals: scrapie, which has been identified in sheep for more that 200 years; bovine spongiform encephalopathy in cattle (sometimes referred to as "Mad Cow Disease"); and chronic wasting disease in deer and elk. Within the family, there are also two main variants that affect humans: Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, which occurs naturally in about one out of every one million people; and New Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, which has been linked to the large-scale outbreak of bovine spongiform encephalopthy in cattle herds in Great Britain. Through that outbreak and the fact that the British consumed nearly 750,000 infected cattle during a 10-year period, approximately 100 humans have died to date after contracting New Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease.

These "variants" are what's scary as hell.

dickE

 

[Myrrdin]

Re: Myrr....

"Chronic wasting disease is a fatal neurological disease found in deer and elk. It belongs to a family of diseases known as transmissible spongiform encephalopathies or prion diseases. The disease attacks the brains of infected deer and elk, causing the animals to become emaciated, display abnormal behavior, lose bodily functions and die. Besides being found in wild deer and elk, the disease has been found in captive deer and elk in five states and two Canadian provinces."



Do I read this wrong, or did you miss it?

How are the Brits handeling the MC outbreak?

Rhumb

Disease is a catch all word to describe any condition that affects large numbers.
The extract says it is transmissable, but does not say how.

 

[Cheyenne]

Re: Re: Myrr....

The extract says it is transmissable, but does not say how.

Well, they don't want the deer to be gutted before dragging them out of the woods so that says they think disease may be spread by the blood, or something like that, right? I don't think they really know though.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Naturally, you are all right. I was just venting some steam. I can't understand violence that is anything other than self-defense, and I find it hard to identify with people who feel otherwise -- hunters included.

So, I'm assuming you're still a vegetarian... don't wear any leather... don't purchase anything that might have been made in a sweat shop, or was tested on animals... or uses technology that someone else gained from animal testing?

If there's a rampant disease (and I'm not sure this is rampant) that MIGHT be transferrable to humans, whether by eating the infected animal, or another means, then what do you suggest?

Are you willing to let the infected animals go ahead and spread the disease among the herd, so when a child you know samples some venison jerky over at lil Sally's house, she becomes infected?

I've said it before. We're predators. Not only do some of us choose to acknowledge that and enjoy pursuits that indulge that part of our nature, some of us actually feel responsible for maintaining healthy wildlife. Sometimes, it's not pretty.